342 réponses à ce sujet

[Terrorize69]

Leoroc wrote...

OP is very insightful, I would rather see it balanced out with giving some more negative male stuff and positive female stuff though than trying to eliminate all violence against women from the game.

Negative male stuff of the top of my head..

- Cullen as a victim
- Carver as a victim
- Emeric as a victim
- Orsino as a victim
- Anders as a terrorist
- Fenris as a murderer
- Varrics brother as a disloyal traitor
- Male Templars mentally and sexually assaulted, having their will removed and a host to demons (at the hands of female mages)
- Karl made tranquil
- Carver betraying his family (another instance of "men being disloyal")
- Vincento as a flighty bad father (another instance of males being portrayed as disloyal)

The list goes on, there is plenty of negative male stuff in just DA2 alone, I always thought the females in DA were held in a higher regard and hold positions of strong influence aswell as strong willed.

But yeah, double standards. Its easy to pick just one side of an arguement and blot out the other details.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:53 .

[Joy Divison]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

That's because the general response to women is perpetuated by ignorance. Ignorance is almost like a sin of omission. A person hasn't "done" something to a woman, but they also haven't "done" anything to counter the b.s. we put up with. And this lack of enlightenment is highlighted in almost every casual situation.

And believe me, it's not anyone's personal fault, it's socially conditioned. But for the woman - it's frustrating. Also, no one is pissed at Steve - they're pissed at a variety of "Steves" throughout their ongoing life experience. And when faced by someone who perpetuates the ignorance of these "Steves" it's difficult not to react, generalize, and dejectedly throw one's hands up into the air. 

No, it's Steve's fault.  If Steve says its "socially conditioned" to act like an ass to women, that's Steve's inability to accept responsibility for his actions.  Steve might think his actions are harmless, playful, or fulfilling his idea of what masculinity ought to be, but that's his own willful deception; he has been told numerous times through various institutions, relatives, friends, and perhaps in his own everyday life experiences how and why one ought not to act like an ass to women.

No one likes being called ignorant or blamed for things they did not do, especially when they actively "do" things to counter the Steves of the world.

It's one thing to poke fun at male stereotypes.  Quite another to be serious and generalize them as ignorant and misogynistic.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:50 .

[Aolbain]

[quote]Aolbain wrote...


[quote]

Of course it's sexist and If the Nameless one could of been female I'd still argue the same point.The difference however is that there is a world history of men manipulating and shaming women to get what they want which makes it particularly sensitive.

[/quote]

[quote]
I have not played PS:T so I cant argue that specific point but if a get your message correctly no fiction can ever portray a man do anything bad to a woman, becaus that woud be sexist. Could the same be said about a white PC abuse a black NPC. Or a rich PC (as they have a tendency to become) trying to mainpulate a poor NPC.
Wouldnt that be racism and classicism?

[/quote]
[quote]
No, of course not.I'm sorry, I figured you were familiar with the game.The example I used was of two people in a relationship with the TnO having the possibility of manipulating and degrading the female via the relationship  effectively making her subserviant to her lover and putting her in her place.It's difficult to explain without access to the immediate dialogue.

As per your other examples, it all really depends on the motive and circumstances of the abuse between the white & black npc.As with the rich and poor npc, again circumstance and motive.

[/quote]

Oh, OK then. hanks for making that clear! :happy:

[Aolbain]

dubble post

Modifié par Aolbain, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:50 .

[Giltspur]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I said this directly to one poster last page, but I'll pose it instead to the entire group:

What do you want? I agree that there is a strong, valid concern that many females have. It seems some here stating that the sexism they are dealing with on a daily basis is something they obviously don't enjoy. So, what does Bioware need to do to make this sexist, debasing writing to stop?

Please, be specific and give examples. Otherwise, this becomes a 'sexism is sti rampant in the world today' thread (which is fine) rather than a 'here is what I want from a Bioware game' thread, which this seems to have deviated from.

