342 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Dirgegun wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

There is literally no way for me to take what you said out of context.  You point blank asked why media should encourage it.  I showed that it doesn't.  Portrayal is not encouragement.  Since violence is portrayed in this series, is that the next thing that needs to go?  I mean, if portrayal is encouragement, then violent video games encourage violence against other people, right?  As to desensitizing, yeah, when I hear about somebody I don't know getting killed, or violated in some way, it doesn't bother me as much as when I hear about it with somebody I do know.  This isn't really being desensitized as much as it is "I don't know them".  This doesn't mean it doesn't bother me, just that it's not as personal, and frankly, I was the same way when the most violent game I played was Pong.  I didn't need my parents to tell me that carrying a gun to school and shooting all the students was a bad thing.  Their upbringing taught me that w/out having to go into specifics.  The TV was not my babysitter.  People leave their kids to it now, and then want to blame TV/Music/Video Games for how their children react, simply because they don't want to take responsibility for it.  It's not media that's to blame, it's parenting.

Ah, my apologies that I wasn't clearer, then. I wasn't talking about rape but women being portrayed as objects or conquests, which is a mentallity that can be, at least in part, encouraged -- or, maybe it's more that media doesn't bother to challenge this way of thinking and instead agrees with it? Thus we have the teenage douchebags that wolf whistle at girls that walk past, and a rape culture that exists that doesn't think that pervy behaviour can be dangerous until it's too late. 

This is the crux of the problem I have with it where DA is concerned; yes, some non plot essential women can be treated this way.  However, if the PC is female, she can literally stand all of this on it's head, and looking at Thedas in general, lots of very prominent, and very powerful people in the setting are women.  Some of the stereotypical situations laid out by the OP about men in these games don't always fit, either.  As much as I hate to say this, but one of my femHawkes was more of a sexist than any of my mHawkes ever was.  The same can apply to my Wardens as well.  However, as a female PC, I could slap all these "women are weak/sex objects" positions down.  I certainly don't view the women in my life in that light, or they wouldn't be in my life, by their own choice.

So despite how the OP sees the games, I don't see them the same way.  I differentiate from her opinion because of the fact that there are indeed women in the setting that do not fit, and some of them are so far away from it as to be ridiculous.

Yeah, I agree for the most part!

I edited my post too, because I'm a horrible editer when I feel I'm not saying something right, but I just want to point out again that I don't think violence in games and the like turns people into killers (same goes for rape and rapists). That's all to do with their psychology. I'm just horrid at explaining what I mean.

Sorry for the misunderstanding and any edgey tone that I had with you! 

I didn't notice.  I enjoy conversations where common ground can be achieved, and nobody has to resort to "noob this" or "noob that".  Thankis for engaging me in this dialog.

[robertthebard]

Xilizhra wrote...

...and? So so long as the perpetrator of violence is asexual, it's ok, and the fact that it's a male victim meaningless? Would your response have been different if it had been a female Templar? Just getting a feel for how far the sexism is going to run here.

What, even, is your point? That there's systematic female-on-male violence portrayed positive in DA? I would seriously contest that, so I doubt that's what it is.

My point, quite simply, was that since it's a male victim, it's "Poo Poo, let's just sweep this under the rug under the pretense that the aggressor of mind rape is asexual".

[Joy Divison]

Dhiro wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Here, I'll quickly illustrate for you since you are obviously male and don't know any better.

Was this necessary?

Of course. Male privilege means that a man will rarely understand the opppression of many women, unless they decide to study the subject themselves, something that not many do.

I forgot that men are incapable of and unwilling to understand the perspectives of others.

Glad to help.

Your "help" is a disservice to what is an otherwise noble objective.  It's a shame you don't see that.

[Terrorize69]

I'm curious... there seems to be a lot of double standards going on here, so I wonder how people will respond to this line, a man saying...

