342 réponses à ce sujet

[Dirgegun]

berelinde wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

Personally I wish more males would flirt with my male Warden/Hake. My flirtatious Donovan Hawke got a kick out of it whenever there was the option.

Male/male flirting isn't really the point of this thread, but whatever flirting your Donovan received is still more than his female counterparts got. The only people who showed an interest in her were lecherous mercenaries or idiotic virgins. In all cases, it was treated as a joke, not as a statement about her desirability. Would peppering the game with fawning Adonises be better? Of course not. But it would be more fair to include more parity about the encounters. It would not kill the male protagonist to have to fend off unwelcome attention. Or, failing that, make the attention the female receives less degrading.

I didn't really add that as something to pick  out and make it seem like I'm a-okay with sexisim or something, more as a mood lightener I guess or an offhand topic.

Would a more equal level of flirting for both genders be good? Of course, and I would like to see that. I never said otherwise. My problem with the cries of sexism is when it seems like people are taking it a little too far, and to the point that it would take away from story. 

[Dirgegun]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

You and several others seem to be missing Maria's point. She never said Dragon Age didn't have strong female characters, or strong male characters.

Go back and look at her list of unique content for male characters compared to female characters. Do you see nothing  unfair in how one gender is treated compared to the other in terms of that unique content?

Yes, both genders get to be Big Damn Heroes and win the game no matter what. But why, in situations when the game bothers to check your character's gender, do females tend to have a much more unappealing array of unique content than males? Why is it the norm, in a fantasy game of all things, to have female characters belittled and threatened due to their gender, while male characters get kisses from hot barmaids or a heroic role in a rescue scene?

Why is there nothing wrong with this picture?

That was one point I made in reply to a comment that I agreed with. I posted before that with something more relevent to the OP, too, but whatever let's run with your point...

If I've taken you out of context then I apologise. Your post was in response to several others that had a strong undercurrent of 'It doesn't matter if bad stuff happens to characters because there's plenty of cool stuff to counterbalance it.' The cool stuff was never in dispute. The problem is said cool stuff is weighed much more heavily in favour of male characters.

I didn't find any of the female 'conquests' anymore attractive than the males. That's the problem with personal opinion and our own perception of beauty, though. I personaly think everyone looks rather normal. That might be influenced by my own sexuality or whatever, but there you go.

As for Bella... I feel the men stared, not because the player was supposed to see her as attractive, but because of her personality and character. The men in the tavern KNOW her, while the Warden has just met her. I took that moment as meaning that they didn't think they would ever see her, as they know her, give someone a heroes kiss just because he asked.

So... more gobsmacked 'what is this' than I AM SO JEALOUS THAT SHE DOES NOT KISS ME.

Sadly it's...rather telling that of all the points you could have focussed on for your rebuttal, it was kissing and rating the attractiveness of NPCs that you flew with.

I guess when I asked "Why is there nothing wrong with this picture?" the answer was "Because people are so used to it they don't even see it anymore." :/

Edit: reduced quote pyramid

I used that because it seems to be the one people are focused on most. If you want to say that's 'telling' of my character, than... I won't even say anything to that, actually.

I've already posted my feelings over the Broodmothers, if that was what you were looking for, and as for the City Elf story? I felt it made sense for that particular part of the story. I suppose they could have written it differently, but that might have taken away the impact it had.

I don't like rape for shock value, but if a proper story can be written around it then I'm not about to flash my feminist ID card and tell a story writer 'no'. I'm a writer myself, and if I tip toed around every single issue because some people could arm themselves with pitchforks over it, then there are a lot of stories that wouldn't ever get told. 

Modifié par Dirgegun, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:10 .

[Dirgegun]

Mims wrote...

As a woman, I both agree and disagree. On one hand, this is a game, you shouldn't have to sit through sexist comments on your down time. But on the other hand, some characters are just sexist. Some themes do explore gender issues or gender fears.

But I totally, totally agree there needs to be more equality. Sexist remarks and rape should not be treated as shock value. It shouldn't be exploitative.