I think the interesting issue comes from contrasting unique content for female PC's and unique content for male PC's and coming up with new ideas.  What isn't interesting to me is a discussion on the portrayal of men and women in video games in general.  Obviously there are good and bad women and men, strong and weak women and men.  You see that in the world.  You see that in Dragon Age.  That's not interesting because I just take it for granted that writers should aspire to that and, hey, Bioware does.  So what sort of unique content for PC based on the PC's gender should there be?  A lot of time the unique content for a female PC is getting called some female-specific negative term or encountering lame pickup lines by unappealing men.  And the unique content for male PC's is the praise of adulation of female NPC's you've helped and feeling the burning envy of all the male NPC's that are lesser men than you the male PC are.  

But there are other situations to put female and male PC's in.  What if a male PC has to work with a woman of power that is a sexist?  Are you going to conflict with her openly?  Are you going to grit your teeth and to try to serve as a counterexample?  How does it go?  

What if, as a female PC, you encounter is a child or a woman that's been victimized by a man and that is more comfortable around a female PC due to feeling  less threatened by the PC?  And if you're a male PC, this same scenario is more challenging to you because your gender is an obstacle to that NPC feeling comfortable around you.

What if you encounter a child that assumes a female PC is a mother figure and gets clingy and needy and hopeful.  Some female PC's might be okay with that, feel rewarded by it.  Others might be like "Uh, you got the wrong woman.  Uh, I'm not like..." and then you know, now what?  Different ways for the female PC to handle the situation.

What if the game has a bisexual NPC that you can have a one-night stand with?  Wiht the female PC, it's just a fling and perhaps a conversation.  But with the male PC, she coaxes him into sex that is seemingly both consentual and violent.  She then accuses him of raping her.  The latter example is probably something people don't want to see in a game.  I bring it up as something that men are more likely to fear than women are.  Another male-specific fear involves people being more suspicious of you around children than they would be of women around children--so you could put that in game.  Again, perhaps that's scary subject matter that people don't want to see.  But it's an example of something male-oriented that isn't a case of everything always being better for men.

So one approach is to make the game ignore gender completely.  I think some things should be like that.  Like being the Hero of Ferelden.  It's much the same for a woman as it is for a man.  But I think it's cool to have gender-specific content here and there.  But it should be a constantly evolving thing from game to game--something that explores interesting situations as opposed to going back to the familiar (man bests his rivals, woman get hits on by creepy dude) for the most part.  And I don't see a problem with going back to the familiar.  That's fine.  But adding in new twists to gender-specific content seems like a good thing.

Modifié par Giltspur, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:02 .

[Dave of Canada]

Screw it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:58 .

[syllogi]

FINE HERE wrote...

syllogi wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

Seriously, some of these arguements in here almost make me ashamed to be a woman.

It's a story. You know, like books or movies? It's part of the story-telling experience! If everyone in the story were likeable and good people, it would be boring. There needs to be people who are disgusting and unappealling to make you get into the game more and to make you either dislike them or hate them. They're not there to be role models. They're mostly villians.

If a male quest giver wants you to save his kid brother but he hits on you while asking for your help, does that affect whether or not you save the kid? If a woman calls you a worthless male not worthy of her time but then later on in the game BEGS you for your help, would it make you ignore her? If you see a man verbally assault his wife after she nearly gets their son killed, do you step in and defend the woman or do you agree with the man but try to calm him down?

Sure, it seems like women are victims more often than the men, but there are way more powerful women in there too. Andraste is the easiest to name, since, you know, a lot of people say her name. The Divine, Grand Clerics, etc... Their religion is led by women. If your PC is a female in DA:O, she becomes the HERO OF FERELDON, and in DA2, you even become the CHAMPION. You make the strong female role model for Thedas, and prove all those jerks that belittled you that you're better than them.

These things are put into stories to stir up some emotion in the reader/viewer. And seeing how most of you are offended, I assume they worked.

