342 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...



It would have had less impact if the male PC and male side of the bridal party were kidnapped and threatened with rape by Vaughan and his two male companions?

Well one of the inherent problems with writing M/M rape scenarios is that it revives an old stereotype of gays frequently being rapists. Not the intent here, but it will be brought up. What're your thoughts on that?

[fchopin]

Emzamination wrote...

Your two game examples are the type of sexist media maria is talking about.The witcher portrays women in grotesque sexual stigmas and planescape torment gives the nameless one the option to degrade and make women subservient via cruelty to get what he desires I.e: Deionarra.

I completely disagree with you, try playing the games before you start to criticize them and if you don’t like them then don’t play them.
 
If you have problems then fix them and stop trying to put the blame on other game companies.

[esper]

Vandicus wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

Would it ok if there was the threat of M/M rape in sensible contexts?


I think the argument of "realism" that the subject matter is reflective of our real world. That the rapist is typically male does lend itself to some questions of sexism. If the male rapes a female it has negative implications about straight males. If the male rapes a male it has a negative implication about gay/bi males.

In a way, rape as addressed in stories is sexist against both parties, the idea that males are the perpetrator is as inherently sexist as portraying females as the victims. Adding in M/M rapes mitigates the inherently sexist nature in regards to the female participant, while still leaving the implications of an "Always Male" villain archetype. If we add in F/M and F/F rapes, and represent them with roughly the same frequency as M/M and M/F, we avoid inherently sexist implications of any sort. It doesn't reflect the our world though. 

So the question is, what standard are we seeking to achieve? If its realism(in context meaning modeled after real world conflicts), it becomes acceptable to making rapes predominantly M/F and M/M. If its to represent rape without including sexist elements, we'd need representation of all forms of rape.

You forgot Female on male. I am pretty sure that for example having a female blood mage mind rape someone into sexually pleasing her against his will is not an good and pleasant experience for the male. And it was something that I could see happen in Tevinter and it should not be played for the lulz, but for the power abuse it is.

As for male on male, it doesn't have to be about the evil bi/gay man. Rape is also used as the ultimate tool of humiliation and proving that you have power over another persons life. It is about an abuser, abusing people.  

[Emzamination]

Dubya75 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.

I'm sorry but I think it is out of order to expect the gaming industry to bend and adjust itself around individuals' insecurities. If that makes me appear insensitive then so be it.

How can you dismiss women not wanting to be portrayed as ****s or rape victims as we've been for millenia as our insecurities?? How DARE you.

[slimgrin]

This topic...

Bioware doesn't have the most nuanced or mature approach to gender issues. Or a lot of things. But it's their story. I don't believe in asking them to change their approach to writing or to artificially strive for some impossible sense of 'equality'.

Modifié par slimgrin, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:05 .

[Vandicus]

esper wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

Would it ok if there was the threat of M/M rape in sensible contexts?


I think the argument of "realism" that the subject matter is reflective of our real world. That the rapist is typically male does lend itself to some questions of sexism. If the male rapes a female it has negative implications about straight males. If the male rapes a male it has a negative implication about gay/bi males.

In a way, rape as addressed in stories is sexist against both parties, the idea that males are the perpetrator is as inherently sexist as portraying females as the victims. Adding in M/M rapes mitigates the inherently sexist nature in regards to the female participant, while still leaving the implications of an "Always Male" villain archetype. If we add in F/M and F/F rapes, and represent them with roughly the same frequency as M/M and M/F, we avoid inherently sexist implications of any sort. It doesn't reflect the our world though. 

So the question is, what standard are we seeking to achieve? If its realism(in context meaning modeled after real world conflicts), it becomes acceptable to making rapes predominantly M/F and M/M. If its to represent rape without including sexist elements, we'd need representation of all forms of rape.

You forgot Female on male. I am pretty sure that for example having a female blood mage mind rape someone into sexually pleasing her against his will is not an good and pleasant experience for the male. And it was something that I could see happen in Tevinter and it should not be played for the lulz, but for the power abuse it is.

As for male on male, it doesn't have to be about the evil bi/gay man. Rape is also used as the ultimate tool of humiliation and proving that you have power over another persons life. It is about an abuser, abusing people.  

Did I? 

As for the male on male, I'm just saying its easy for people to take it that way. Its a touchy subject, much like "insert racial minority here" on "insert racial majority here" rape. In terms of sexual preference its very similar, because it is effectively "insert sexual minority here" on "insert sexual majority here".

[Emzamination]

fchopin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Your two game examples are the type of sexist media maria is talking about.The witcher portrays women in grotesque sexual stigmas and planescape torment gives the nameless one the option to degrade and make women subservient via cruelty to get what he desires I.e: Deionarra.

