342 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Gender difference I want to see.

You're not going to die, you know. People react different to different genders. Whats so wrong about that?

[TuringPoint]

(just for the sake of argument)

It may be worth noting that the characters are perpetrating most of the OP-mentioned sexist actions; and the tone of the narrative is decidedly negative towards these sexist actions.  That the men mentioned who hit on female PC's are so pathetic could, in fact, be evidence of this narrative tone.  

It does enhance the cultural pressure that men don't need to be attractive and women must always be attractive.  But I feel this may oversimplify the examples being used. We aren't talking about sexual relationships that become serious; these are casual abuses of sexuality.  There is a sort of license that goes with that.

It is also worth noting that the worst womanizers and rapists are frequently if not mostly good-looking, irl.  If there were a super good-looking man npc who hit on a female PC, just to use her, would that really be better than a pathetic male npc doing the same?  The latter puts the woman in a position of power, after all.  I don't think women being in power necessarily means women are being portrayed fairly, much less positively.  I don't think the writers at bioware are clearly sexist anyway, in spite of patterns in subplots.

Modifié par Alocormin, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:28 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm strongly considering stating that the original idea of diversifying and even pushing some types of gender stereotypes and closing this thread, because it's pretty volatile....

[Fishy]

This thread is full of double-standard  and no one notice it. The only thing I want to say .. is that Cammen is a character. . not put there to make you undesirable.. Which I consider a strong and funny double standard on your part.. and which I won't explain.

Modifié par Suprez30, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:26 .

[FINE HERE]

syllogi wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

Seriously, some of these arguements in here almost make me ashamed to be a woman.

It's a story. You know, like books or movies? It's part of the story-telling experience! If everyone in the story were likeable and good people, it would be boring. There needs to be people who are disgusting and unappealling to make you get into the game more and to make you either dislike them or hate them. They're not there to be role models. They're mostly villians.

If a male quest giver wants you to save his kid brother but he hits on you while asking for your help, does that affect whether or not you save the kid? If a woman calls you a worthless male not worthy of her time but then later on in the game BEGS you for your help, would it make you ignore her? If you see a man verbally assault his wife after she nearly gets their son killed, do you step in and defend the woman or do you agree with the man but try to calm him down?

Sure, it seems like women are victims more often than the men, but there are way more powerful women in there too. Andraste is the easiest to name, since, you know, a lot of people say her name. The Divine, Grand Clerics, etc... Their religion is led by women. If your PC is a female in DA:O, she becomes the HERO OF FERELDON, and in DA2, you even become the CHAMPION. You make the strong female role model for Thedas, and prove all those jerks that belittled you that you're better than them.

These things are put into stories to stir up some emotion in the reader/viewer. And seeing how most of you are offended, I assume they worked.

If the "best" way a writer knows how to make a villain seem bad is having females raped or threatened with rape, no, the writer did not succeed.  Why?  Because it has become so common, and pretty gross, that it seems like female characters *must* be victims of that particular type of violence to somehow justify their presence in the story.  Like the author I linked earlier in the thread, no, I don't think that rape should be treated as a normalized type of violence, especially if it's reserved for, and expected to happen to, female characters.

My personal point is that, if sexual violence happens at all in fiction, I'd really prefer to see it acknowledged, and dealt with, in a mature way, whether it is happening to a male or female character.  The idea that it's *expected* to happen to female characters, however, as if it's part of a laundry list, isn't mature or edgy.  It's just kind of sad and gross.

Okay, I didn't mention rape anywhere in my post, so I have no idea why you assumed I solely mean the 'rape or threatened with rape' argument, especially when I show three situations that don't have it.

I get how that's a delicate(I'm not sure what word to use, this was the only one that came to mind) subject, and I thought the city elf origin was handled pretty well. But again, I was talking more about men belittling women and vice versea. I wasn't gonna approach the 'rape' subject at all, because I didn't want to upset anyone. I can see the justification of using it in an artist sense, but I also understand it is an unpleasant thought to many, women AND men. But again, these aren't people you're suppose to like if they threatened to rape your character. You're supposed to hate them, to death even.