If the "best" way a writer knows how to make a villain seem bad is having females raped or threatened with rape, no, the writer did not succeed.  Why?  Because it has become so common, and pretty gross, that it seems like female characters *must* be victims of that particular type of violence to somehow justify their presence in the story.  Like the author I linked earlier in the thread, no, I don't think that rape should be treated as a normalized type of violence, especially if it's reserved for, and expected to happen to, female characters.

My personal point is that, if sexual violence happens at all in fiction, I'd really prefer to see it acknowledged, and dealt with, in a mature way, whether it is happening to a male or female character.  The idea that it's *expected* to happen to female characters, however, as if it's part of a laundry list, isn't mature or edgy.  It's just kind of sad and gross.

Okay, I didn't mention rape anywhere in my post, so I have no idea why you assumed I solely mean the 'rape or threatened with rape' argument, especially when I show three situations that don't have it.

I get how that's a delicate(I'm not sure what word to use, this was the only one that came to mind) subject, and I thought the city elf origin was handled pretty well. But again, I was talking more about men belittling women and vice versea. I wasn't gonna approach the 'rape' subject at all, because I didn't want to upset anyone. I can see the justification of using it in an artist sense, but I also understand it is an unpleasant thought to many, women AND men. But again, these aren't people you're suppose to like if they threatened to rape your character. You're supposed to hate them, to death even.

You apparently are attacking the OP and other women's arguments when you claim to be ashamed to be a woman after reading them, so I would assume that when you say "it's just a story, deal with it" "it" is referring to what Maria and the other women in this thread are talking about, which is not simply flirting and or being treated differently when playing a female character.

If you do have some points related to the OP, as opposed to just telling us we're all wrong and badly representing your gender, I'd be interested to hear about it.

[robertthebard]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

That's because the general response to women is perpetuated by ignorance. Ignorance is almost like a sin of omission. A person hasn't "done" something to a woman, but they also haven't "done" anything to counter the b.s. we put up with. And this lack of enlightenment is highlighted in almost every casual situation.

And believe me, it's not anyone's personal fault, it's socially conditioned. But for the woman - it's frustrating. Also, no one is pissed at Steve - they're pissed at a variety of "Steves" throughout their ongoing life experience. And when faced by someone who perpetuates the ignorance of these "Steves" it's difficult not to react, generalize, and dejectedly throw one's hands up into the air. 

No one likes being generalized, and no one likes being told they're ignorant. So anyone that does that is going to get flak - and if they're supposedly ignorant, just calling them ignorant isn't going to make them not ignorant. It's going to make them like you /less/. A pretty reasonable way to react I'd think, justified or not.

But my point isn't to gain popularity.

The point I was originally making was: Wow it sure is amusing how vehemently everyone jumps down the throat of a girl who said, "you wouldn't understand because you're a man".

If more people jumped down the throats of half the men who have said absolutely HORRIBLE things to me in broad daylight, then maybe maybe this topic wouldn't appear so incredibly lopsided. A guy comments on my ass and people look the other way. A girl says "you're a guy and you don't understand" and suddenly everyone's throwing stones in her face. ("HOW DARE SHE BE SO SEXIST WHEN SHE DOES NOT WANT SEXISM.")

It's just an amusing (and depressing) observation.

It's kinda funny, in an ironic kind of way, but I was going to say something to a guy that commented on my GF's ass at Riverfest a few years back, and she stopped me.  She then turned to him and told him that it was too bad he'd never see any more of it.  She had a number just for guys that harrassed her for it too:  1-800-eat-sh*t.  She refused to be a "victim" of this kind of thing.  Of course, she was a professional stripper, and I was a professional bouncer.  It was my job to defend the ladies, even when they were wrong.  They didn't much care for the way I handled them after the threat was dealt with if I felt they were wrong though, since I would point it out.  I carry a 3 inch long scar in my head from a broken poolcue for defending my bro's wife at a strip club one night, and I didn't even work there.  I did escort the 5 guys involved out after the smoke cleared though.