I completely disagree with you, try playing the games before you start to criticize them and if you don’t like them then don’t play them.
 
If you have problems then fix them and stop trying to put the blame on other game companies.

You disagree with what exactly?

[Sainna]

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.

I'm sorry but I think it is out of order to expect the gaming industry to bend and adjust itself around individuals' insecurities. If that makes me appear insensitive then so be it.

How can you dismiss women not wanting to be portrayed as ****s or rape victims as we've been for millenia as our insecurities?? How DARE you.

I hope that was a joke, the last part that is x)
Really, I think some of these views on what is sexist and what is not is taken a bit too far (in DA2). Some even remind me of a few, feminist nutcases in sweden who do far too much harm then good and put the good ones (people who fight for womens rights/equality) in a dark shadow as they get all the media time what sadly matters a lot *sighs*

Modifié par Sainna, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:08 .

[Terrorize69]

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.

How very sexist.

Slightly Ironic that the most sexist thing in this thread so far is aimed at males.

[syllogi]

Dirgegun wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

Interesting read, and I certainly don't think rape is needed, if this happens to be directed towards me in anyway. I tend to get paranoid and socially awkward, so... yeah...

Don't mind my fretting.

What I was saying that if there is a story to be told that involves it, that is not purely shock value or 'look at how gritty I am', then the author shouldn't be told their sexist for it. 

I'm not singling anyone out, but there are several people from the last few pages who apparently think good writing MUST have threats or acts of sexual violence against women.  That's...troubling.  I can think of only a handful of books or movies that deal with rape where it was necessary to the plot (The Handmaid's Tale, for instance, would be a completely different and far less compelling book without sexual violence against women).  In most other cases, rape or threats of rape are used almost casually against women, where male characters would not be put in the same sort of predicament, unless it's played for dark humor (see; Pulp Fiction) or beyond inhumanly cruel (see: Deliverance). Otherwise, it's almost unheard of to do the same sort of thing to male characters.

Not that I want equality in this area, necessarily, but I do wish that the writers look at things like the Women in Refrigerators trope and ask themselves if it is needed, or when writing "gendered" dialogue, please consider that threats of sexual violence are not the only way to remind us that we're playing a woman.

Modifié par syllogi, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:10 .

[fchopin]

Emzamination wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Your two game examples are the type of sexist media maria is talking about.The witcher portrays women in grotesque sexual stigmas and planescape torment gives the nameless one the option to degrade and make women subservient via cruelty to get what he desires I.e: Deionarra.

I completely disagree with you, try playing the games before you start to criticize them and if you don’t like them then don’t play them.
 
If you have problems then fix them and stop trying to put the blame on other game companies.

You disagree with what exactly?

First thing you are telling us what Maria said and i am afraid you do not speak for Maria.
Maria is not shy and can speak for herself so stop pretending to know why she made this thread.
 
You are criticising TW2 with grotesque sexual stigmas against women without showing any proof so you are basically calling me a sexist for playing the game.

[Dirgegun]

syllogi wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

Interesting read, and I certainly don't think rape is needed, if this happens to be directed towards me in anyway. I tend to get paranoid and socially awkward, so... yeah...

Don't mind my fretting.

What I was saying that if there is a story to be told that involves it, that is not purely shock value or 'look at how gritty I am', then the author shouldn't be told their sexist for it. 

I'm not singling anyone out, but there are several people from the last few pages who apparently think good writing MUST have threats or acts of sexual violence against women.  That's...troubling.  I can think of only a handful of books or movies that deal with rape where it was necessary to the plot (The Handmaid's Tale, for instance, would be a completely different and far less compelling book without sexual violence against women).  In most other cases, rape or threats of rape are used almost casually against women, where male characters would not be put in the same sort of predicament, unless it's played for dark humor (see; Pulp Fiction) or beyond inhumanly cruel (see: Deliverance). Otherwise, it's almost unheard of to do the same sort of thing to male characters.

Not that I want equality in this area, necessarily, but I do wish that the writers look at things like the Women in Refrigerators trope and ask themselves if it is needed, or when writing "gendered" dialogue, please consider that threats of sexual violence are not the only way to remind us that we're playing a woman.

True. True. And that's really all I can say, to show that I agree with you. You're very eloquent.

(And this is completely off topic, but I find your icon oddly hypnotising.)

[Dubya75]

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.

I'm sorry but I think it is out of order to expect the gaming industry to bend and adjust itself around individuals' insecurities. If that makes me appear insensitive then so be it.