[brushyourteeth]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm strongly considering stating that the original idea of diversifying and even pushing some types of gender stereotypes and closing this thread, because it's pretty volatile....

Please give it a chance, Allan. There's heated discussion happening, true - but I don't see anyone name calling or getting unreasonable. There's some seriously valuable discussion happening here. 

[Vandicus]

I'm afraid I don't understand the first part of your statement Allan. Everything before "and closing this thread, because it's pretty volatile" is a bit difficult to parse.

[Joy Divison]

Suprez30 wrote...

This thread is full of double-standard  and no one notice it.

Oh, it's rather obvious.

[Terrorize69]

Suprez30 wrote...

This thread is full of double-standard  and no one notice it.

Some have, but those that have notiched have been dismissed as either "Men should take the sexism women dish out cause women get it "worse"" or "Men should be expected to take it lightly and in humor."

Modifié par Terrorize69, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:29 .

[TuringPoint]

The issue of sexism is clearly being belabored more than it needs to be >.>

When you start seeing double standards and such, that is.

Modifié par Alocormin, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:31 .

[Leoroc]

OP is very insightful, I would rather see it balanced out with giving some more negative male stuff and positive female stuff though than trying to eliminate all violence against women from the game.

Modifié par Leoroc, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:34 .

[Sylvianus]

FINE HERE wrote...

Seriously, some of these arguements in here almost make me ashamed to be a woman.

It's a story. You know, like books or movies? It's part of the story-telling experience! If everyone in the story were likeable and good people, it would be boring. There needs to be people who are disgusting and unappealling to make you get into the game more and to make you either dislike them or hate them. They're not there to be role models. They're mostly villians.

If a male quest giver wants you to save his kid brother but he hits on you while asking for your help, does that affect whether or not you save the kid? If a woman calls you a worthless male not worthy of her time but then later on in the game BEGS you for your help, would it make you ignore her? If you see a man verbally assault his wife after she nearly gets their son killed, do you step in and defend the woman or do you agree with the man but try to calm him down?

Sure, it seems like women are victims more often than the men, but there are way more powerful women in there too. Andraste is the easiest to name, since, you know, a lot of people say her name. The Divine, Grand Clerics, etc... Their religion is led by women. If your PC is a female in DA:O, she becomes the HERO OF FERELDON, and in DA2, you even become the CHAMPION. You make the strong female role model for Thedas, and prove all those jerks that belittled you that you're better than them.

These things are put into stories to stir up some emotion in the reader/viewer. And seeing how most of you are offended, I assume they worked.

Again. Thank you. If some people in this thread were lead writer, their story would really suck. I wouldn't give a crap.

[DreamwareStudio]

Abuse, rape, racism, violence, etc. should never be used simply as a way to stir up emotion or increase tension. If they exist, they must play a part of the actual story rather than be used as a cheap trick. If a writer uses dark subject matter in such a way, it just shows the writer does not understand the intricacies that goes into a fully developed story with fully developed characters.

Modifié par google_calasade, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:36 .

[Sylvianus]

That was well done in DAO with the city elf origin.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:37 .

[Rune-Chan]

Leoroc wrote...

OP is very insightful, I would rather see it balanced out with giving some more negative male stuff and positive female stuff though than trying to eliminate all violence against women from the game.

More men than women die.
More men than women are bad guys.

I am not trying to start an argument, but the idea that "women have it worse" or "women are seen as worse" is not accurate.

All genders, races and sides have their own fair share of good characters, bad characters, victims and heroes. None of them are singled out to be seen as worse than the other, and none of them are shown to be superior either.

There are plenty of strong female characters, plenty of decent female characters, and plenty of diverse female characters.

Bioware is actually one of the few companies that does this in their games.

[Vandicus]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

That's because the general response to women is perpetuated by ignorance. Ignorance is almost like a sin of omission. A person hasn't "done" something to a woman, but they also haven't "done" anything to counter the b.s. we put up with. And this lack of enlightenment is highlighted in almost every casual situation.