Here's the funny:  I do stand up for women when something like the things you describe happen close to me.  I will, however, call them on their BS if the situation was caused by them.  If I'd been at your bus stop, I'd have stepped up on your behalf, but frankly, after taking a look at me, you would have probably acted the same way towards me as you did towards the guy that asked you for your number, you know, like I was just trying to get in your pants.  I've seen that happen before.  Chivalry isn't dead, but sometimes, it can shoot you in the foot, when you innocently step in to protect someone's honor.  Especially when the someone in question acts like you're no different than the initial problem.  My friend's wife, mentioned above, didn't hold that view, but we'd known eachother for years.  She was mad, at first, that I had gotten involved, especially since my head was bleeding rather profusely, but after she found out I was fine, she was glad I'd helped her.

That's the dilemma most men like me find themselves in, and some, quite frankly, prefer to do nothing than to be accused of assuming that "I couldn't handle it on my own".  You know, for casting a woman into a stereotypical helpless female role?

[Sejborg]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I said this directly to one poster last page, but I'll pose it instead to the entire group:

What do you want? I agree that there is a strong, valid concern that many females have. It seems some here stating that the sexism they are dealing with on a daily basis is something they obviously don't enjoy. So, what does Bioware need to do to make this sexist, debasing writing to stop?

Please, be specific and give examples. Otherwise, this becomes a 'sexism is sti rampant in the world today' thread (which is fine) rather than a 'here is what I want from a Bioware game' thread, which this seems to have deviated from.

Well. I am not seeing Dragon Age as being a sexist game at all. But I would like Bioware to do this:

- Keep going to dark places.
 
- But I would like Bioware to handle these dark instances with more impact on the story. 

- Hawkes sibling and mom died. But it was quickly onward and having silly banter with Varric, Isabella and all the other companions. I would like for Bioware to delve more into these dark themes, and not move on so quickly, without really leaving an inprint on the story.

- Don't make the one gender better than the other. Don't make all the strong characters x gender, and don't make all the weak characters y gender. I don't think Bioware are guilty of doing this but I am pointing it out anyway. If anything I would believe that there is an overweigth of strong female characters compared to male characters. But I mostly role female characters, so I could probably balance this out myself.  

- Also the other way around. Don't make one gender the primarily victimised one. I don't think Bioware are guilty of doing this either but whatever. 

- I suggested earlier that Alistair could have been raped by the guards when taken prisoner in Origins. In a world like Thedas, where "everyone is bi" (or at least sexuallity is none issue) having the female gender being the only one getting raped seems kinda weird.

[Droma]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Leoroc wrote...

OP is very insightful, I would rather see it balanced out with giving some more negative male stuff and positive female stuff though than trying to eliminate all violence against women from the game.

Negative male stuff of the top of my head..

- Cullen as a victim
- Carver as a victim
- Emeric as a victim
- Orsino as a victim
- Anders as a terrorist
- Fenris as a murderer
- Varrics brother as a disloyal traitor
- Male Templars mentally and sexually assaulted, having their will removed and a host to demons (at the hands of female mages)
- Karl made tranquil
- Carver betraying his family (another instance of "men being disloyal")
- Vincento as a flighty bad father (another instance of males being portrayed as disloyal)

The list goes on, there is plenty of negative male stuff in just DA2 alone, I always thought the females in DA were held in a higher regard and hold positions of strong influence aswell as strong willed.

But yeah, double standards. Its easy to pick just one side of an arguement and blot out the other details.

should be bumped =D

also trista faux hawke, you realize that you often compare two completly different people here? the sexist guy who is making comments about your ass and the other guy here saying that woman are sexist too if they basically say men are not capable of understanding women's feelings. these are two different persons you know? just because some random douches on the street treat you bad doesn't allows you to treat people here badly. that is not defending. if a guy punches me and I punch another random guy for that, that isn't defending either. I get your point and i kind of understand that it must be annoying, but again flame those douchebags for that, not the people here.

