342 réponses à ce sujet

[Dirgegun]

robertthebard wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

Definitely not, but is there a reason media should encourage it? I'm not saying rape and the like should never be looked at from a story telling point of view, but to simply shrug off how women (and men) are treated in media and then claim anyone bothered by it needs a psychologist? That isn't cool. 

Lol.  I realize you're being serious, but this fits into:  My kid wouldn't have been a serial killer if there weren't so much violence on TV and in video games.  You see, this thread is railing against sexism, but the next step, if successful, will be violence.  The line needs to be established between fantasy and reality.  Otherwise, video games will start to be about how we solve all the problems in the world with cookies, not that I don't like cookies, but do you really thing the Archdemon would have bailed from the blight if we offered up enough Oreos?  Maybe he liked chocolate chip cookies better?

We have places like Walmart that won't sell music if it's not edited for language because parents can't be arsed to monitor what their kids are listening to.  We have the ESRB because people were worried about finishing moves in Mortal Kombat.  Where does censorship stop?  When will people be happy with everything that a company puts out?  When it's all as referenced in my first paragraph, where people never say harsh things to eachother, and it's all Hello KItty?

Video games don't set out to "encourage" this type of behavior.  If you believe they do, the the M rating applies to you.  These are mature themes, it's not that there might be an Alien Side Boob for your child to see, and that's the worst thing they can ever see, which is what attitudes like this lead to, but more of a "I don't want to monitor what my kids see, and so they shouldn't be allowed to include it in any way" position, and this is wrong.  The M rating implies that the people playing the game should be mature enough to understand that incidents presented in the game are not how one should approach life.  Some people get it, others don't, evidently, and instead of calling for the industry to cater to those, perhaps they should find other sources of entertainment.  If a medium isn't entertaining, I don't partake of it.  I despise Rap music, but I don't call for it to be eliminated, I don't listen to it, and the same applies to movies, books or games that don't suit my tastes.

......I'm not saying media encourages rape, and if you think I do then you haven't read any of my other posts or just took the above out of context. I think certain brands of feminism can be taken too far, and that there are stories where rape isn't just tact on and, instead, can make a very compelling plot. 

Media can encourage a certain mindset, though, or, at least, desensitise people to a certain mindset to the point that we stop questioning it. I was denfending someone who was bothered by certain issues, and who was replied to by someone saying they need a psychologist because they were bothered.

Edit for better word choice.

There is literally no way for me to take what you said out of context.  You point blank asked why media should encourage it.  I showed that it doesn't.  Portrayal is not encouragement.  Since violence is portrayed in this series, is that the next thing that needs to go?  I mean, if portrayal is encouragement, then violent video games encourage violence against other people, right?  As to desensitizing, yeah, when I hear about somebody I don't know getting killed, or violated in some way, it doesn't bother me as much as when I hear about it with somebody I do know.  This isn't really being desensitized as much as it is "I don't know them".  This doesn't mean it doesn't bother me, just that it's not as personal, and frankly, I was the same way when the most violent game I played was Pong.  I didn't need my parents to tell me that carrying a gun to school and shooting all the students was a bad thing.  Their upbringing taught me that w/out having to go into specifics.  The TV was not my babysitter.  People leave their kids to it now, and then want to blame TV/Music/Video Games for how their children react, simply because they don't want to take responsibility for it.  It's not media that's to blame, it's parenting.

Ah, my apologies that I wasn't clearer, then. I wasn't talking about rape but women being portrayed as objects or conquests, which is a mentallity that can be, at least in part, encouraged -- or, maybe it's more that media doesn't bother to challenge this way of thinking and instead agrees with it?

Just know that I fully agree that media and violent games don't encourage violence, and that it has everything to do with the psychology of the person. I'm just... terrible at wording what I mean, I guess.

Modifié par Dirgegun, 24 octobre 2012 - 04:22 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

Emzamination wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Then you're just being willfully ignorant if you can't see how portraying a male degrading and talking down to a female in order to get what they want is sexist.

Sexism...You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

A game could allow you to snatch a dozen women of the street and force them to be sex slaves without necessarily being sexist.

Okay

...First of all the most important point:
1.) Having sexism in a medium does not equal the medium being sexist.

Considering PS:T:
2.) The Nameless One manipulated everyone and you've got the opportunity to manipulate everyone in the game.
This includes males and females.

PurebredCorn wrote...
Thank you for pointing out these things so eloquently, Maria. You're absolutely right and I'm glad you brought it up. And, honestly, (if one is to use the ignorance in this thread as a barometer) it can never be mentioned enough.

