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Gender Differences I Don't Want to See


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#326
PsychoBlonde

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MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
- Vincento as a flighty bad father (another instance of males being portrayed as disloyal)

You can say that again. When was the last time the mother abandoned the family and the father sacrificed his entire life to care for the child?


What about Aveline's dad?  What about Ninnete de Carrac?  She was quite dissolute.

Keep in mind there is a physical reason why this trope is more common in one form than in another--women are automatically in custody of the child from birth.  A man can't breast-feed newborn, and there ain't no such thing as Enfamil formula in Thedas, so the woman's likely going to be stuck with custody for quite some time.  It is generally true (not universally true, but generally true) that men often have more opportunities to abandon their responsibilities than women do.

That's not to say art is or even should try to be some statistical representation of reality, it's just that when there's a statistical prevalence of a given situation it's more likely to be at the forefront of an artist's mind when they're creating the situation, and they have a limited amount of attention to pay to ALL the side details.

#327
robertthebard

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Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

It's kinda funny, in an ironic kind of way, but I was going to say something to a guy that commented on my GF's ass at Riverfest a few years back, and she stopped me.  She then turned to him and told him that it was too bad he'd never see any more of it.  She had a number just for guys that harrassed her for it too:  1-800-eat-sh*t.  She refused to be a "victim" of this kind of thing.  Of course, she was a professional stripper, and I was a professional bouncer.  It was my job to defend the ladies, even when they were wrong.  They didn't much care for the way I handled them after the threat was dealt with if I felt they were wrong though, since I would point it out.  I carry a 3 inch long scar in my head from a broken poolcue for defending my bro's wife at a strip club one night, and I didn't even work there.  I did escort the 5 guys involved out after the smoke cleared though.

Here's the funny:  I do stand up for women when something like the things you describe happen close to me.  I will, however, call them on their BS if the situation was caused by them.  If I'd been at your bus stop, I'd have stepped up on your behalf, but frankly, after taking a look at me, you would have probably acted the same way towards me as you did towards the guy that asked you for your number, you know, like I was just trying to get in your pants.  I've seen that happen before.  Chivalry isn't dead, but sometimes, it can shoot you in the foot, when you innocently step in to protect someone's honor.  Especially when the someone in question acts like you're no different than the initial problem.  My friend's wife, mentioned above, didn't hold that view, but we'd known eachother for years.  She was mad, at first, that I had gotten involved, especially since my head was bleeding rather profusely, but after she found out I was fine, she was glad I'd helped her.

That's the dilemma most men like me find themselves in, and some, quite frankly, prefer to do nothing than to be accused of assuming that "I couldn't handle it on my own".  You know, for casting a woman into a stereotypical helpless female role?


lol. I'm sorry... I... this post is funny. I'm *not* being snarky when I say that, I mean that it's just very interesting how some people may interpret my request. I'm not asking that someone soar in on a magical white horse and "beat up" people who sexually harrass me in public. I mean, well, I guess if they want to... but that's just going to get someone into a lot of trouble - perhaps some assault charges, or as you've described - physical injuries.

I'm asking for something impossible. That's the f*ck of it. I'm asking for something much bigger than chivalry. There shouldn't be any need for chivalry, because sexism just shouldn't even be a thing.

I'm asking for people to raise human beings correctly - to demonstrate that sexism is weird and unnatural. I mean, maybe it shouldn't be tolerated from day 1. Like when a little boy scoffs at a doll or groans at something that's pink, people should look at him like he's "weird" for whining "THIS IS FOR GIRLS!" because that's where that b.s. mentality starts. Right there. Trust me... (little seeds planted in the brain...)

But this is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.  I wouldn't necessarily have to resort to violence to stop the bus stop guy from harrassing you, but you took it straight to violence.  The situation at the bar was going one way, all I did was shift the focus, and initially, I tried to do it peacefully.  It just didn't pan out.  However, as we can see, you'd have been more taken aback by what might have happened if I had been there, and it had escalated to violence than you were by being asked for your phone number.  I don't appreciate it when it happens, but I have learned to expect that a "damsel in distress" might be more afraid of me after an episode like that than the initial situation.  This is likely why most men won't do anything.

