342 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

First, an overview of previous games…

Unique Women Centric Content!:
Being sexually propositioned by a drunken, unattractive man who starts the conversation by ridiculing you.
Having your sex insulted by a pirate and drug lord.
Being able to solve a quest by sleeping with an elf that looks like this.
Meeting a man you've previously had a relationship with and learning he now has a new wife and has moved on.
Being hit on by a drunken virgin who looks like this.
Being threatened with rape.

Unique Man Centric Content!:
Having a threesome.
Later return to your homeland and make sure your child get his birthright.
Asking an attractive barmaid for a kiss.
Being able to solve a quest by sleeping with an elf that looks like this.
Saving your wife from being raped.

I know topics like this tend to prompt a defensive reaction, so I'm doing to start by saying that I don't think BioWare's writers are sexist, evil woman haters who hate women and want female specific content to suck. Moreover, while this thread is to discourage what I dislike, that’s not the same as saying it should never happen.

Moving on: There are some trends though that suggest women-specific content tends to be less desirable than men-specific content. I've purposely avoided any discussion of companion romances above. (That wasn't a Jacob reference at the beginning.) I think doing so is mostly pointless since you can't say 'Morrigan is a better romance than Alistar' or 'Tali is a better romance than Garrus.' I would ask that conversations about romancable companions or the number of romances straight women PCs get instead of straight men PCs stay out of the thread.

Problem: Why are you so ugly? -

I’m going to start with something shallow. NPC dudes who hit on female PCs tend to be ugly. NPC women who hit on male PCs tend to be good looking. Don’t tell me people have different standards of beauty, I already know that. It’s obvious that not only were the men above made to be unattractive, they are also supposed to be pathetic. Cammen is a whinny virgin who’s ****s dropped yesterday. Emile a desperate virgin who uses cheesy pick-up lines.

These scenes are not made in order for the female PC to feel sexy or charming. They’re jokes.

Alternatively, being a noble and having two women invite you in for a threesome? That’s pimpin. Gheyna is shown as a sexual conquest. When the Redcliffe barmaid kisses you, the men in the bar sit and stare. Why do they stare just because she’s giving you a kiss? So the player knows Bella is desirable and these other men are envious of the PC.

What I’d like to see instead:

If there’s male-specific content where attractive women (or men) hit on the PC and the game makes them feel ‘cool’ or ‘badass’ for having sex. Let there be female-specific content where attractive men (or women) hit on the PC and the game makes them feel ‘cool’ or ‘badass’ for having sex.

Notice, that an interaction where a female PC uses her flirty, womanly ways to get something she wants probably won’t qualify, though it’s better than nothing.

Problem: Sexual harassment is for Women –

This is not so much a BioWare problem as it is a Mass Effect problem, but I’ll mention it. I’m not fond of a guy showing he’s a bastard by making snide remarks about the PC being a woman or just being skeevy toward a female PC. Other women might find it cathartic to punch men like that out or insult them, but generally I see it as a reminder that even in fantasy land, one gender is seen as less than another.

Problem: The Violation of Women -

This could probably be its own thread, but since we’re all here.

Ridley Scott once said that one of the reasons he was interested in Aliens is that it turned the current slasher movie model on its head in that instead of us seeing young women being the victims of these bizarre and horrific acts, you mostly had male victims. IIRC, he specifically talked about symbolic male rape and literal male impregnation.

This is where you tell me “but the broodmother was awesome!” The broodmother was awesome. It was also an extended sequence where a woman narrates how she and other women gangraped, force fed dwarven flesh, and turned into bloated monstrosities whose entire purpose is to pop out babies.

This is where you tell me “but Mama Hawke’s death was touching!” It was touching. It was also an extended sequence (and series of quests) built around a man murdering and mutilating a group of women that ends with you mother being transformed into a necromantic horror.

This is where you tell me “but the City Elf origin showed how oppress the elves are!” And it did that. It also hinges on women, and only women, being rounded up like cattle so men can rape and/or murder them. That the PC can heroically stop this doesn’t change that this is gendered violence.