Modifié par Droma, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:07 .

[Zkyire]

This thread makes me appreciate the Mass Effect community more than this one.

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I know topics like this tend to prompt a defensive reaction, so I'm doing to start by saying that I don't think BioWare's writers are sexist, evil woman haters who hate women and want female specific content to suck. Moreover, while this thread is to discourage what I dislike, that’s not the same as saying it should never happen.

*Headscratch* not all the stuff you mentioned is exclusive--you can have a threesome on a female PC, for instance.

That, and when you pick the examples, you're going to miss out on other examples that contradict this "trend".  What about Caradin and Branka?  You can't say that Branka was the one being violated there--in fact, she was the one responsible for the rape and destruction of her own house.  Caradin was horribly violated and needed your help to set things right--and if you had Shale along, he even talks about HER being the strong one.

What about Zathrian and the Lady of the Forest?  She was rational and wanted the curse to end even if it meant dying.  He was emotionally distraught and hysterical.

What about Wynne and Irving?  Uldred was about to horribly violate Irving when you show up, possibly with Wynne, to save his butt.  What about the templar in the Circle tower being mind-controlled by the Desire Demon?  What about Niall's helpless confusion in the Fade?  What about Connor getting taken over and mind-controlling Teagan while Isolde remained free of direct control?

When you're primed to see certain types of situations as members of a class and all others as random outliers, yeah, there's going to seem to be a trend no matter how many exceptions there are, so the only solution becomes to NEVER have men make sexist comments or have ugly male virgins or have ANY kind of violence against women whatsoever.  But then what you have is women being put up on an untouchable pedestal while men do all the fighting and dying around them.  Which was a common trope not too many years ago, if you recall.  Which is also sexist and demeaning to women.

Yeah, some tropes are going to persist merely because turning them around doesn't work so well.  It's not POSSIBLE for a woman to have a kid and not know about it, so you're never going to have a plot where a woman finds out about an unsuspected heir and restores his/her birthright.  She might be reunited with a child that was taken from her at birth, but you can't give birth and NOT KNOW ABOUT IT.  (Although, it'd be cool to see a plotline exploring what relationship, if any, a woman might have toward the product of eggs that were harvested from her ovaries and gestated without her knowledge.)

I do see the point in some areas--why are there multiple women to hire and only one man in the brothel?  Could we have the next brothel look more like The Full Monty with tons of buff shirtless guys wandering around and relatively few women?  I mean, the world is full of women like Morrigan and Izzy, one of these clubs has to exist somewhere.  (Although I suppose you could say that it does, kinda--the Qunari enclave.   But then I gotta ask, why are all these hot buff shirtless dudes totally indifferent to sex?  Not fair.)

And, by all means let's have elderly dwarf women hitting vigorously on the male PC.  Or amazonian female elves sneering at him for being "just a man".  I agree with you that it'd be nice to see these sorts of things come up.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:11 .

[mopotter]

Vandicus wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...



It would have had less impact if the male PC and male side of the bridal party were kidnapped and threatened with rape by Vaughan and his two male companions?

Well one of the inherent problems with writing M/M rape scenarios is that it revives an old stereotype of gays frequently being rapists. Not the intent here, but it will be brought up. What're your thoughts on that?

This isn't for  you directly, and someone may have already mentioned it.   Heterosexual men will rape another man.  Rape is about power, anger, control and violence.   Not sex.  Women in their 80's are raped.   it has nothing at all to do with sex.    Most rapist have a partner for sex, some even have a family and go to church.   In 1991 there were approximately 20,000 sexual assaults of males ages 12 and over.  (Bureau of Justice statistics 1992). 

I played the city elf twice.  Played the other options after that.  It would have bothered me just as much if they had taken the elf male.  it would have bothered me just as much if a male mage in DA2 had been threatened and I had no problem killing any of the characters  involved.  