People who disagree with you are obviously ignorant.

[Terrorize69]

JCAP wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Here, I'll quickly illustrate for you since you are obviously male and don't know any better.

Was this necessary?

Of course. Male privilege means that a man will rarely understand the opppression of many women, unless they decide to study the subject themselves, something that not many do.

I forgot that men are incapable of and unwilling to understand the perspectives of others.

And they say men are sexist.

Theres always sexism on both sides, the only difference is, apprentaly its ok for women to be sexist to men but the otherway round is taboo.

I'm fully against sexism against both sides and its sad that a large sum of people who speak out against men being sexist to woman, will always resort to being sexist against men to fight their case.

But it seems to be normal, men are apprentaly meant to take any sexism towards them as a joker or a bit of banter.

[Sejborg]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

I always figured women were targeted for these things because, culturally, women are treated as more valuable than men. Putting a woman under threat of kidnap or rape is a way to instill fear and stimulate those protective instincts and give a sense of danger. Showing a man being murdered as opposed to a woman (extra drama points if they're pretty and young!) invoke reactions of much different levels. Writers are trying to go for those heartstrings and that innate reaction is a well-used tactic.

This is very true. Imagine Texas Chainsaw Massacre with a male lead instead of a female. It would just be straight up weird. 

Well, it's a horror movie, isn't it? Isn't the point to make you uncomfortable?

Yes, of course. And seeing women being brutally murdered is per default more uncomfortable than seing men being brutally murdered.

Unless the characters personality first have been established. Then everything is up in the air, as to what would be the most uncomfortable.

[Battlebloodmage]

Some of the highest positions in the chantry belong to females, the high dragon can only be females, the awesomeness that is Flemmeth is also female. DA is a lot of things but sexism is not one of them. In fact, most of the slimbags in the game are males.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Vandicus wrote...

Well I don't think there are any circumstances where rape of any gender should be treated casually. There are novels out there that have male on male as subject matter, and I find that they generally treat it seriously. But I also generally find that male on female rape is treated seriously in novels. I thought that the DA games did treat them fairly seriously, such that the game made it feel justified to kill the rapist(s). Course I joined this whole thing part way through and have mostly being addressing the concept of simply taking the male cultural/media portrayal and using it for females, so I apologize if I'm somehow speaking in a nonrelevant fashion in my responses.

Male on male rape is actually typically treated as a joke with little more respect than someone slipping on a banana peel. Rape is a horrific crime that should never be inflicted on anyone, but in media as well in real life the subject of prison rape is treated largely as a joke and frequently, to go a step further, that whoever it's inflicted upon DESERVES it. Imagine a story where a woman, even as a villain, was going to be thrown into a rape dungeon for the rest of her life as punishment and then everybody laughed about it? That would be incredibly disturbing to hear, but if it's male-on-male then it's just garden variety toilet humor.

Modifié par DaringMoosejaw, 24 octobre 2012 - 04:20 .

[Fiacre]

Droma wrote...

raising to cautious is the way to go and that's what I'm talking about. the point was that someone posted you should fear every man and treat him like a potential rapist. and that has nothing to do with cautious. that is straight out fear. and raising your kid that way goes to far. and i totally agree that sexuality isn't a choice. the point is that if you raise your daughter in fear of men, how should they be able love one?

Is there such a big line between raisng someone to fear assault when out alone while it's dark, and my mother having insisted that I never walk the 500 metres from my friends house home alone while it's dark? Or her having been openly worried about me going home alone after my art class? And I live in a small town, where any big crime is highly shocking and practically everyone knows my father (even if he doesn't know them). And in both cases, I walk down the biggest (and best lit) street in the whole town.

In any case, I don't think that is what that poster actually meant, and plenty of heterosexual women manage to love a man just fine, whatever their experiences.

[Sainna]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I agree with perhaps the overall tone Maria and others are trying to make, that women are often depicted in a victimized, sensationalized manner in all forms of media (not just Bioware). But I'm really not sure if this couldn't be done with, literally, every single other type of group.

Men are portrayed unfairly and disproportionately as soulless tormentors. A man is the one who storms in a City Elf wedding and who abducts women for rape, killing others with no qualms. A man is the one who betrays the Grey Wardens and commits regicide, throwing the country into chaos. A man is the one blows up the Chantry, causing many deaths and setting off a war that would result in hundreds, if not thousands, dying, all in the name of his political cause. A man uses his influence to keep his mentally ill son out of prison, even though said son kills young children.