You even have this duality with Meredith and Orsino. Orsino’s transformation, while grotesque, is an expression of his choice and his power. Meredith never wanted to transform into a statue, and her transformation is tied into a lack of control.

In Return to Ostigar, we come upon King Cailan’s body. We have crucifixion, which suggests a noble martyrdom, and the game treats his dead body with reverence.

In my mind, there is a difference in how women’s bodies and men’s bodies are treated in the Dragon Age series. It makes me uneasy. Women’s bodies are the default for violation, especially sexual violation. And in both games now we’ve had long, unavoidable sections where we are given all the grisly details on how they were horrifically killed and altered.

Again, I’m not accusing anyone of being bad or ruining the game. These are well done and I understand why these choices are made.

At the same time, I would rather not see all of this in the next game.

[KiwiQuiche]

True, I get enough stigma because I'm female in real life, I really can't be bothered with it in a game even if it's 'realistic' or more 'immersive' or 'boobies' or whatever.

Some points I kinda think you are overthinking, like the Meredith and Leandra. With Meredith I just though "Crazy powerhungry nut" with Leandra it was "Crazy obsessive nut to show how teh eviluz all mages are". Didn't really notice the gender with those two parts.

[Terrorize69]

Maybe its me, but I feel Female PCs in BW games, mainly DA, get it better then Male PCs.

[Sejborg]

A female PC can flirt with Teagan, Cullen, Sebastian. Not all of the female flirting options are fugly. You seem to be forgetting those options.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Maria Caliban - You touch upon many things that are deeply etched into the public consciousness. How women are depicted, and have been depicted, is often not given a second thought or glance - it's sort of a given, often met by some (certainly not all) with a shrug.

But it's something that can be shifted, if even just by no longer sticking to the tired stereotypes, or by providing more balance between the genders. 

With regard to this...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Some points I kinda think you are overthinking, like the Meredith and Leandra. With Meredith I just though "Crazy powerhungry nut" with Leandra it was "Crazy obsessive nut to show how teh eviluz all mages are". Didn't really notice the gender with those two parts.

I can see why both Meredith and Leandra's stories were included in her list. Meredith doesn't seem to make a choice in her circumstances - what happens to her seems to be an amplification of her own fear and distrust, versus some stance that she decides to take, but that we see with Orsino. He draws the line in the sand and taps into darker forces, whereas circumstantial evidence for Meredith (templars reporting that she was heard talking to herself in her office) points to her being led/carried off by forces outside of her control.

And yes, for Leandra, we see the darker side of magic and one particular mage, but with women as the victims, women as the individuals that were manipulated and essentially destroyed. It just falls in line with a long history of women-in-media (stories, comics, movies, etc) as being victim versus victor. 

So, all in all, it would be nice to change that up a bit. Because the larger themes that are at work in the DA games are about, and wind up affecting, the people, regardless of gender. And having the balance in how that is depicted might better serve the overall story, imo.

[Rune-Chan]

I am all for gender equality, but whenever it comes down to arguments like these, the problem I see is that you could pretty much use any argument to favour any side if you really wanted to.

You could say "Why is it that only brothers betray their families, and not sisters?" because Bartrand betrays Varric, Carver can choose to join the Templars when you are a mage and Loghain betrays his son-in-law.

"Why are men seen as weaker sexually seeing as Isabela is a strong sexualised woman whereas people like Gamlen visit brothels?"

Neither are points I would personally choose to make, but that kind of thing can be done anywhere if you really want to. You could pretty much grab any example and make it seem like one gender is getting treated in a better or worse light than the other, if you delved deep enough.

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I can see why both Meredith and Leandra's stories were included in her list. Meredith doesn't seem to make a choice in her circumstances - what happens to her seems to be an amplification of her own fear and distrust, versus some stance that she decides to take, but that we see with Orsino. He draws the line in the sand and taps into darker forces, whereas circumstantial evidence for Meredith (templars reporting that
she was heard talking to herself in her office) points to her being led/carried off by forces outside of her control.