Personally I wouldn't care if  my character was at risk (I play both male and female games) as long as I can kill the attacker and any other character who threatens it to any NPC.

BW, in my opinion, does a pretty good job with all of their characters and stories.  I like the way their characters are human, flawed good, bad and some of both.  

[Brodoteau]

Not to wade too much into this argument, since I can largely see the OP's point (not to mention that female armor in DA:O is ridiculous. At least Aveline is fully covered in DAII) and I'm sorry if someone has already brought up "Women in Refrigerators" http://tvtropes.org/...InRefrigerators as support for the OP but, building off that, a few points:
Most of the issues the OP raises are connected to things which I feel are not actually necessarily to the plot but are used for convienience for the player to understand:
1. When I'm not just playing to find out the alternatives, I always oppose Meredith. It has nothing to do with mages or templars. I might be inclined to support Thrask or Cullen even as a mage, but Meredith was a fascist. She didn't need a magic idol to be a villain. But: A) Subtlety and video games are not always easy to get. Why would I want to fight Meredit at the end? Oh, because she's some crazy woman who is a powerful threat. That's easier. and She needed the magic sword so that the end game could have waves of magic statues and that she would be a credible threat to the PC at the end. Was this sexism? Maybe. I just see it as convienience. Just as Orsino's grand transformation was mostly done so we could have another boss fight.
2. Leandra did not have to die. Her death does not advance the plot significantly. She can still be alive at the end and very little is changed. But if she has to die, for the emotional resonance, she doesn't have be murdered by a serial killer. She could have been killed by a templar when they try to take Bethany or Mage-Hawke. She could have been killed by a stray fireball. She could have been killed after being crushed by a bridge that Hawke caused to crumble. Again, her manner of death of was not necessary but it is something that most of us have seen (in other media), relate to (thanks to news stories) and therefore appreciate the horror. Her death has more to do with Bioware's desire to kill off parental figures than to figure out a way for them to exist. Because, you know, families are inconvienient.
3. Cammen and Emile have to be nerds for their story to exist. If they were confident hot guys, then why would they be nerdy virgins struggling to get the girls? Should Gheyna be nerdier? Maybe. Sure. But than you lose the idea that Cammen is reaching for someone "out of his league" and the whole reason why he needs your help in the first place. So the sexism that exists largely exists only as a means to drive the story.
These are tropes or archetypes here. Does that make them less worthwhile... no. But that doesn't necessarily make them sexist -- even if they can be. Nor does it make them bad and lazy writing. They are there for convienience and quick understanding. Does that suck for women. Probably. But before we start to throw out ideas like "male priviledge", let's take into consideration the form that we are working with here is not one that conveys nuance and subtlety well.

[henkez3]

I think it's funny that everyone seems to be okay with the OP saying that the only men who will hit on her female PC are "ugly", "whiny" and that they are "pathetic virgins" with no "balls". Imagine if the op had been a man and would've described female NPCs like that.

So in this case we have the OP complaining about weak women and the portrayal of women, at the same time, she despises weak men and seems to have a real issue with men that are virgins.

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...
- Vincento as a flighty bad father (another instance of males being portrayed as disloyal)

You can say that again. When was the last time the mother abandoned the family and the father sacrificed his entire life to care for the child?

[Scarlet Rabbi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You see, anyone can play this stupid, vague word game, and type of a whole bunch of words without saying one thing. What are you saying? You list a so called 'problem' but lend no solution. Ohhh, women have it sooo bad, and people who just try to live their lives and treat everyone equally, regardless of sex, are actually part of the problem(gasp)because they do nothing to 'counter' all the BS women put up with. Smh, I suggest getting off your high horse before reality breaks all four of its legs

Describing that someone feels something is a problem does not require a solution to be put forth. Especially if someone may not even know of a particular solution.

As for getting off high horses....