How can you dismiss women not wanting to be portrayed as ****s or rape victims as we've been for millenia as our insecurities?? How DARE you.

I dare because I am not afraid or offended by men being portrayed in the worst possible way (and they are in the gaming industry!). I don't take it personally. No-one should take something like that so personally, and if you do then you clearly have issues that need to be addressed. By a professional, not a game designer.

Modifié par Dubya75, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:17 .

[esper]

Vandicus wrote...

esper wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

Would it ok if there was the threat of M/M rape in sensible contexts?


I think the argument of "realism" that the subject matter is reflective of our real world. That the rapist is typically male does lend itself to some questions of sexism. If the male rapes a female it has negative implications about straight males. If the male rapes a male it has a negative implication about gay/bi males.

In a way, rape as addressed in stories is sexist against both parties, the idea that males are the perpetrator is as inherently sexist as portraying females as the victims. Adding in M/M rapes mitigates the inherently sexist nature in regards to the female participant, while still leaving the implications of an "Always Male" villain archetype. If we add in F/M and F/F rapes, and represent them with roughly the same frequency as M/M and M/F, we avoid inherently sexist implications of any sort. It doesn't reflect the our world though. 

So the question is, what standard are we seeking to achieve? If its realism(in context meaning modeled after real world conflicts), it becomes acceptable to making rapes predominantly M/F and M/M. If its to represent rape without including sexist elements, we'd need representation of all forms of rape.

You forgot Female on male. I am pretty sure that for example having a female blood mage mind rape someone into sexually pleasing her against his will is not an good and pleasant experience for the male. And it was something that I could see happen in Tevinter and it should not be played for the lulz, but for the power abuse it is.

As for male on male, it doesn't have to be about the evil bi/gay man. Rape is also used as the ultimate tool of humiliation and proving that you have power over another persons life. It is about an abuser, abusing people.  

Did I? 

As for the male on male, I'm just saying its easy for people to take it that way. Its a touchy subject, much like "insert racial minority here" on "insert racial majority here" rape. In terms of sexual preference its very similar, because it is effectively "insert sexual minority here" on "insert sexual majority here".

:?Sorry. That was my mistake, I read way too fast. (Takes a step back and takes a deep breath)

I agree that male on male might be touchy, but it can be done right. In fact we do have a 'light' (well hidden) case off it in da2 with Allan. Allan is definitly/truely a victim in every sense of the word, and you get the sense that Kerras (and who ever else in Kirkwall) didn't abuse Allan just because they were male, but because they had the power to do so. 

To be fair bioware is not a bad compeny with this. And most of the pattern the op pointed out I think is due to subcounsious pattern we all have driven into our skulls most of our life qwhen it comes to stories. But since Thedas is so close to be matriachal and not patriatrichal I would just like bioware to tip the scale on its head with this pattern.

[Joy Divison]

I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.

Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?

[Dubya75]

Joy Divison wrote...

I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.

Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?

No. None at all.

[esper]

Joy Divison wrote...

I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.

Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?

Ella is the most obvious one and unfortunately outshines Allan who doesn't get threaten on screen.

There are also Leandra. Implicit. The man was reasembling his death wife. Think the implications over.

Modifié par esper, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:21 .

[Terrorize69]

Joy Divison wrote...

I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.

Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?

There is one instance, but its not confirmed if its against women, but this is sexual violence against men... those male Templars who have demons forced into them by female blood mages. Blood and Desire.

But I guess that one slips a lot of peoples minds. Cause males being the victims of sexual violence its okay apprenatly [/sarcasm]

Modifié par Terrorize69, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:23 .

[Harle Cerulean]

fchopin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Your two game examples are the type of sexist media maria is talking about.The witcher portrays women in grotesque sexual stigmas and planescape torment gives the nameless one the option to degrade and make women subservient via cruelty to get what he desires I.e: Deionarra.

I completely disagree with you, try playing the games before you start to criticize them and if you don’t like them then don’t play them.
 
If you have problems then fix them and stop trying to put the blame on other game companies.

You disagree with what exactly?

First thing you are telling us what Maria said and i am afraid you do not speak for Maria.
Maria is not shy and can speak for herself so stop pretending to know why she made this thread.
 
You are criticising TW2 with grotesque sexual stigmas against women without showing any proof so you are basically calling me a sexist for playing the game.

Okay, I'm not going to touch the rest, because it's Emz, and that's not a mess I'm getting into, but the italicized is false, and leads to a lot of the defensive attitudes in threads like this.