And yes, for Leandra, we see the darker side of magic and one particular mage, but with women as the victims, women as the individuals that were manipulated and essentially destroyed. It just falls in line with a long history of women-in-media (stories, comics, movies, etc) as being victim versus victor. 

So what's the alternative?

Make Orsino a female and Meredith a male just to avoid the issue? Or have them both male or both female characters so nobody can claim that it's sexist?

Make it so that your mother is dead, not your father so the father gets kidnapped? So nobody can claim it's a stereotype?

To not have any victims, or weak characters, or characters who have things out of their control?

Unless they are specifically choosing a gender for a specific reason or point, people are just looking for criticisms, where there is no basis for it.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:58 .

[KiwiQuiche]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Maria Caliban - You touch upon many things that are deeply etched into the public consciousness. How women are depicted, and have been depicted, is often not given a second thought or glance - it's sort of a given, often met by some (certainly not all) with a shrug.

But it's something that can be shifted, if even just by no longer sticking to the tired stereotypes, or by providing more balance between the genders. 

With regard to this...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Some points I kinda think you are overthinking, like the Meredith and Leandra. With Meredith I just though "Crazy powerhungry nut" with Leandra it was "Crazy obsessive nut to show how teh eviluz all mages are". Didn't really notice the gender with those two parts.

I can see why both Meredith and Leandra's stories were included in her list. Meredith doesn't seem to make a choice in her circumstances - what happens to her seems to be an amplification of her own fear and distrust, versus some stance that she decides to take, but that we see with Orsino. He draws the line in the sand and taps into darker forces, whereas circumstantial evidence for Meredith (templars reporting that she was heard talking to herself in her office) points to her being led/carried off by forces outside of her control.

And yes, for Leandra, we see the darker side of magic and one particular mage, but with women as the victims, women as the individuals that were manipulated and essentially destroyed. It just falls in line with a long history of women-in-media (stories, comics, movies, etc) as being victim versus victor. 

So, all in all, it would be nice to change that up a bit. Because the larger themes that are at work in the DA games are about, and wind up affecting, the people, regardless of gender. And having the balance in how that is depicted might better serve the overall story, imo.

Well I didn't view Orsino as 'incontrol' or anything; I just thought he was being weakwilled and spineless giving up so easilly XD

Leandra...well, women are beat, raped and killed in pandemic numbers by men, so I wasn't surprised she was killed by a man who had an obsession with her/her looks. It's the way life is, in a horrible way.

True, I wouldn't be adverse to changing it more.

[AsheraII]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Unique Man Centric Content!:
Having a threesome.

I'd just like to point out that you can make it a foursome for male players, while girls can have a threesome as well. (not sure if those can make it four, I thought they could?)

[Terrorize69]

I feel the need to mention this, Andraste was female.

I don't believe I need to expand on that

[StElmo]

I agreeeee

[Terrorize69]

AsheraII wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Unique Man Centric Content!:
Having a threesome.

I'd just like to point out that you can make it a foursome for male players, while girls can have a threesome as well. (not sure if those can make it four, I thought they could?)

Female PCs could have a foursome yes. Warden, Leiliana, Zev, Isabela.

[mousestalker]

There are plenty of gruesome, horrible ways to generate strong emotions without using the ones Maria listed. One further argument against using them is that it would be a re-use. Been there, done that, let's do something else.

Inverting one of those above would be an excellent way to affect the player while doing something fresh. A male Elisabeth Bathory would be an example of this.

[whykikyouwhy]

Machines Are Us wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I can see why both Meredith and Leandra's stories were included in her list. Meredith doesn't seem to make a choice in her circumstances - what happens to her seems to be an amplification of her own fear and distrust, versus some stance that she decides to take, but that we see with Orsino. He draws the line in the sand and taps into darker forces, whereas circumstantial evidence for Meredith (templars reporting that
she was heard talking to herself in her office) points to her being led/carried off by forces outside of her control.