To get outside of gender, affluent people are unevenly depicted as callous and elitist in DA games. Arl Howe is shown to be nothing but a greedy, manipulating man who will do anything (or convince Loghain to do anything) to achieve his drive for power, including torture, slavery, betrayal, murder and assassination. The more well-off craftsman of Redcliffe - the inn keeper, the blacksmith and the mercenary leader - are all self centered and unable to help, unless the Warden pushes them into doing so with rewards or with guilt. The noble owner of the mines in Kirkwall kidnaps and beats Ferelden refugees who have stolen money from him, despite the fact that it was to feed his family because said noble doesn't pay the miners a fair wage.

The poor could be depicted in lights of being too complacent. The educated could be depicted as being too aloof and uncaring. The guards... man, don't even get me started on how officers of the law IRL could RAIL against the terrible portrayals of guards in games.


Point being... yes, there is probably an uneven portrayal of EVERY group fitting into certain stereotypes. Its part of the narrative consciousness, after 10,000 years of telling stories, certain concepts, roles and paradigms will be in place. And, despite how hard a writer may want to avoid such stereotypes, it would ultimately be futile, as otherwise, the characters would be so foreign as to be unable to connect to them.

Because as others said, while there are a disproportionate number of "victim" females, there is also a LARGE number of strong female characters, characters which don't take **** from anyone, and which could serve as a model for other media to take some lessons from.

TL;DR: Not saying you don't have a valid opinion, but, at the same time, similar opinions could be applied to nearly every group, across the board. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't state your opinions, but also consider that the writers may not be able to avoid these types of roles in the future, even if they tried.

It's ridiculous how much I agree with this post.

And I think you made some really excellent points too, MC. These gender expectations are so heavily ingrained in our society from so young that I doubt it's something the writers ever intended, but it is there. That's probably part of why the characters that break that mold are so memorable.

 - Morrigan, for instance, isn't going to be anybody's victim.
- Athenril leads the smuggling ring - not a man.
- Serrah Guinness, although a jerk, slaughters those Tal Vashoth like a boss, and takes the place of aggressor over Seamus, who is the helpless male victim. It's essentially a "rescue the princess" quest with the typical gender roles reversed.
- Leaders in the Chantry can only be female. Because, reasons.
- Petrice and Meredith both boss men around regularly.
- Isabela captains her own ship.
- Aveline becomes captain of the guard
- Arguably the most powerful person in Thedas is a woman - Empress Celene.
- In reality, the (likely) most powerful person in Thedas is also a woman - Flemeth.

I also love that we rescue Keran, Emeric, and Cullen from trouble. Female templars appear, but they've so far not been in need of saving.

But the crux of the point you're making still holds a ton of weight, and I'm really glad that you said it. We do tend to expect women to be victims. And I love that you're not saying "Bioware, how dare you?!!", but rather "I'd love it if that trend didn't continue." And I completely agree.

Lovely posts.

[FINE HERE]

Um... did anyone bring up that templar in the Cirlce who's completely under the Desire demon's control and trying to drain him of his life? Cause, you know...

[Xilizhra]

People who disagree with you are obviously ignorant.

A great many of them here are.

Um... did anyone bring up that
templar in the Cirlce who's completely under the Desire demon's control
and trying to drain him of his life? Cause, you know...

Demons are asexual.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 octobre 2012 - 04:23 .

[FINE HERE]

Xilizhra wrote...

Um... did anyone bring up that
templar in the Cirlce who's completely under the Desire demon's control
and trying to drain him of his life? Cause, you know...

Demons are asexual.

Yeah, but still, it's a MAN being attacked and a victim. Just adding it to the list.

[The Elder King]

FINE HERE wrote...

Um... did anyone bring up that templar in the Cirlce who's completely under the Desire demon's control and trying to drain him of his life? Cause, you know...

I remember reading somewhere that the desire demon is considered neutral in gender, though I don't remember who and when.

[Xilizhra]

FINE HERE wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Um... did anyone bring up that
templar in the Cirlce who's completely under the Desire demon's control
and trying to drain him of his life? Cause, you know...

Demons are asexual.

Yeah, but still, it's a MAN being attacked and a victim. Just adding it to the list.

Actually, I don't think his life was being outright drained.

[JCAP]

Xilizhra wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Um... did anyone bring up that
templar in the Cirlce who's completely under the Desire demon's control
and trying to drain him of his life? Cause, you know...

Demons are asexual.

Yeah, but still, it's a MAN being attacked and a victim. Just adding it to the list.

Actually, I don't think his life was being outright drained.

of course not, why would a demon do that?