"I would never strike a female"

[Xilizhra]

robertthebard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

...and? So so long as the perpetrator of violence is asexual, it's ok, and the fact that it's a male victim meaningless? Would your response have been different if it had been a female Templar? Just getting a feel for how far the sexism is going to run here.

What, even, is your point? That there's systematic female-on-male violence portrayed positive in DA? I would seriously contest that, so I doubt that's what it is.

My point, quite simply, was that since it's a male victim, it's "Poo Poo, let's just sweep this under the rug under the pretense that the aggressor of mind rape is asexual".

I'm not "sweeping it under the rug," but it's a fairly isolated incident in the game universe compared to the things that have happened to women.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Semantics.

Pointless. The nameless one wasn't in a relationship with everyone in game nor did he have the same dialogue with them.The example I used was of tno using agression and degradation to make a woman he was involved with subserviant to him.I believe one of the things he can say is something along the lines of do what I say or I shall love you no longer.

Semantics!? Alright, this is pointless. By your definition, a man doing something bad to a woman at any point in a medium makes it sexist.

...his manipulating her had nothing to do with him enforcing a gender stereotype or wanting her to be subservient simply because she's a woman. He wanted her to be subservient because he deems her useful, just as he tries to make everyone he deems useful subservient. He uses whatever means necessary to do so. In this case, it was her love for him. This has jack **** to do with him being a sexist. And as I've pointed out before: Even if he were sexist, it would not make the medium itself sexist.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Joy Divison wrote...

Your "help" is a disservice to what is an otherwise noble objective.  It's a shame you don't see that.

Talking to it is exactly what it wants, you know. You don't make inflammatory sweeping generalizations like that unless you want attention.

[FINE HERE]

Seriously, some of these arguements in here almost make me ashamed to be a woman.

It's a story. You know, like books or movies? It's part of the story-telling experience! If everyone in the story were likeable and good people, it would be boring. There needs to be people who are disgusting and unappealling to make you get into the game more and to make you either dislike them or hate them. They're not there to be role models. They're mostly villians.

If a male quest giver wants you to save his kid brother but he hits on you while asking for your help, does that affect whether or not you save the kid? If a woman calls you a worthless male not worthy of her time but then later on in the game BEGS you for your help, would it make you ignore her? If you see a man verbally assault his wife after she nearly gets their son killed, do you step in and defend the woman or do you agree with the man but try to calm him down?

Sure, it seems like women are victims more often than the men, but there are way more powerful women in there too. Andraste is the easiest to name, since, you know, a lot of people say her name. The Divine, Grand Clerics, etc... Their religion is led by women. If your PC is a female in DA:O, she becomes the HERO OF FERELDON, and in DA2, you even become the CHAMPION. You make the strong female role model for Thedas, and prove all those jerks that belittled you that you're better than them.

These things are put into stories to stir up some emotion in the reader/viewer. And seeing how most of you are offended, I assume they worked.

[Vandicus]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

I’d also like to take this moment to point out that I find it amusing when people get upset over a woman defensively saying something like, “You’re a man and you don’t get it…” thus people jump down her throat for stooping to her own level of sexism.

The fact of the matter is… sexism toward women is so much more severe than that. If all people ever did to us was say, “You’re a woman and you just don’t understand…” that would be preferable to what we actually put up with. I can’t wait at the bus stop without someone saying sh*t like, “What’s your phone number?” Or (this one I got the other day), “How you doin, sexy body?”

And even those are harmless, albeit obnoxious. I was at an Oktoberfest celebration in the park, and some guy came up to me and told me, “Hey you should go jump on that trampoline since you’re wearing a skirt.”

Now how in the f*ck can I match that in public? How can I equal that out? I want to leave my house and go up to men and tell them to shake their d*cks for me, ok? I want to eyeball them until they start to feel uncomfortable, then corner them when everyone else at the bus stop has disappeared and ask for their phone number. I want to follow men to their cars and ask if they have a girlfriend, then comment on their physical appearance as I ask them if they like this or that sexual innuendo. I want to watch a guy walk into a bar, sit down next to him, ask him personal questions, buy him a drink, and assume his politeness means that’s a greenlight for me to f*ck him later.