Can we do away with it?  Probably not.  Racism is still rearing it's ugly head.  However, in both instances it is getting better.  Will we ever be free of it?  No, there are always going to be those that feel that they are superior, for whatever reason.  However, perpetuating the stereotype won't help.  "You wouldn't understand, because your a man" perpetuates the stereotype.  I learned how to fight because I was bullied growing up.  I was small for my age in school, didn't hit my spurt growth until high school, so I was always an "easy mark", so I understand exactly what it's like.  At some point, I got tired of it, and fought back, and then, it stopped happening.  It wasn't an overnight kind of thing, but eventually, people left me alone.  Everybody has the potential to stand up for themselves, and some are going to be better at it than others, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be encouraged to try.

Railing against it in a fantasy setting isn't going to alleviate the problem, however.  There is only so much that a game is actually responsible for, and that is presentation.  Interpretation is entirely up to the individual.

#328
Palipride47

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I've wasted all my "-ism" anger over in the race thread.....

I will merely state that I agree with some of the OPs points (the violence against women bit, and sexual harassment for women bit), that all of us need to be AWARE that this exists, we should all go look up Anita Sarkeesian:

http://www.kickstart...-in-video-games
(she is also playing Dragon Age as one of the games she is using for her series)

Since we live in society and are part of it, we may not even see the problem until someone points it out.

However, I think the OP may have exaggerated some instances and examples (some of them I don't even remember, or interpreted it differently, or remember an example-like the threesome-that wasn't gender restricted), but THE POINT REMAINS VALID

Bioware is, HANDS DOWN, the best major video game developer that has tried to bust these stereotypes and tropes, and I really appreciate that they try and do make a CONCERTED, HONEST effort

Modifié par Palipride47, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:36 .


#329
Emzamination

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Ultimashade wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm strongly considering stating that the original idea of diversifying and even pushing some types of gender stereotypes and closing this thread, because it's pretty volatile....


Lockdown? Please? I think at this point there's nothing more to say, so I'll just sum things up.

"You're a woman."
"You're a man."
"It happens everywhere."
"You don't understand."
"Looks like we got a badass over here."
"Let's solve this peacefully."
"Nope."
"Somebody's gonna fall here and it's sure not going to be me!"
The End.


We are attempting to have a serious discussion on a serious matter in this thread. I take offense at your attempt to belittle that discussion, when it clearly shows you've only read one or two pages, if that. Allan will do what he must when the time comes.

Modifié par Emzamination, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:35 .


#330
Zkyire

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Brohammed wrote...

So basically you want to suck the fun out of playing a gender you are not WHILE making any unique or oppressive aspects about Thedas gone because you find them offensive?

This is the single worst post in all of BSN Maria, and you should feel bad for making it.


"This is part of the world of this story? I don't care, make everything equal in every way or don't put it in at all! I'm offended, and damnit that matters!"

Hell, even some of the examples she used were complete nonsense anyway.

She thinks Orsino's transformation was about power? He turned into an abomination and lost complete control. No control = no power.

Or that Cailan's death was treated with reverence? He was betrayed, has his army butchered due to his own stupidity, was himself crushed to death, and then had his half naked body strung up on display, prone to the elements to rot or be eaten by the crows.

#331
mousestalker

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Could we work our anger issues out somewhere else, please?

#332
Sol Downer

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Emzamination wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm strongly considering stating that the original idea of diversifying and even pushing some types of gender stereotypes and closing this thread, because it's pretty volatile....


Lockdown? Please? I think at this point there's nothing more to say, so I'll just sum things up.

"You're a woman."
"You're a man."
"It happens everywhere."
"You don't understand."
"Looks like we got a badass over here."
"Let's solve this peacefully."
"Nope."
"Somebody's gonna fall here and it's sure not going to be me!"
The End.


We are attempting to have a serious discussion on a serious matter in this thread. I take offense at your attempt to belittle that discussion, when it clearly shows you've only read one or two pages, if that. Allan will do what he must when the time comes.


You don't clearly know ****, I read the entire thread and all I can see is hostility on both sides. There is NOTHING here that helps ANYBODY.

#333
Dave of Canada

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I half-agree with you, Maria. The point about having attractive women flirting with male characters and "joke" male characters flirting with women is true, that's not a gender difference that needs to go away--it simply needs to be expanded upon, more characters like Dairren for women, more "joke" characters for men.

However, the last part seems like you're desperately trying to make connections to find sexism where none exists, ties like Meredith and Orsino are ridiculous and others like the City Elves being kidnapped dismisses the fact that it was caused by a man who had no redeemable traits whatsever--is that sexist towards men? Of course not, there's even female empowerment there if you're playing a female City Elf and gut him.