And yes, for Leandra, we see the darker side of magic and one particular mage, but with women as the victims, women as the individuals that were manipulated and essentially destroyed. It just falls in line with a long history of women-in-media (stories, comics, movies, etc) as being victim versus victor. 

So what's the alternative?

Make Orsino a female and Meredith a male just to avoid the issue? Or have them both male or both female characters so nobody can claim that it's sexist?

Make it so that your mother is dead, not your father so the father gets kidnapped? So nobody can claim it's a stereotype?

To not have any victims, or weak characters, or characters who have things out of their control?

Unless they are specifically choosing a gender for a specific reason or point, people are just looking for criticisms, where there is no basis for it.

It's not so much that there needs to always be a flipside alternative so much as there should be an awareness of this sort of gender depiction. Meredith and Orsino could have been written in different ways - add some dialogue to show Meredith as having more of a say in what happened to her, that she took direction action. 

I don't really want to go down the path of how this or that could have/should have been done differently, because there are countless threads for that. But what I personally would like to see is that awareness - that small shifts can be added to any character and story, that how victims and victors are depicted can be changed, that there is fairness in how characters are written - so that we don't so much see the same stories applied to women or to men, be they good or bad.

Characters can be weak or strong, or any medley and mix in between, but when there is a leaning in one direction over the other, and it falls in line with how one gender has been depicted over decades, it gets troubling...and old.

The point I got from this thread is not to "look for criticisms" without basis. She provided the basis, she pointed out areas where the 'standard' depictions are evident. The point here was to put down what the hope for the future stories/games might be - that there can be a better balance achieved.

[Dirgegun]

While I understand your points and agree with them in some ways, I think the following is what makes me pause and think you're going a touch far...

This is where you tell me “but the broodmother was awesome!” The broodmother was awesome. It was also an extended sequence where a woman narrates how she and other women gangraped, force fed dwarven flesh, and turned into bloated monstrosities whose entire purpose is to pop out babies.

I think this decision was based on biology, pure and simple, rather than anything else. Women birth young. That is a simple fact. Yes, some scifi based horror and creepy as hell fanfic have mpreg themes, but Dragon Age isn't Aliens or those awkward fanfic. I wouldn't have taken that moment seriously at all if it turned into mpreg.

I don't think that moment is so much about the violation of women, but about how the darkspawn come from 'us'. They come from humans, dwarfs, elves and kossith. They aren't just these creatures that come from the Deeproads that no one really knows about. Instead the people they prey on are a part of their reproduction cycle. THAT is the horrific moment there. 

Remember when Alistair tells you that no one really knows where the darkspawn come from? Well, now you know. You might not know where the first darkspawn came from, but now you know where the rest come from. They come from your own damn races, and that, to me, is a damn haunting thought. 

[Rune-Chan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Meredith and Orsino could have been written in different ways - add some dialogue to show Meredith as having more of a say in what happened to her, that she took direction action. 

Characters can be weak or strong, or any medley and mix in between, but when there is a leaning in one direction over the other, and it falls in line with how one gender has been depicted over decades, it gets troubling...and old.

The point I got from this thread is not to "look for criticisms" without basis. She provided the basis, she pointed out areas where the 'standard' depictions are evident. The point here was to put down what the hope for the future stories/games might be - that there can be a better balance achieved.

But they wanted to show that she didn't have direct control. That was the entire point. Bartrand was also controlled by it without any input. So that argument using her as a female example is not a basis, because a male character was also powerless against it.

Orsino had control over what he did, yes, but that actually makes him worse than Meredith, as well as weaker. He had no direct need to resort to blood magic and chose to do it. That makes him far more malicious than Meredith and Bartrand, who were in the grip of something too powerful to resist.

You also can't really argue that genders are depicted in a specific way when some of the most powerful characters in the game are women.