I want to watch a man tell a joke, but I won’t laugh, and then I’ll attribute it to the fact that “men simply aren’t good at telling jokes”. Then later I’ll hear the same joke told by a woman and declare that she’s the funniest motherf*cker around.

I want to open up an auto-repair shop and charge men higher prices for car repairs and oil changes simply because they must not know jacksh*t about auto repair.

I also want to laugh moronically at any man who says the phrase “oil changes” because of the 10th grade sexual innuendo that he so naively didn’t realize he said.
I hope people understood what I did here… (these were all based on my personal experiences, gender roles switched of course…)

So, if I understand correctly, because some people are sexist, it is desireable to match their sexism? If its not that, I'm totally missing whatever point this is supposed to make.

[Dirgegun]

Terrorize69 wrote...

I'm curious... there seems to be a lot of double standards going on here, so I wonder how people will respond to this line, a man saying...

"I would never strike a female"

I, personally, think the only time striking someone is okay is when the circumstances involve self defence or the defence of another. No matter the gender.

...Unless we're also talking playful punches to the arm? In which case I do that, and am totally okay with the guys I know doing that to me. It's playful and not meant to harm, after all.

Modifié par Dirgegun, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:01 .

[Xilizhra]

These things are put into stories to stir up some emotion in the reader/viewer. And seeing how most of you are offended, I assume they worked.

Offended at the creators? Not, I assume, the reaction they wanted, unless they're trolls.

[Emzamination]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Semantics.

Pointless. The nameless one wasn't in a relationship with everyone in game nor did he have the same dialogue with them.The example I used was of tno using agression and degradation to make a woman he was involved with subserviant to him.I believe one of the things he can say is something along the lines of do what I say or I shall love you no longer.

Semantics!? Alright, this is pointless. By your definition, a man doing something bad to a woman at any point in a medium makes it sexist.

...his manipulating her had nothing to do with him enforcing a gender stereotype or wanting her to be subservient simply because she's a woman. He wanted her to be subservient because he deems her useful, just as he tries to make everyone he deems useful subservient. He uses whatever means necessary to do so. In this case, it was her love for him. This has jack **** to do with him being a sexist. And as I've pointed out before: Even if he were sexist, it would not make the medium itself sexist.

I edited my post a bit ago.

Wow...I'm not in the habit of repeating myself so I'll let you wallow in your ignorance.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

You are not understanding correctly whatsoever. I'm demonstrating that women typically DO NOT match their sexism. And whenever a woman reacts defensively, saying, "Well... you're just a man..." then we're b*tched at for "being sexist" when in all reality it was reactionary, as well as MUCH less severe than the sexism we put up with. (see above and switch the gender roles). 

If I walked around doing everything that I illustrated in my post, then I'd look like a complete a**hole. Obviously I DON'T do those things and would never want to. The post was littered with sarcasm. 

Consequently, the people who acted in the way you described were complete ****s. And they would've deserved whatever you could've said to them.

However, people jump on a woman who says stuff like 'Men can't possibly understand' because they're being impugned for something they didn't do. Insult someone, then when they ask why you did tell them it's because you were pissed off at Steve. No matter how justified you were at being pissed at Steve, that someone is probably not going to like you for degrading them for something they, personally, have not done.

[slimgrin]

FINE HERE wrote...

Seriously, some of these arguements in here almost make me ashamed to be a woman.

It's a story. You know, like books or movies? It's part of the story-telling experience! If everyone in the story were likeable and good people, it would be boring. There needs to be people who are disgusting and unappealling to make you get into the game more and to make you either dislike them or hate them. They're not there to be role models. They're mostly villians.