Removing things like this just seems like they're less about trying to tell a story and more about trying to make the most politically correct story ever that might never offend anyone, which is impossible. If you're making connections to Meredith's statue as it being somehow a violation of women, I can't help but think you'll never be satisfied.

#334
Joy Divison

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@ Trista Faux Hawk

As one of the posters who you believe "vehemently flamed" the women who openly said to the effect of, "You are a man. You can't (and are unwilling to) understand," I feel the need to comment.

This was what I said:

RinjiRenee wrote...

Here, I'll quickly illustrate for you since you are obviously male and don't know any better.

Was this necessary?


That's not "jumping down her throat." All I did was ask if it was necessary to engage in precisely the same kind of behavior/attitudes she wishes to change.

I think you're projecting the frustrations at the various "Steves" you have encountered into the world onto things that aren't there.

I know I am certainly not the "they" who "haven't 'done' anything to counter the b.s. we put up with," even if the frustrations you experienced in your life leads you to believe that I am.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:42 .


#335
Lennard Testarossa

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PsychoBlonde wrote...
Keep in mind there is a physical reason why this trope is more common in one form than in another--women are automatically in custody of the child from birth.


There's also a physical reason why women are the default for (sexual) violation.

#336
Emzamination

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Ultimashade wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm strongly considering stating that the original idea of diversifying and even pushing some types of gender stereotypes and closing this thread, because it's pretty volatile....


Lockdown? Please? I think at this point there's nothing more to say, so I'll just sum things up.

"You're a woman."
"You're a man."
"It happens everywhere."
"You don't understand."
"Looks like we got a badass over here."
"Let's solve this peacefully."
"Nope."
"Somebody's gonna fall here and it's sure not going to be me!"
The End.


We are attempting to have a serious discussion on a serious matter in this thread. I take offense at your attempt to belittle that discussion, when it clearly shows you've only read one or two pages, if that. Allan will do what he must when the time comes.


You don't clearly know ****, I read the entire thread and all I can see is hostility on both sides. There is NOTHING here that helps ANYBODY.


Cease your Incessant babbling, you've read nothing and it shows in your post.If you don't like the discussion that's going on in this thread, feel free to leave and don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out. What doesn't help anyone is some random person yelling lockdown. Allan will close this thread when he deems it too much, he doesn't need any damn coaxing from you.

Modifié par Emzamination, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:40 .


#337
Zkyire

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Dave of Canada wrote...

I half-agree with you, Maria. The point about having attractive women flirting with male characters and "joke" male characters flirting with women is true, that's not a gender difference that needs to go away--it simply needs to be expanded upon, more characters like Dairren for women, more "joke" characters for men.

However, the last part seems like you're desperately trying to make connections to find sexism where none exists, ties like Meredith and Orsino are ridiculous and others like the City Elves being kidnapped dismisses the fact that it was caused by a man who had no redeemable traits whatsever--is that sexist towards men? Of course not, there's even female empowerment there if you're playing a female City Elf and gut him.

Removing things like this just seems like they're less about trying to tell a story and more about trying to make the most politically correct story ever that might never offend anyone, which is impossible. If you're making connections to Meredith's statue as it being somehow a violation of women, I can't help but think you'll never be satisfied.


Completely 100% agree with you.

#338
Sol Downer

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Emzamination wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm strongly considering stating that the original idea of diversifying and even pushing some types of gender stereotypes and closing this thread, because it's pretty volatile....


Lockdown? Please? I think at this point there's nothing more to say, so I'll just sum things up.

"You're a woman."
"You're a man."
"It happens everywhere."
"You don't understand."
"Looks like we got a badass over here."
"Let's solve this peacefully."
"Nope."
"Somebody's gonna fall here and it's sure not going to be me!"
The End.


We are attempting to have a serious discussion on a serious matter in this thread. I take offense at your attempt to belittle that discussion, when it clearly shows you've only read one or two pages, if that. Allan will do what he must when the time comes.


You don't clearly know ****, I read the entire thread and all I can see is hostility on both sides. There is NOTHING here that helps ANYBODY.


Cease your Incessant babbling, you've read nothing and it shows in your post.If you don't like the discussion that's going on in this thread, feel free to leave and don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out. What doesn't help anyone is some random person yelling lockdown. Allan will close this thread when he deems it too much, he doesn't need any damn coaxing from you.