Merril is not socially confident, but she will not let you sway her on her decision to remake the Eluvian. She has a strong sense of self belief.
Isabela is a captain, a leader, very sexually active, and very confident.
Aveline is headstrong, morally incorruptable, willing to take the hard road even if it costs her.
Your mother is strong and independent while Gamlen is weak and makes excuses.

You can't claim that women are depicted in a "negative light" when there are good and bad examples of them. That kind of attitude leads to box ticking, which is far more condescending and sexist than simply having some negative characters and storylines.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:19 .

[Direwolf0294]

I'm all for equality, but I think you're looking too much into some of these things.

[Terrorize69]

Machines Are Us wrote...

Merril is not socially confident, but she will not let you sway her on her decision to remake the Eluvian. She has a strong sense of self belief.
Isabela is a captain, a leader, very sexually active, and very confident.
Aveline is headstrong, morally incorruptable, willing to take the hard road even if it costs her.
Your mother is strong and independent while Gamlen is weak and makes excuses

Don't forget Andraste

[Dirgegun]

I can see why both Meredith and Leandra's stories were included in her list. Meredith doesn't seem to make a choice in her circumstances - what happens to her seems to be an amplification of her own fear and distrust, versus some stance that she decides to take, but that we see with Orsino. He draws the line in the sand and taps into darker forces, whereas circumstantial evidence for Meredith (templars reporting that she was heard talking to herself in her office) points to her being led/carried off by forces outside of her control.

Varric's brother fell to that same insanity, though. He might not have been a big bad or an end boss, but  he did fall to that same insanity and loss of reason. He was pretty male last time I checked too.

Orsino, I think, was pretty much a case of thinking he could control something when he couldn't. I didn't get the impression from the cutscene that he chose to become a big gnarly blob of fade fat. I got the impression that he turned to a power he thought he could control and, as it always turns out, failed quite miserably in controlling it.

I think in both cases, the two characters fell to their weaknesses. Weaknesses that were in their characters rather than their gender. Meredith fell to her distrust, suspicion and conspiracy theories. Orsino fell to his arrogance, the way he victimised himself, and the mental weakness that he couldn't stick to the principles he claimed to have in the face of possible defeat.

[Sainna]

I dont...understand.
Considering in what kind of a setting DA is, I am suprised women get off as easy as they do o.O If anything I find it amusing how Bioware despretly does try the ''Oh, yeah...men...women more or less equal'' x)

Guess I am a wierdo who does not mind the whole "Bwha, you are a wom-...! *nose broken by a plate clad fist*

[Sejborg]

Machines Are Us wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Meredith and Orsino could have been written in different ways - add some dialogue to show Meredith as having more of a say in what happened to her, that she took direction action. 

Characters can be weak or strong, or any medley and mix in between, but when there is a leaning in one direction over the other, and it falls in line with how one gender has been depicted over decades, it gets troubling...and old.

The point I got from this thread is not to "look for criticisms" without basis. She provided the basis, she pointed out areas where the 'standard' depictions are evident. The point here was to put down what the hope for the future stories/games might be - that there can be a better balance achieved.

But they wanted to show that she didn't have direct control. That was the entire point. Bartrand was also controlled by it without any input. So that argument using her as a female example is not a basis, because a male character was also powerless against it.

Orsino had control over what he did, yes, but that actually makes him worse than Meredith, as well as weaker. He had no direct need to resort to blood magic and chose to do it. That makes him far more malicious than Meredith and Bartrand, who were in the grip of something too powerful to resist.

You also can't really argue that genders are depicted in a specific way when some of the most powerful characters in the game are women.

Merril is not socially confident, but she will not let you sway her on her decision to remake the Eluvian. She has a strong sense of self belief.
Isabela is a captain, a leader, very sexually active, and very confident.
Aveline is headstrong, morally incorruptable, willing to take the hard road even if it costs her.
Your mother is strong and independent while Gamlen is weak and makes excuses.

You can't claim that women are depicted in a "negative light" when there are good and bad examples of them. That kind of attitude leads to box ticking, which is far more condescending and sexist than simply having some negative characters and storylines.