I personally found the broodmother and city elf starting area to be rather chilling. I didn't feel it was being overly exploitative. The broodmother plays on both male and female fears, and provides a somewhat reasonable explanation as to why there are fewer women in the grey wardens.

To me, the city elves were all being equally oppressed. Men were forced to endure the degradation of the nobles, and were largely just losing hope. The PC elf and his/her cousins were a rarity in the town.

Now. That said. I DO consider offhanded remarks of rape to be exploitative. In the same starting area, I thought it was a bit meh to have the girl elf basically go, "woe is me I am going to be raped if someone doesn't give me some money". I also didn't feel the backstory of the elf in one of the books needed the sex slave aspect to it. When something feels tacked on, its hard to shake.

Basically, I feel this: if rape is to be addressed, it needs to be given a reason why. It shouldn't just be treated as something that makes the story "more real." Or plays on men/women's desire to protect women.

This is pretty much my feelings, though I don't have anything against the occasional remark from a NPC if it's in their character to do so. It just needs to be balanced with women that are sleezy towards men or something of the like. Just as long as story and freedom of character creation isn't being limited.

And I apologise for the multiple posts in a row. ><

Modifié par Dirgegun, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:16 .

[Sejborg]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ArinTheirinCousland wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Point being... yes, there is probably an uneven portrayal of EVERY group fitting into certain stereotypes. Its part of the narrative consciousness, after 10,000 years of telling stories, certain concepts, roles and paradigms will be in place. And, despite how hard a writer may want to avoid such stereotypes, it would ultimately be futile, as otherwise, the characters would be so foreign as to be unable to connect to them.

Because as others said, while there are a disproportionate number of "victim" females, there is also a LARGE number of strong female characters, characters which don't take **** from anyone, and which could serve as a model for other media to take some lessons from.

But don't you think the weight of issues such as rape (and other things that tend to only happen to female characters) surpasses those you mentioned? I mean, just because other groups are unfairly portrayed, doesn't make it balanced. And yes, there are many strong female characters, all of which I love and appreciate, but again their presence doesn't "balance" this particular issue.

That being said, I don't think there's any way to counter this other than having it be absent and if that's the case, I'd rather see it still implemented, if only because at the end of the day, your character will be the one to kick ass while all the rotten scum will still have nothing to show.

I have to agree. If the only alternative to not talking about women getting raped, women being brutalized, women being abducted/kidnapped is that NO ONE is raped, brutalized or taken against their will, then I feel that the story will only suffer because of it.

Although I do agree that the women in games do seem to receive the most EXTREME treatment more often than not. The only alternative to that would be to give the same treatement to men (which wouldn't make sense in some cases, like the Broodmother) or to remove the content altogether. I'm not sure what a good solution would be that doesn't involve creepy subjects like male prison rape or hentai-type creatures that turn their sights on men... which is UBER creepy... 

Again, my point being - I see the problem, but I don't think there is a solution, even if the writers "keep it in mind" when they craft material.

I don't see why men from a story telling point of view shouldn't be raped. Zevran tells that he has been with both men and woman. And being gay or bi in the Dragon Age universe isn't really something that people care much about. Being one or the other sexuality is kind of a none existing issue. But why only depict straight people as being the capable of rape?  Creepy subjects you say? Rape is in itself creepy. Saying that raping women is less creepy then raping men is... well, isn't that kinda sexist? 

As an example. In Origins when the Warden is taken prisoner during the mission to save Anora. That would have been an opportunity to rape the warden and possibly Alistair. It might have been too much to let the PC get raped, because that would probably have put a great too many people off. But having Alistair being raped when brought along, could have been something the writers could have done. It could have been an interesting story to tell, about a companion being raped and dealing with that. On the other hand it might be potentially incredibly disturbing from a metagaming point of view, because practically you would let people decide whether or not Alistair deserves to get raped in their current playthrough.

Anyway. I don't see how it is "justified" or more acceptable from a story telling point of view to have women raped. But having men raped is less acceptable. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Dirgegun wrote...