If a male quest giver wants you to save his kid brother but he hits on you while asking for your help, does that affect whether or not you save the kid? If a woman calls you a worthless male not worthy of her time but then later on in the game BEGS you for your help, would it make you ignore her? If you see a man verbally assault his wife after she nearly gets their son killed, do you step in and defend the woman or do you agree with the man but try to calm him down?

Sure, it seems like women are victims more often than the men, but there are way more powerful women in there too. Andraste is the easiest to name, since, you know, a lot of people say her name. The Divine, Grand Clerics, etc... Their religion is led by women. If your PC is a female in DA:O, she becomes the HERO OF FERELDON, and in DA2, you even become the CHAMPION. You make the strong female role model for Thedas, and prove all those jerks that belittled you that you're better than them.

These things are put into stories to stir up some emotion in the reader/viewer. And seeing how most of you are offended, I assume they worked.

This one gets it.

[Vandicus]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

I’d also like to take this moment to point out that I find it amusing when people get upset over a woman defensively saying something like, “You’re a man and you don’t get it…” thus people jump down her throat for stooping to her own level of sexism.

The fact of the matter is… sexism toward women is so much more severe than that. If all people ever did to us was say, “You’re a woman and you just don’t understand…” that would be preferable to what we actually put up with. I can’t wait at the bus stop without someone saying sh*t like, “What’s your phone number?” Or (this one I got the other day), “How you doin, sexy body?”

And even those are harmless, albeit obnoxious. I was at an Oktoberfest celebration in the park, and some guy came up to me and told me, “Hey you should go jump on that trampoline since you’re wearing a skirt.”

Now how in the f*ck can I match that in public? How can I equal that out? I want to leave my house and go up to men and tell them to shake their d*cks for me, ok? I want to eyeball them until they start to feel uncomfortable, then corner them when everyone else at the bus stop has disappeared and ask for their phone number. I want to follow men to their cars and ask if they have a girlfriend, then comment on their physical appearance as I ask them if they like this or that sexual innuendo. I want to watch a guy walk into a bar, sit down next to him, ask him personal questions, buy him a drink, and assume his politeness means that’s a greenlight for me to f*ck him later.

I want to watch a man tell a joke, but I won’t laugh, and then I’ll attribute it to the fact that “men simply aren’t good at telling jokes”. Then later I’ll hear the same joke told by a woman and declare that she’s the funniest motherf*cker around.

I want to open up an auto-repair shop and charge men higher prices for car repairs and oil changes simply because they must not know jacksh*t about auto repair.

I also want to laugh moronically at any man who says the phrase “oil changes” because of the 10th grade sexual innuendo that he so naively didn’t realize he said.
I hope people understood what I did here… (these were all based on my personal experiences, gender roles switched of course…)

So, if I understand correctly, because some people are sexist, it is desireable to match their sexism? If its not that, I'm totally missing whatever point this is supposed to make.

You are not understanding correctly whatsoever. I'm demonstrating that women typically DO NOT match their sexism. And whenever a woman reacts defensively, saying, "Well... you're just a man..." then we're b*tched at for "being sexist" when in all reality it was reactionary, as well as MUCH less severe than the sexism we put up with. 

If I walked around doing everything that I illustrated in my post, then I'd look like a complete a**hole. Obviously I DON'T do those things and would never want to. The post was littered with sarcasm. 

Well when one argues against sexism, is any level of sexism acceptable since it makes one a hypocrite? No two humans share the exact same experiences, and its always necessary to explain one's point of view to one another. To sideline this by saying, "You've got trait X so you can't possibly understand what I'm talking about" is a bit silly, since of course they can't understand if you never try to explain but rather claim in advance that they can't understand.

If I were to take the same line of reasoning here, I could, very ironically, point out that you are unable to comprehend sexism towards males(which was not a position which I took with other posters, instead of preemptively claiming noncomprehension on their part, I simply gave examples of sexism towards males and explained its problems[unsurprisingly, once I explained it, they were able to understand]) by virtue of being female.

[Nevara]

FINE HERE wrote...

Seriously, some of these arguements in here almost make me ashamed to be a woman.