[robertthebard]

Dirgegun wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

There is literally no way for me to take what you said out of context.  You point blank asked why media should encourage it.  I showed that it doesn't.  Portrayal is not encouragement.  Since violence is portrayed in this series, is that the next thing that needs to go?  I mean, if portrayal is encouragement, then violent video games encourage violence against other people, right?  As to desensitizing, yeah, when I hear about somebody I don't know getting killed, or violated in some way, it doesn't bother me as much as when I hear about it with somebody I do know.  This isn't really being desensitized as much as it is "I don't know them".  This doesn't mean it doesn't bother me, just that it's not as personal, and frankly, I was the same way when the most violent game I played was Pong.  I didn't need my parents to tell me that carrying a gun to school and shooting all the students was a bad thing.  Their upbringing taught me that w/out having to go into specifics.  The TV was not my babysitter.  People leave their kids to it now, and then want to blame TV/Music/Video Games for how their children react, simply because they don't want to take responsibility for it.  It's not media that's to blame, it's parenting.

Ah, my apologies that I wasn't clearer, then. I wasn't talking about rape but women being portrayed as objects or conquests, which is a mentallity that can be, at least in part, encouraged -- or, maybe it's more that media doesn't bother to challenge this way of thinking and instead agrees with it? Thus we have the teenage douchebags that wolf whistle at girls that walk past, and a rape culture that exists that doesn't think that pervy behaviour can be dangerous until it's too late. 

This is the crux of the problem I have with it where DA is concerned; yes, some non plot essential women can be treated this way.  However, if the PC is female, she can literally stand all of this on it's head, and looking at Thedas in general, lots of very prominent, and very powerful people in the setting are women.  Some of the stereotypical situations laid out by the OP about men in these games don't always fit, either.  As much as I hate to say this, but one of my femHawkes was more of a sexist than any of my mHawkes ever was.  The same can apply to my Wardens as well.  However, as a female PC, I could slap all these "women are weak/sex objects" positions down.  I certainly don't view the women in my life in that light, or they wouldn't be in my life, by their own choice.

So despite how the OP sees the games, I don't see them the same way.  I differentiate from her opinion because of the fact that there are indeed women in the setting that do not fit, and some of them are so far away from it as to be ridiculous.

[Dirgegun]

hhh89 wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

Um... did anyone bring up that templar in the Cirlce who's completely under the Desire demon's control and trying to drain him of his life? Cause, you know...

I remember reading somewhere that the desire demon is considered neutral in gender, though I don't remember who and when.

Neutral in gender like the Asari are asexual?

...No, really. I get what you mean, but I couldn't help the joke.

[robertthebard]

Xilizhra wrote...

People who disagree with you are obviously ignorant.

A great many of them here are.

Um... did anyone bring up that
templar in the Cirlce who's completely under the Desire demon's control
and trying to drain him of his life? Cause, you know...

Demons are asexual.

...and?  So so long as the perpetrator of violence is asexual, it's ok, and the fact that it's a male victim meaningless?  Would your response have been different if it had been a female Templar?  Just getting a feel for how far the sexism is going to run here.

[Emzamination]

Aolbain wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Aolbain wrote...

o

Emzamination wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Oh I see, you've never played Planescape torment. Carry on.

Of course I've played PS:T.

Then you're just being willfully ignorant if you can't see how portraying a male degrading and talking down to a female in order to get what they want is sexist.

But is the other way around sexist? Or male to male? Female to female?

Of course it's sexist and If the Nameless one could of been female I'd still argue the same point.The difference however is that there is a world history of men manipulating and shaming women to get what they want which makes it particularly sensitive.

I have not played PS:T so I cant argue that specific point but if a get your message correctly no fiction can ever portray a man do anything bad to a woman, becaus that woud be sexist. Could the same be said about a white PC abuse a black NPC. Or a rich PC (as they have a tendency to become) trying to mainpulate a poor NPC.
Wouldnt that be racism and classicism?

No, of course not.I'm sorry, I figured you were familiar with the game.The example I used was of two people in a relationship with the TnO having the possibility of manipulating and degrading the female via the relationship  effectively making her subserviant to her lover and putting her in her place.It's difficult to explain without access to the immediate dialogue.

As per your other examples, it all really depends on the motive and circumstances of the abuse between the white & black npc.As with the rich and poor npc, again circumstance and motive.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Is this thread even about video games anymore?

[Vandicus]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Is this thread even about video games anymore?

In the sense that its about media portrayals of men/women and gender roles, and that video games are a form of media, yes.