I've already posted my feelings over the Broodmothers, if that was what you were looking for,

Yes, biology. I saw. A species that was magically created for some reason has to breed through rape and mutation of women.

Biology.

and as for the City Elf story? I felt it made sense for that particular part of the story. I suppose they could have written it differently, but that might have taken away the impact it had.

It would have had less impact if the male PC and male side of the bridal party were kidnapped and threatened with rape by Vaughan and his two male companions?

I don't like rape for shock value, but if a proper story can be written around it then I'm not about to flash my feminist ID card.

Oh, I agree. But a proper story can not only be written around more than rape. It can be written about more than women in the role of the victim.

[esper]

esper wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ArinTheirinCousland wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Point being... yes, there is probably an uneven portrayal of EVERY group fitting into certain stereotypes. Its part of the narrative consciousness, after 10,000 years of telling stories, certain concepts, roles and paradigms will be in place. And, despite how hard a writer may want to avoid such stereotypes, it would ultimately be futile, as otherwise, the characters would be so foreign as to be unable to connect to them.

Because as others said, while there are a disproportionate number of "victim" females, there is also a LARGE number of strong female characters, characters which don't take **** from anyone, and which could serve as a model for other media to take some lessons from.

But don't you think the weight of issues such as rape (and other things that tend to only happen to female characters) surpasses those you mentioned? I mean, just because other groups are unfairly portrayed, doesn't make it balanced. And yes, there are many strong female characters, all of which I love and appreciate, but again their presence doesn't "balance" this particular issue.

That being said, I don't think there's any way to counter this other than having it be absent and if that's the case, I'd rather see it still implemented, if only because at the end of the day, your character will be the one to kick ass while all the rotten scum will still have nothing to show.

I have to agree. If the only alternative to not talking about women getting raped, women being brutalized, women being abducted/kidnapped is that NO ONE is raped, brutalized or taken against their will, then I feel that the story will only suffer because of it.

Although I do agree that the women in games do seem to receive the most EXTREME treatment more often than not. The only alternative to that would be to give the same treatement to men (which wouldn't make sense in some cases, like the Broodmother) or to remove the content altogether. I'm not sure what a good solution would be that doesn't involve creepy subjects like male prison rape or hentai-type creatures that turn their sights on men... which is UBER creepy... 

Again, my point being - I see the problem, but I don't think there is a solution, even if the writers "keep it in mind" when they craft material.

I am sorry, but why is this more creepy than a threath to rape a woman? I for my part would like to see this in some form. Male rape is still rape and if women are so threathen with this to bring horror/grim into the game so should men be.

Just as I would like to see a pathectic woman come on to male protagonist some time.

I am going to quite myself here to add to the rape discussion

and add something about Cullen. I did not find his attraction to my Surana a compliment. I found it creepy do to the fact that he handled it with running away which showed that he was not capable of dealing with it mataturely. Do to the fact that he was in a position of power over my PC had he snapped and suddenly acted on the obsession (and it was an obsession) it could have ended very badly.

Luckely for Cullen's characther the PC is removed (or if not pc) killed before he can act it out.

Modifié par esper, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:18 .

[Dubya75]

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

[Dirgegun]

Yes, biology. I saw. A species that was magically created for some reason has to breed through rape and mutation of women.

Biology.

I meant as in women have ovaries. Could they have not had the humans/elves/dwarves/qunari involved in the creation of darkspawn? Sure, but I actually like that the races we can play are a part of that cycle. It makes the darkspawn a much more chilling threat, the idea that we're fighting curropted, twisted versions of 'ourselves'. 

...I also prefer that, to... I don't know... a darkspawn bite turning people into other darkspawn? That feels rather simple and vampire/werewolf-ish.

It would have had less impact if the male PC and male side of the bridal party were kidnapped and threatened with rape by Vaughan and his two male companions?

I was actually thinking that after posting. I certainly wouldn't have had a thing against it if that was how it happened.