Ok, I see your first point, but I don't fully agree. One should at least attempt to bring a solution to the table, or at it start a discussion in hopes that one will be reached. But, even if they don't, the main issue I have is when someone feels something is a problem, offers no solution or even an attempt at discussing a solution, then goes and says, "And these people are part of the problem", when said people are definitely NOT a part of the problem.

Did you actually take in what she wrote, Allan? She effectively said people like me, who treat everyone as equal individuals, are part of the sexism problem because were not actively engaged in going door to door and shouting "BOTH SEXES ARE EQUAL!" at anyone who answers. Her point is effectively, "If you're not with us, your against us." Absouletly babyish.

Omission from something does not automatically default you to it's polar opposite. It doesn't. It is stupid and childish to think so, to be frank.

I try my hardest to follow the forum rules, but when someone indirectly lables me part of the sexist blob of society, just because I don't go out of my way to declare war on sexism, I take great offense to that, and will call it as I see it.

If you're not 100% anti-hunting, you support poachers, if you're not a part of an anti-pedophile organization, you support pedophiles. You see? This logic is painfully misguided and extremely insulting. And yes, someone who holds any position with that kind of extremity, and who feels they can just point and judge, needs to get off, or be knocked off, their high horse.

Modifié par Scarlet Rabbi, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:26 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Giltspur wrote...

I think the interesting issue comes from contrasting unique content for female PC's and unique content for male PC's and coming up with new ideas.  What isn't interesting to me is a discussion on the portrayal of men and women in video games in general.  Obviously there are good and bad women and men, strong and weak women and men.  You see that in the world.  You see that in Dragon Age.  That's not interesting because I just take it for granted that writers should aspire to that and, hey, Bioware does.  So what sort of unique content for PC based on the PC's gender should there be?  A lot of time the unique content for a female PC is getting called some female-specific negative term or encountering lame pickup lines by unappealing men.  And the unique content for male PC's is the praise of adulation of female NPC's you've helped and feeling the burning envy of all the male NPC's that are lesser men than you the male PC are.  

But there are other situations to put female and male PC's in.  What if a male PC has to work with a woman of power that is a sexist?  Are you going to conflict with her openly?  Are you going to grit your teeth and to try to serve as a counterexample?  How does it go?  

What if, as a female PC, you encounter is a child or a woman that's been victimized by a man and that is more comfortable around a female PC due to feeling  less threatened by the PC?  And if you're a male PC, this same scenario is more challenging to you because your gender is an obstacle to that NPC feeling comfortable around you.

What if you encounter a child that assumes a female PC is a mother figure and gets clingy and needy and hopeful.  Some female PC's might be okay with that, feel rewarded by it.  Others might be like "Uh, you got the wrong woman.  Uh, I'm not like..." and then you know, now what?  Different ways for the female PC to handle the situation.

What if the game has a bisexual NPC that you can have a one-night stand with?  Wiht the female PC, it's just a fling and perhaps a conversation.  But with the male PC, she coaxes him into sex that is seemingly both consentual and violent.  She then accuses him of raping her.  The latter example is probably something people don't want to see in a game.  I bring it up as something that men are more likely to fear than women are.  Another male-specific fear involves people being more suspicious of you around children than they would be of women around children--so you could put that in game.  Again, perhaps that's scary subject matter that people don't want to see.  But it's an example of something male-oriented that isn't a case of everything always being better for men.

So one approach is to make the game ignore gender completely.  I think some things should be like that.  Like being the Hero of Ferelden.  It's much the same for a woman as it is for a man.  But I think it's cool to have gender-specific content here and there.  But it should be a constantly evolving thing from game to game--something that explores interesting situations as opposed to going back to the familiar (man bests his rivals, woman get hits on by creepy dude) for the most part.  And I don't see a problem with going back to the familiar.  That's fine.  But adding in new twists to gender-specific content seems like a good thing.

 

Thank you for the relevant, insightful and 'actually relating to DA3' response. 

It seems like the vast majority of this discussion should be moved to the Off Topic board if it's not going to follow a similar goal as thesimilar concept as this. 