I agree. When it comes to the Dragon Age universe this criticism feels a bit unwarranted. There are so many strong female characters in DA universe. What about Anora, Morrigan, Flemeth? In my playthrough Anora and Morrigan ended up being the potentially most powerfull in Ferelden. Anora being a lone regent, and Morrigan having a god baby. And Flemeth might just be the strongest entity in the entire DA universe.

Lelliana is brought back in a powerfull position in DA2. Cassandra is introduced. The leader of the dalish clan is female. The second in line, Merrill, is also female.  

Sure. Some of the women have troubling backgrounds like Isabella. But it would be really lame if woman was only shown as being only powerfull and never being victimised. Some would probably like that, but I very much prefer all kind of both male and female characters.

Modifié par Sejborg, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:44 .

[Crypticqa]

Sainna wrote...

I dont...understand.
Considering in what kind of a setting DA is, I am suprised women get off as easy as they do o.O If anything I find it amusing how Bioware despretly does try the ''Oh, yeah...men...women more or less equal'' x)

Guess I am a wierdo who does not mind the whole "Bwha, you are a wom-...! *nose broken by a plate clad fist*

You shouldnt be suprised by this, its not a real world medieval fantasy...When creating character in Origins, one of the description says that men and women are equal in both military and daily lifes, if I am not mistaken, yet one character in Redcliff (forgot his name) is still having stupid comments how could woman be a Grey warden, it really doesnt make any sense

Modifié par Crypticqa, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:43 .

[CrazyRah]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Merril is not socially confident, but she will not let you sway her on her decision to remake the Eluvian. She has a strong sense of self belief.
Isabela is a captain, a leader, very sexually active, and very confident.
Aveline is headstrong, morally incorruptable, willing to take the hard road even if it costs her.
Your mother is strong and independent while Gamlen is weak and makes excuses

Don't forget Andraste

[NUM13ER]

Machines Are Us...
Orsino had control over what he did, yes, but that actually makes him worse than Meredith, as well as weaker. He had no direct need to resort to blood magic and chose to do it. That makes him far more malicious than Meredith and Bartrand, who were in the grip of something too powerful to resist.

I feel much the same about Orsino in this case. Furthermore Meridith did secretly acquire the idol to grant herself more power. Despite constantly lamenting the dangers of magic. So she did in fact contribute to her own end in a quest for greater power and control.

There are stereotypes indicative of both genders that I feel Dragon Age both addresses and even defies. Sexism is going to be present in the setting. There will be negative characters of both genders and furthermore some of it will reflect aspects of our own society. For instance one stereotype dominant in media is that men dying in droves is expected. It's hard to argue the male bodycount in both games isn't vastly higher. But it's the norm, we don't even register such a thing as being strange in Thedas, even when men and women both take up arms.

Directly related to that stereotype is what the OP is addressing, female death is thus treated as having more dramatic gravitas. Therefore the more horrific the death, the more dramatic payoff. At least thats the flawed thinking behind it.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:49 .

[Dirgegun]

Sejborg wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Meredith and Orsino could have been written in different ways - add some dialogue to show Meredith as having more of a say in what happened to her, that she took direction action. 

Characters can be weak or strong, or any medley and mix in between, but when there is a leaning in one direction over the other, and it falls in line with how one gender has been depicted over decades, it gets troubling...and old.

The point I got from this thread is not to "look for criticisms" without basis. She provided the basis, she pointed out areas where the 'standard' depictions are evident. The point here was to put down what the hope for the future stories/games might be - that there can be a better balance achieved.

But they wanted to show that she didn't have direct control. That was the entire point. Bartrand was also controlled by it without any input. So that argument using her as a female example is not a basis, because a male character was also powerless against it.

Orsino had control over what he did, yes, but that actually makes him worse than Meredith, as well as weaker. He had no direct need to resort to blood magic and chose to do it. That makes him far more malicious than Meredith and Bartrand, who were in the grip of something too powerful to resist.