Oh, I agree. But a proper story can not only be written around more than rape. It can be written about more than women in the role of the victim.

Oh, definitely! I certainly would like to see some more men in the victim roll if they're going to put women in the victim roll.

Modifié par Dirgegun, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:50 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

"This is where you tell me “but Mama Hawke’s death was touching!” It was touching. It was also an extended sequence (and series of quests) built around a man murdering and mutilating a group of women that ends with you mother being transformed into a necromantic horror."

How ridiculous. You're here saying that because of the fact that it was a man who killed Hawke's mother, it was a psuedo-sexist game event. If a men were to be murdered by a woman, i could come and rant about the event with as much "proof" as you have here.

This is where equality blurs with androgyny. The OP also has a hilariously severe double standard.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:52 .

[syllogi]

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

Modifié par syllogi, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:38 .

[Emzamination]

Dubya75 wrote...

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.

[Darth Death]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

So people want realistic combat, graphics, armor and clothing. But don't want realistic characters and story.

If Bioware will listen to this crap you post here, the story of this game will never get even close to the games like Planescape Torment or Witcher.

The witcher targets adult audiences only. What's been described in the op is unrealistic, child-like, disney-fied storytelling holding no place within the realms of "dark fantasy".   

[Palidane]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
This is where equality blurs with androgyny. The OP has a severe double standard.

I agree. This kind of thinking is poisonous. The OP ignored all of the multiple strong and diverse female characters Bioware has created in favor of "Some women get murdered in horrible ways. This is obviously sexist, since there's no way women get murdered in horrible ways in real life". When people start complaining about female villians and women dying, your basically telling the developers that nothing negative can be done to or by women because it reflects badly on them in real life.

And what's worse is how easyily I can turn this around. "Of the bandits I have fought in DAII, 90% were men. I think this is sexist toward men, and we should have more insane sadistic women who like going around killing people and taking their stuff, in the interest of gender equality,"

Modifié par Palidane, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:45 .

[Dirgegun]

syllogi wrote...

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

Interesting read, and I certainly don't think rape is needed, if this happens to be directed towards me in anyway. I tend to get paranoid and socially awkward, so... yeah...

Don't mind my fretting.

What I was saying that if there is a story to be told that involves it, that is not purely shock value or 'look at how gritty I am', then the author shouldn't be told their sexist for it. 

[Dirgegun]

Darth Death wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

So people want realistic combat, graphics, armor and clothing. But don't want realistic characters and story.

If Bioware will listen to this crap you post here, the story of this game will never get even close to the games like Planescape Torment or Witcher.

The witcher targets adult audiences only. What's been described in the op is unrealistic, child-like, disney-fied storytelling holding no place within the realms of "dark fantasy".   

And the Witcher hands you conquest cards for each woman you sleep with. It's pretty much a "gotta collect them all!" set up.

[esper]

syllogi wrote...

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

And that that question was even asked the author is why we need to have these discussions. So we can be more aware of those weird ideas and tolerances we have. I am not saying we have to do away with them, but at least less discuss them.

(Horrible story btw)

Modifié par esper, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:49 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Maria, you are a brave, brave woman to open this thread. I'm about to drown in the mansplaining and indignant offense taken at the mere idea of 'victimize men and women equally, not just women', and I'm not even the target of it. Yeesh.

In short, you are right. Not that you need me to tell you this, of course.

[Dubya75]

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.

I'm sorry but I think it is out of order to expect the gaming industry to bend and adjust itself around individuals' insecurities. If that makes me appear insensitive then so be it.

[Emzamination]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

So people want realistic combat, graphics, armor and clothing. But don't want realistic characters and story.

If Bioware will listen to this crap you post here, the story of this game will never get even close to the games like Planescape Torment or Witcher.

Your two game examples are the type of sexist media maria is talking about.The witcher portrays women in grotesque sexual stigmas and planescape torment gives the nameless one the option to degrade and make women subservient via cruelty to get what he desires I.e: Deionarra.