And believe me, it's not anyone's personal fault, it's socially conditioned. But for the woman - it's frustrating. Also, no one is pissed at Steve - they're pissed at a variety of "Steves" throughout their ongoing life experience. And when faced by someone who perpetuates the ignorance of these "Steves" it's difficult not to react, generalize, and dejectedly throw one's hands up into the air. 

No one likes being generalized, and no one likes being told they're ignorant. So anyone that does that is going to get flak - and if they're supposedly ignorant, just calling them ignorant isn't going to make them not ignorant. It's going to make them like you /less/. A pretty reasonable way to react I'd think, justified or not.

But my point isn't to gain popularity.

The point I was originally making was: Wow it sure is amusing how vehemently everyone jumps down the throat of a girl who said, "you wouldn't understand because you're a man".

If more people jumped down the throats of half the men who have said absolutely HORRIBLE things to me in broad daylight, then maybe maybe this topic wouldn't appear so incredibly lopsided. A guy comments on my ass and people look the other way. A girl says "you're a guy and you don't understand" and suddenly everyone's throwing stones in her face. 

It's just an amusing (and depressing) observation.

You're generalizing again. Did it ever occur to you that, the lack of comprehension is not "because they're a man" but, because you haven't actually tried talking with them and simply brush aside their attempts at understanding your POV?

The bystander effect is not limited to sexism. Stop pretending that its inherently sexist.

Hypocrisy is also viewed by many as worse than being openly racist or sexist.

[Scarlet Rabbi]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

That's because the general response to women is perpetuated by ignorance. Ignorance is almost like a sin of omission. A person hasn't "done" something to a woman, but they also haven't "done" anything to counter the b.s. we put up with. And this lack of enlightenment is highlighted in almost every casual situation.

Well, you haven't done anything to counter the B.S. we put up with as males, or you haven't helped gophers with their share of B.S., not to mention jaguars and their struggles.

You see, anyone can play this stupid, vague word game, and type of a whole bunch of words without saying one thing. What are you saying? You list a so called 'problem' but lend no solution. Ohhh, women have it sooo bad, and people who just try to live their lives and treat everyone equally, regardless of sex, are actually part of the problem(gasp)because they do nothing to 'counter' all the BS women put up with. Smh, I suggest getting off your high horse before reality breaks all four of its legs.

On topic though, Bioware, DA in particular, does an excellent job at potraying the sexes equally, as PC's or NPC's. But what they don't do is sugarcoat the world around those said PC's/NPC's, they present a disturbing reality. Some people (men AND women) treat women as if they are inferior to men. But you know who else they do that to? Elves, dwarfs, mages, people of different nationalities etc. It's all territory. If you want to make a fictional world come to life there has to be realism in it, sexism is just one of those realities. I'd argue that by incorporating topics such as sexism, racism and xenophobia into their games, Bioware has truly established an accurate, adult and mature world for the setting of their games. And saying, "I don't want a slaver to call my character a '****' just because she's female", shows, to me, that you can't handle mature, adult themes(aka reality) in games, and should maybe try a JRPG.

Modifié par Scarlet Rabbi, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:45 .

[brushyourteeth]

Alocormin wrote...

(just for the sake of argument)

It may be worth noting that the characters are perpetrating most of the OP-mentioned sexist actions; and the tone of the narrative is decidedly negative towards these sexist actions.  That the men mentioned who hit on female PC's are so pathetic could, in fact, be evidence of this narrative tone.  

It does enhance the cultural pressure that men don't need to be attractive and women must always be attractive.  But I feel this may oversimplify the examples being used. We aren't talking about sexual relationships that become serious; these are casual abuses of sexuality.  There is a sort of license that goes with that.

It is also worth noting that the worst womanizers and rapists are frequently if not mostly good-looking, irl.  If there were a super good-looking man npc who hit on a female PC, just to use her, would that really be better than a pathetic male npc doing the same?  The latter puts the woman in a position of power, after all.  I don't think women being in power necessarily means women are being portrayed fairly, much less positively.  I don't think the writers at bioware are clearly sexist anyway, in spite of patterns in subplots.