[Dirgegun]

robertthebard wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

There is literally no way for me to take what you said out of context.  You point blank asked why media should encourage it.  I showed that it doesn't.  Portrayal is not encouragement.  Since violence is portrayed in this series, is that the next thing that needs to go?  I mean, if portrayal is encouragement, then violent video games encourage violence against other people, right?  As to desensitizing, yeah, when I hear about somebody I don't know getting killed, or violated in some way, it doesn't bother me as much as when I hear about it with somebody I do know.  This isn't really being desensitized as much as it is "I don't know them".  This doesn't mean it doesn't bother me, just that it's not as personal, and frankly, I was the same way when the most violent game I played was Pong.  I didn't need my parents to tell me that carrying a gun to school and shooting all the students was a bad thing.  Their upbringing taught me that w/out having to go into specifics.  The TV was not my babysitter.  People leave their kids to it now, and then want to blame TV/Music/Video Games for how their children react, simply because they don't want to take responsibility for it.  It's not media that's to blame, it's parenting.

Ah, my apologies that I wasn't clearer, then. I wasn't talking about rape but women being portrayed as objects or conquests, which is a mentallity that can be, at least in part, encouraged -- or, maybe it's more that media doesn't bother to challenge this way of thinking and instead agrees with it? Thus we have the teenage douchebags that wolf whistle at girls that walk past, and a rape culture that exists that doesn't think that pervy behaviour can be dangerous until it's too late. 

This is the crux of the problem I have with it where DA is concerned; yes, some non plot essential women can be treated this way.  However, if the PC is female, she can literally stand all of this on it's head, and looking at Thedas in general, lots of very prominent, and very powerful people in the setting are women.  Some of the stereotypical situations laid out by the OP about men in these games don't always fit, either.  As much as I hate to say this, but one of my femHawkes was more of a sexist than any of my mHawkes ever was.  The same can apply to my Wardens as well.  However, as a female PC, I could slap all these "women are weak/sex objects" positions down.  I certainly don't view the women in my life in that light, or they wouldn't be in my life, by their own choice.

So despite how the OP sees the games, I don't see them the same way.  I differentiate from her opinion because of the fact that there are indeed women in the setting that do not fit, and some of them are so far away from it as to be ridiculous.

Yeah, I agree for the most part!

I edited my post too, because I'm a horrible editer when I feel I'm not saying something right, but I just want to point out again that I don't think violence in games and the like turns people into killers (same goes for rape and rapists). That's all to do with their psychology. I'm just horrid at explaining what I mean.

Sorry for the misunderstanding and any edgey tone that I had with you! 

Modifié par Dirgegun, 24 octobre 2012 - 04:36 .

[Emzamination]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Then you're just being willfully ignorant if you can't see how portraying a male degrading and talking down to a female in order to get what they want is sexist.

Sexism...You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

A game could allow you to snatch a dozen women of the street and force them to be sex slaves without necessarily being sexist.

Okay

...First of all the most important point:
1.) Having sexism in a medium does not equal the medium being sexist.

Considering PS:T:
2.) The Nameless One manipulated everyone and you've got the opportunity to manipulate everyone in the game.
This includes males and females.

Of course it does.The sexism is being portrayed as part of the game.

Pointless. The nameless one wasn't in a relationship with everyone in game nor did he have the same dialogue with them.The example I used was of tno using agression and degradation to make a woman he was involved with subserviant to him.I believe one of the things he can say is something along the lines of do what I say or I shall love you no longer.

Modifié par Emzamination, 24 octobre 2012 - 04:46 .

[Fast Jimmy]

RinjiRenee wrote...]

No, I don't think you get it at all.

Men never have to worry about being sexually assaulted.  Not that it doesn't happen, but women are sexually assaulted and killed every day merely based on the fact that they are women.  No other reason. 

I bowed out of this thread a while ago for fear of stirring up the pot, but I have to scratch my head at this one. 

In the real world, women are targeted for sexual and violent acts. So, in a fantasy world, you'd like men to be targeted just as likely/often, or have no one committed these acts against at all?

Im not saying a good story needs violence, rape, murder, etc. But when you say stories CAN'T include certain elements, then that hampers the ability to tell a story. 

So is the point that in video games, men should be targeted more than they are in reality (according to your own statement) or that these topics should never be discussed, period?

[Xilizhra]

...and? So so long as the perpetrator of violence is asexual, it's ok, and the fact that it's a male victim meaningless? Would your response have been different if it had been a female Templar? Just getting a feel for how far the sexism is going to run here.

What, even, is your point? That there's systematic female-on-male violence portrayed positive in DA? I would seriously contest that, so I doubt that's what it is.