And it shows in my post how? Give me one valid point, just one, that shows that I've read nothing. You can't, know why? Because there's nothing there. So let's leave it at this, I don't know you, you don't know me, go to hell. I have seen just a portion...a tiny little portion of people that choose to at least try to be civil here, you aren't one of them.

#339
slimgrin

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm strongly considering stating that the original idea of diversifying and even pushing some types of gender stereotypes and closing this thread, because it's pretty volatile....


This isn't about diversifying, it's about ticking the PC checklist, about asking the writers to shackle themselves creatively before even starting. It's about conforming. Honeslty surprised Maria made this post.

Modifié par slimgrin, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:44 .


#340
Ibn_Shisha

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Speaking as a devils advocate here, there is a certain amount of realism to consider. We see this sort of thing in medieval setting fiction because it is true to actual medieval historic conditions. Our history had many more Sansas and Miriameles than it had Polgaras or Egwenes.

#341
Brodoteau

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

I gotta make one point about the whole "women in refrigerators" thing.  Not too long ago it was basically unacceptable to show ANY violence against women, much less a woman being actually MURDERED, so at the time discovering a woman's actual CORPSE was a giant step FORWARD for equal gender relations.  It became overly common because LOTS of people wanted to show how progressive they were and they forgot that HEY MAYBE WE SHOULD SHOW VIOLENCE AGAINST MEN TOO SOMETIMES.


This was kind of my point as well.  Though I would quibble with your "step forward for woman to show this corpse"; Gwen Stacey died in comics and was shown as a corpse long before Kyle Rayner's girlfriend was stuck in a fridge.  But that also is my point.  Gwen Stacey's death was subtle, nuanced and meaningful.  She didn't need to be cut up and put in a fridge for it to have meaning.  Sometimes these things are done for the sake of the story but other times for the sheer visceral shock that it might cause.  And while it is sad that a dead woman is not as shocking as a "dead woman in a fridge", it 's true. 

The reaction can cause as much of a problem as the original problem.  Look at the "brother problem" in a lot of movies where the one black friend of the protagonist is always the one who bites it.  This isn't a result of the fact that the writers hate black people, it's that they wanted to show how progressive they were by including a prominent black character, they didn't make that character the central protagonist, so of course now that character has to die in a dramatic fashion to spur the central protagonist to act.  It's a confluence of "want to show we're progressive" AND "killing off the best friend is a huge motivator", not a conspiracy to kill off black dudes--if the Token Black Guy is 3rd or 4th friend in a larger group, he doesn't die as much.  Likewise, if there's MORE THAN ONE female character, neither of them winds up helpless, tied up, or stuffed in a fridge quite so much.

I'm not saying bad tropes don't persist, but sometimes the things people bring up became tropes for what was originally a well-intended reason.


Again, this was the intention of my post.  There are storyline reasons for these things to occur.  But often, they are they don't offer significant value to the story.  Was there are real reason why Bethany or Carver had to die?  No. Other than party balance.  And most people reacted to the brutal slaying of a character by an ogre with a big "meh" because people get brutally murdered in these games all the time.  Also, however, because the death served convienience.  

Lastly, to turn this back to DA3.  Can we not get a country, like Rivain or Nevarra or whereever somewhere that is actually a matriarchy (think the Drow in DnD but where all the female character aren't evil because they are b*itchy.  Which, sadly is usually the way to make a woman evil in a video game)?  Can we go to a place where are all these gender stereotypes are turned on their head and where actually playing a male character would be detrimental to completing the quest?   That would be added content for both genders.

#342
PsychoBlonde

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Lennard Testarossa wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...
Keep in mind there is a physical reason why this trope is more common in one form than in another--women are automatically in custody of the child from birth.


There's also a physical reason why women are the default for (sexual) violation.


Sure, I'm not saying there isn't, but the physical difference is not a controlling one in this instance.  There's also a psychological reason why men are more prone to violence against women.  Men are also more prone to strong misogyny than women are prone to strong misandry.  From my personal experience it's *extremely* unusual for a man or woman who is sexually interested in their own sex to also have feelings of violent negative evaluation of members of that sex.  So, take all the aspects of this together, and yeah, you're going to have vastly more rape targeted at women simply because a someone only has to be (comparatively speaking) a LITTLE crazy to target women whereas the those who target men are a LOT crazy, and there are way, way more people who are a little crazy than a lot crazy.

#343
Allan Schumacher

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Closing this one down because it'd take too much effort to clean it back up. Sorry.