I agree with just about everything in your post (well done) - but I'd like to address the underlined and explain why a woman that is being hit on is not in a position of power - the man is.
You would think that her being desirable enough to have a man approach her would maker her the power-holder in that situation, or that her being able to say "yes" or "no" would maker her the person in control. But it does not.

More often than not, being hit on by a horny stranger makes a woman feel powerless, because her hopes for how the situation plays out are relatively unimportant. She didn't ask him to ogle her from across the room, and she didn't invite him to make any inappropriate advances. Furthermore, telling the guy to eff off only makes her a b****, and what the h*** is the matter with her anyway? The guy was just trying to be nice. Only he wasn't -- he was trying to get himself laid. He most likely didn't stop to think about how she'd appreciate being treated by a man. A prime (although comical) example of this is Emile DeLauncet. Hawke wasn't a person to him. Neither was the girl working at the bar. They were objects with breasts and vaginas (hooray!).

Now, let me be fair and say that most men aren't like that. They're honestly not.

But when I tell the story of how I was leaving GameStop a few weeks ago and the guy at the counter made a comment involving me looking like I knew what to do with a joystick (*ahem*) as I walked away, and my male friends tell me I should be flattered, I'll eventually have to answer them with "You don't understand because you're a guy." And you know what? I wish they'd just answer back "then explain it to me." Because being a woman is hard in ways that guys don't get. It doesn't mean that we hate them, or blame them. But a little understanding is soo much more valuable than blame.

[Xilizhra]

Bioware is actually one of the few companies that does this in their games.

It helps, but is not quite sufficient. And the largest problem, all in all, is the way in which female victimization is frequently handled, as well as the physical violation issues.

[Travie]

Men should be able to wear as many silly hats as women.

This is my only opinion on this issue.

[mousestalker]

Manners are attractive in both men and women. When you couple logic with respect for your interlocutor you have a winning combination.

Just FYI.

[Rune-Chan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bioware is actually one of the few companies that does this in their games.

It helps, but is not quite sufficient. And the largest problem, all in all, is the way in which female victimization is frequently handled, as well as the physical violation issues.

Care to elaborate? You are basically saying "This is wrong" without actually saying why or how.

[Aolbain]

[quote]

Of course it's sexist and If the Nameless one could of been female I'd still argue the same point.The difference however is that there is a world history of men manipulating and shaming women to get what they want which makes it particularly sensitive.

[/quote]

I have not played PS:T so I cant argue that specific point but if a get your message correctly no fiction can ever portray a man do anything bad to a woman, becaus that woud be sexist. Could the same be said about a white PC abuse a black NPC. Or a rich PC (as they have a tendency to become) trying to mainpulate a poor NPC.
Wouldnt that be racism and classicism?

[/quote]

No, of course not.I'm sorry, I figured you were familiar with the game.The example I used was of two people in a relationship with the TnO having the possibility of manipulating and degrading the female via the relationship  effectively making her subserviant to her lover and putting her in her place.It's difficult to explain without access to the immediate dialogue.

As per your other examples, it all really depends on the motive and circumstances of the abuse between the white & black npc.As with the rich and poor npc, again circumstance and motive.

[/quote]

Oh, OK then. hanks for making that clear! :happy:

[Allan Schumacher]

You see, anyone can play this stupid, vague word game, and type of a whole bunch of words without saying one thing. What are you saying? You list a so called 'problem' but lend no solution. Ohhh, women have it sooo bad, and people who just try to live their lives and treat everyone equally, regardless of sex, are actually part of the problem(gasp)because they do nothing to 'counter' all the BS women put up with. Smh, I suggest getting off your high horse before reality breaks all four of its legs

Describing that someone feels something is a problem does not require a solution to be put forth. Especially if someone may not even know of a particular solution.

As for getting off high horses....