[Harle Cerulean]

Dubya75 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.

I'm sorry but I think it is out of order to expect the gaming industry to bend and adjust itself around individuals' insecurities. If that makes me appear insensitive then so be it.

Gaslighting.  The problem isn't an individual's insecurities, it's media's, including videogames, portrayal and use of women.

[Beerfish]

It follows the theme of tv shows and tv commercials. Let's take sitcoms for instance. In almost every case they have some dumpy not so good looking male lead having a from cute to gorgeous wife.

[Vandicus]

syllogi wrote...

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

Would it ok if there was the threat of M/M rape in sensible contexts?


I think the argument of "realism"  is that the subject matter is reflective of our real world. That the rapist is typically male does lend itself to some questions of sexism. If the male rapes a female it has negative implications about straight males. If the male rapes a male it has a negative implication about gay/bi males.

In a way, rape as addressed in stories is sexist against both parties, the idea that males are the perpetrator is as inherently sexist as portraying females as the victims. Adding in M/M rapes mitigates the inherently sexist nature in regards to the female participant, while still leaving the implications of an "Always Male" villain archetype. If we add in F/M and F/F rapes, and represent them with roughly the same frequency as M/M and M/F, we avoid inherently sexist implications of any sort. It doesn't reflect the our world though. 

So the question is, what standard are we seeking to achieve? If its realism(in context meaning modeled after real world conflicts), it becomes acceptable to making rapes predominantly M/F and M/M. If its to represent rape without including sexist elements, we'd need representation of all forms of rape.

Modifié par Vandicus, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:56 .

[esper]

Palidane wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
This is where equality blurs with androgyny. The OP has a severe double standard.

I agree. This kind of thinking is poisonous. The OP ignored all of the multiple strong and diverse female characters Bioware has created in favor of "Some women get murdered in horrible ways. This is obviously sexist, since there's no way women get murdered in horrible ways in real life". When people start complaining about female villians and women dying, your basically telling the developers that nothing negative can be done to or by women because it reflects badly on them in real life.

And what's worse is how easyily I can turn this around. "Of the bandits I have fought in DAII, 90% were men. I think this is sexist toward men, and we should have more insane sadistic women who like going around killing people and taking their stuff, in the interest of gender equality,"

This kind of thinking is the opposite of poisionous. The turn around just enforced the OP point. If the women are the victims, it stands to reason that the men more often than not will be the harmer. Why? Why should we accept that?

There is nothing wrong with given the male pc /player  equal moments of discomfort. It doesn't have to be from the same persons, but it should be portrayed in a world as allegedly dark as dragon age.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Palidane wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
This is where equality blurs with androgyny. The OP has a severe double standard.

I agree. This kind of thinking is poisonous. The OP ignored all of the multiple strong and diverse female characters Bioware has created in favor of "Some women get murdered in horrible ways. This is obviously sexist, since there's no way women get murdered in horrible ways in real life". When people start complaining about female villians and women dying, your basically telling the developers that nothing negative can be done to or by women because it reflects badly on them in real life.

And what's worse is how easyily I can turn this around. "Of the bandits I have fought in DAII, 90% were men. I think this is sexist toward men, and we should have more insane sadistic women who like going around killing people and taking their stuff, in the interest of gender equality,"

Exactly. The discussion is one worth having (Though Dragon Age already has more equality than any other games out there). But the OP is unfortunately an advocator of extremist and hypocritical views. You ususally only find that flock on Tumblr.

[JCAP]

OP (and other supporters), if this issue really bothers you, there are great games you shouldn't play:















Yes, you have a point in some examples, but rest is just stupid.

In fact, I could say that Bioware is being sexist with the man! The most powerful characters in the DA universe are woman (maybe in Mass Effect to, if we count Asari as woman, and we have Dalatrass). And about rape and murder of womans, I really think that Bioware is saying that the woman are saints and the man are the devils, that we only want to rape and kill woman. 

Gender is a difference between us, ignoring it IS STUPID. 

Modifié par JCAP, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:04 .