It's a story. You know, like books or movies? It's part of the story-telling experience! If everyone in the story were likeable and good people, it would be boring. There needs to be people who are disgusting and unappealling to make you get into the game more and to make you either dislike them or hate them. They're not there to be role models. They're mostly villians.

If a male quest giver wants you to save his kid brother but he hits on you while asking for your help, does that affect whether or not you save the kid? If a woman calls you a worthless male not worthy of her time but then later on in the game BEGS you for your help, would it make you ignore her? If you see a man verbally assault his wife after she nearly gets their son killed, do you step in and defend the woman or do you agree with the man but try to calm him down?

Sure, it seems like women are victims more often than the men, but there are way more powerful women in there too. Andraste is the easiest to name, since, you know, a lot of people say her name. The Divine, Grand Clerics, etc... Their religion is led by women. If your PC is a female in DA:O, she becomes the HERO OF FERELDON, and in DA2, you even become the CHAMPION. You make the strong female role model for Thedas, and prove all those jerks that belittled you that you're better than them.

These things are put into stories to stir up some emotion in the reader/viewer. And seeing how most of you are offended, I assume they worked.

+1 indeed.

[Xilizhra]

FINE HERE wrote...

Seriously, some of these arguements in here almost make me ashamed to be a woman.

It's a story. You know, like books or movies? It's part of the story-telling experience! If everyone in the story were likeable and good people, it would be boring. There needs to be people who are disgusting and unappealling to make you get into the game more and to make you either dislike them or hate them. They're not there to be role models. They're mostly villians.

If a male quest giver wants you to save his kid brother but he hits on you while asking for your help, does that affect whether or not you save the kid? If a woman calls you a worthless male not worthy of her time but then later on in the game BEGS you for your help, would it make you ignore her? If you see a man verbally assault his wife after she nearly gets their son killed, do you step in and defend the woman or do you agree with the man but try to calm him down?

Sure, it seems like women are victims more often than the men, but there are way more powerful women in there too. Andraste is the easiest to name, since, you know, a lot of people say her name. The Divine, Grand Clerics, etc... Their religion is led by women. If your PC is a female in DA:O, she becomes the HERO OF FERELDON, and in DA2, you even become the CHAMPION. You make the strong female role model for Thedas, and prove all those jerks that belittled you that you're better than them.

These things are put into stories to stir up some emotion in the reader/viewer. And seeing how most of you are offended, I assume they worked.

Maybe it's me, but I don't see Andraste or the priests as being wonderful examples of women... certainly not the priests we see, who tend to be unimpressive or outright malevolent. Andraste may have had things going for her, but remember that the Hero of Ferelden can be an elf, too, without helping the general status of elves at all. What the universe's attitudes are matters even if the PC can defy them.

[FINE HERE]

Xilizhra wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

Seriously, some of these arguements in here almost make me ashamed to be a woman.

It's a story. You know, like books or movies? It's part of the story-telling experience! If everyone in the story were likeable and good people, it would be boring. There needs to be people who are disgusting and unappealling to make you get into the game more and to make you either dislike them or hate them. They're not there to be role models. They're mostly villians.

If a male quest giver wants you to save his kid brother but he hits on you while asking for your help, does that affect whether or not you save the kid? If a woman calls you a worthless male not worthy of her time but then later on in the game BEGS you for your help, would it make you ignore her? If you see a man verbally assault his wife after she nearly gets their son killed, do you step in and defend the woman or do you agree with the man but try to calm him down?

Sure, it seems like women are victims more often than the men, but there are way more powerful women in there too. Andraste is the easiest to name, since, you know, a lot of people say her name. The Divine, Grand Clerics, etc... Their religion is led by women. If your PC is a female in DA:O, she becomes the HERO OF FERELDON, and in DA2, you even become the CHAMPION. You make the strong female role model for Thedas, and prove all those jerks that belittled you that you're better than them.