[PsychoBlonde]

Brodoteau wrote...

Not to wade too much into this argument, since I can largely see the OP's point (not to mention that female armor in DA:O is ridiculous. At least Aveline is fully covered in DAII) and I'm sorry if someone has already brought up "Women in Refrigerators" http://tvtropes.org/...InRefrigerators as support for the OP but, building off that, a few points:  

I gotta make one point about the whole "women in refrigerators" thing.  Not too long ago it was basically unacceptable to show ANY violence against women, much less a woman being actually MURDERED, so at the time discovering a woman's actual CORPSE was a giant step FORWARD for equal gender relations.  It became overly common because LOTS of people wanted to show how progressive they were and they forgot that HEY MAYBE WE SHOULD SHOW VIOLENCE AGAINST MEN TOO SOMETIMES.

The reaction can cause as much of a problem as the original problem.  Look at the "brother problem" in a lot of movies where the one black friend of the protagonist is always the one who bites it.  This isn't a result of the fact that the writers hate black people, it's that they wanted to show how progressive they were by including a prominent black character, they didn't make that character the central protagonist, so of course now that character has to die in a dramatic fashion to spur the central protagonist to act.  It's a confluence of "want to show we're progressive" AND "killing off the best friend is a huge motivator", not a conspiracy to kill off black dudes--if the Token Black Guy is 3rd or 4th friend in a larger group, he doesn't die as much.  Likewise, if there's MORE THAN ONE female character, neither of them winds up helpless, tied up, or stuffed in a fridge quite so much.

I'm not saying bad tropes don't persist, but sometimes the things people bring up became tropes for what was originally a well-intended reason.

[Sol Downer]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm strongly considering stating that the original idea of diversifying and even pushing some types of gender stereotypes and closing this thread, because it's pretty volatile....

Lockdown? Please? I think at this point there's nothing more to say, so I'll just sum things up.

"You're a woman."
"You're a man."
"It happens everywhere."
"You don't understand."
"Looks like we got a badass over here."
"Let's solve this peacefully."
"Nope."
"Somebody's gonna fall here and it's sure not going to be me!"
The End.

[Droma]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

lol. I'm sorry... I... this post is funny. I'm *not* being snarky when I say that, I mean that it's just very interesting how some people may interpret my request. I'm not asking that someone soar in on a magical white horse and "beat up" people who sexually harrass me in public. I mean, well, I guess if they want to... but that's just going to get someone into a lot of trouble - perhaps some assault charges, or as you've described - physical injuries.

I'm asking for something impossible. That's the f*ck of it. I'm asking for something much bigger than chivalry. There shouldn't be any need for chivalry, because sexism just shouldn't even be a thing.

I'm asking for people to raise human beings correctly - to demonstrate that sexism is weird and unnatural. I mean, maybe it shouldn't be tolerated from day 1. Like when a little boy scoffs at a doll or groans at something that's pink, people should look at him like he's "weird" for whining "THIS IS FOR GIRLS!" because that's where that b.s. mentality starts. Right there. Trust me... (little seeds planted in the brain...)

the problem with that is, that there are actually a lot of girls who "enjoy" these kind of compliments. gives them self-confidence. also a lot of guys are just aweful at making good compliments. of cause also a lot are simply douchebags.

also from a man's perspective: until the mid twenties/earlier thirties, all the great looking girls seem to be in a relationship with a total douchebag. So as a guy you wonder, if somehow women seem to be more into douchebags than actually nice guys? I personally think if i would have treated women sometimes with less respect, I would have had more girlfriends in my life. irony isn't it?

and for your other post. ok it makes more sense now =D

Modifié par Droma, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:28 .

[Brohammed]

So basically you want to suck the fun out of playing a gender you are not WHILE making any unique or oppressive aspects about Thedas gone because you find them offensive?

This is the single worst post in all of BSN Maria, and you should feel bad for making it.