You also can't really argue that genders are depicted in a specific way when some of the most powerful characters in the game are women.

Merril is not socially confident, but she will not let you sway her on her decision to remake the Eluvian. She has a strong sense of self belief.
Isabela is a captain, a leader, very sexually active, and very confident.
Aveline is headstrong, morally incorruptable, willing to take the hard road even if it costs her.
Your mother is strong and independent while Gamlen is weak and makes excuses.

You can't claim that women are depicted in a "negative light" when there are good and bad examples of them. That kind of attitude leads to box ticking, which is far more condescending and sexist than simply having some negative characters and storylines.

I agree. When it comes to the Dragon Age universe this criticism feels a bit unwarranted. There are so many strong female characters in DA universe. What about Anora, Morrigan, Flemeth? In my playthrough Anora and Morrigan ended up being the potentially most powerfull in Ferelden. Anora being a lone regent, and Morrigan having a god baby. And Flemeth might just be the strongest entity in the entire DA universe.

Lelliana is brought back in a powerfull position in DA2. Cassandra is introduced. The leader of the dalish clan is female. The second in line, Merrill, is also female.  

Sure. Some of the women have troubling backgrounds like Isabella. But it would be really lame if woman was only shown as being only powerfull and never being victimised. Some would probably like that, but I very much prefer all kind both male and female characters.

This.

Dragon Age has plenty of wonderful and strong female characters, and it has plenty of wonderful and strong male characters.  It is not sexist to throw in a couple of characters that are weak. It isn't, and in fact I want to see it. I want a well developed world with characters who come from different standings and different positions of power, be that personal, mental, physical or social power.    

[Fast Jimmy]

I agree with perhaps the overall tone Maria and others are trying to make, that women are often depicted in a victimized, sensationalized manner in all forms of media (not just Bioware). But I'm really not sure if this couldn't be done with, literally, every single other type of group.

Men are portrayed unfairly and disproportionately as soulless tormentors. A man is the one who storms in a City Elf wedding and who abducts women for rape, killing others with no qualms. A man is the one who betrays the Grey Wardens and commits regicide, throwing the country into chaos. A man is the one blows up the Chantry, causing many deaths and setting off a war that would result in hundreds, if not thousands, dying, all in the name of his political cause. A man uses his influence to keep his mentally ill son out of prison, even though said son kills young children.

To get outside of gender, affluent people are unevenly depicted as callous and elitist in DA games. Arl Howe is shown to be nothing but a greedy, manipulating man who will do anything (or convince Loghain to do anything) to achieve his drive for power, including torture, slavery, betrayal, murder and assassination. The more well-off craftsman of Redcliffe - the inn keeper, the blacksmith and the mercenary leader - are all self centered and unable to help, unless the Warden pushes them into doing so with rewards or with guilt. The noble owner of the mines in Kirkwall kidnaps and beats Ferelden refugees who have stolen money from him, despite the fact that it was to feed his family because said noble doesn't pay the miners a fair wage.

The poor could be depicted in lights of being too complacent. The educated could be depicted as being too aloof and uncaring. The guards... man, don't even get me started on how officers of the law IRL could RAIL against the terrible portrayals of guards in games.


Point being... yes, there is probably an uneven portrayal of EVERY group fitting into certain stereotypes. Its part of the narrative consciousness, after 10,000 years of telling stories, certain concepts, roles and paradigms will be in place. And, despite how hard a writer may want to avoid such stereotypes, it would ultimately be futile, as otherwise, the characters would be so foreign as to be unable to connect to them.

Because as others said, while there are a disproportionate number of "victim" females, there is also a LARGE number of strong female characters, characters which don't take **** from anyone, and which could serve as a model for other media to take some lessons from.

TL;DR: Not saying you don't have a valid opinion, but, at the same time, similar opinions could be applied to nearly every group, across the board. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't state your opinions, but also consider that the writers may not be able to avoid these types of roles in the future, even if they tried.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 octobre 2012 - 12:00 .