These things are put into stories to stir up some emotion in the reader/viewer. And seeing how most of you are offended, I assume they worked.

Maybe it's me, but I don't see Andraste or the priests as being wonderful examples of women... certainly not the priests we see, who tend to be unimpressive or outright malevolent. Andraste may have had things going for her, but remember that the Hero of Ferelden can be an elf, too, without helping the general status of elves at all. What the universe's attitudes are matters even if the PC can defy them.

My point was more 'they have a huge and important role in part of Thedas' society' and not 'they are good people and role models.' But I can see your point.

[syllogi]

FINE HERE wrote...

Seriously, some of these arguements in here almost make me ashamed to be a woman.

It's a story. You know, like books or movies? It's part of the story-telling experience! If everyone in the story were likeable and good people, it would be boring. There needs to be people who are disgusting and unappealling to make you get into the game more and to make you either dislike them or hate them. They're not there to be role models. They're mostly villians.

If a male quest giver wants you to save his kid brother but he hits on you while asking for your help, does that affect whether or not you save the kid? If a woman calls you a worthless male not worthy of her time but then later on in the game BEGS you for your help, would it make you ignore her? If you see a man verbally assault his wife after she nearly gets their son killed, do you step in and defend the woman or do you agree with the man but try to calm him down?

Sure, it seems like women are victims more often than the men, but there are way more powerful women in there too. Andraste is the easiest to name, since, you know, a lot of people say her name. The Divine, Grand Clerics, etc... Their religion is led by women. If your PC is a female in DA:O, she becomes the HERO OF FERELDON, and in DA2, you even become the CHAMPION. You make the strong female role model for Thedas, and prove all those jerks that belittled you that you're better than them.

These things are put into stories to stir up some emotion in the reader/viewer. And seeing how most of you are offended, I assume they worked.

If the "best" way a writer knows how to make a villain seem bad is having females raped or threatened with rape, no, the writer did not succeed.  Why?  Because it has become so common, and pretty gross, that it seems like female characters *must* be victims of that particular type of violence to somehow justify their presence in the story.  Like the author I linked earlier in the thread, no, I don't think that rape should be treated as a normalized type of violence, especially if it's reserved for, and expected to happen to, female characters.

My personal point is that, if sexual violence happens at all in fiction, I'd really prefer to see it acknowledged, and dealt with, in a mature way, whether it is happening to a male or female character.  The idea that it's *expected* to happen to female characters, however, as if it's part of a laundry list, isn't mature or edgy.  It's just kind of sad and gross.

Modifié par syllogi, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:15 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I said this directly to one poster last page, but I'll pose it instead to the entire group:

What do you want? I agree that there is a strong, valid concern that many females have. It seems some here stating that the sexism they are dealing with on a daily basis is something they obviously don't enjoy. So, what does Bioware need to do to make this sexist, debasing writing to stop?

Please, be specific and give examples. Otherwise, this becomes a 'sexism is sti rampant in the world today' thread (which is fine) rather than a 'here is what I want from a Bioware game' thread, which this seems to have deviated from.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

That's because the general response to women is perpetuated by ignorance. Ignorance is almost like a sin of omission. A person hasn't "done" something to a woman, but they also haven't "done" anything to counter the b.s. we put up with. And this lack of enlightenment is highlighted in almost every casual situation.

And believe me, it's not anyone's personal fault, it's socially conditioned. But for the woman - it's frustrating. Also, no one is pissed at Steve - they're pissed at a variety of "Steves" throughout their ongoing life experience. And when faced by someone who perpetuates the ignorance of these "Steves" it's difficult not to react, generalize, and dejectedly throw one's hands up into the air. 

No one likes being generalized, and no one likes being told they're ignorant. So anyone that does that is going to get flak - and if they're supposedly ignorant, just calling them ignorant isn't going to make them not ignorant. It's going to make them like you /less/. A pretty reasonable way to react I'd think, justified or not.

Modifié par DaringMoosejaw, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:21 .