Saying something has sexist content and themes is not the same as calling someone who enjoys that work sexist.  If you're unaware of those themes, you may be accepting of casual sexism in society ('conquest cards' for having sex with women, turning sleeping with many women into a game, and utterly objectifying the women involved; they're no longer women, they're trophies, is an example that was already used once in this thread, in case you missed it).  That doesn't make you sexist, or at least, not moreso than anyone else in society.  It means you're inured to it, because that sort of thing is rife in media.  And if you are aware of the sexism of the themes, and acknowledge they're problematic, and enjoy the work anyway, that doesn't make you sexist, it means you enjoy the work for other things while admitting its faults.

However, being inured to these sexist themes doesn't mean that's when they're pointed out, you need to defend them.  It's not an attack on you, and it's not saying that something you enjoyed is the worst thing ever.  It's pointing out a flaw.

[Darth Death]

syllogi wrote...

I'm not singling anyone out, but there are several people from the last few pages who apparently think good writing MUST have threats or acts of sexual violence against women.  That's...troubling.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. What was meant is realism. Sexism, racism, or what have you will unfortunately, always exist because people exist. Also you have to take into consideration DA is supposedly a dark fantasy title, meaning mature content. If people are uncomfortable by this particular genre, then perhaps those people shouldn't follow through participating in such activities. Dark fantasy isn't meant for everyone.   

[esper]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.

Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?

There is one instance, but its not confirmed if its against women, but this is sexual violence against men... those male Templars who have demons forced into them by female blood mages. Blood and Desire.

Actually that was another sad trope that is often used. Sex makes men stupid and easy for women to manipulate. They got 'captured' because they visited a brothel. They wasn't forced to visit a brothel.

Modifié par esper, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:26 .

[Joy Divison]

esper wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.

Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?

Ella is the most obvious one and unfortunately outshines Allan who doesn't get threaten on screen.

There are also Leandra. Implicit. The man was reasembling his death wife. Think the implications over.

I just remembered her.  I think you mean Alain.  He was easy to forget.  I agree Alain's ordeal should have been made more explicit.

[syllogi]

Vandicus wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

Would it ok if there was the threat of M/M rape in sensible contexts?

I think the argument of "realism"  is that the subject matter is reflective of our real world. That the rapist is typically male does lend itself to some questions of sexism. If the male rapes a female it has negative implications about straight males. If the male rapes a male it has a negative implication about gay/bi males.

In a way, rape as addressed in stories is sexist against both parties, the idea that males are the perpetrator is as inherently sexist as portraying females as the victims. Adding in M/M rapes mitigates the inherently sexist nature in regards to the female participant, while still leaving the implications of an "Always Male" villain archetype. If we add in F/M and F/F rapes, and represent them with roughly the same frequency as M/M and M/F, we avoid inherently sexist implications of any sort. It doesn't reflect the our world though. 

So the question is, what standard are we seeking to achieve? If its realism(in context meaning modeled after real world conflicts), it becomes acceptable to making rapes predominantly M/F and M/M. If its to represent rape without including sexist elements, we'd need representation of all forms of rape.

I personally think that sexual violence against women is treated WAY too lightly in fiction, so no, I don't think it would make things "better" to portray men as victims in the same kind of scenarios.  Mostly because it is considered far more shocking and taboo, so that it would either be made into a joke by the viewer, or seen as grotesque. 

Look at the reactions to Anders flirting with a male character in their first meeting, without invitation.  You would think that Anders had killed all these player's puppies, by how they reacted to being forced to turn down a male character making advances on them.  But if it were a female only dialogue, and people complained about it on the forum, most posters would be outraged by the idea that a female Hawke should not be "subjected" to Anders' flirting.  The difference in perspective is so huge for a reason.

Modifié par syllogi, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:25 .

[Dirgegun]

Dubya75 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.

I'm sorry but I think it is out of order to expect the gaming industry to bend and adjust itself around individuals' insecurities. If that makes me appear insensitive then so be it.

How can you dismiss women not wanting to be portrayed as ****s or rape victims as we've been for millenia as our insecurities?? How DARE you.

I dare because I am not afraid or offended by men being portrayed in the worst possible way. I don't take it personally. No-one should take something like that so personally, and if you do then you clearly have issues that need to be addressed. By a professional, not a game designer.

To be fair, though, men can generally walk down a street without the worry that the teen douchebags watching them across the way might try and corner them. Women have to live with a very real undercurrent of worry that men aren't normally presented with. It doesn't help that media, at times, only presents women as being objects of a sexual nature. To write that off as insecurity, without having to live with that, is rather ignorant and thoughtless... :/

Saying that, there are ways the media demonises men that shouldn't be brushed aside, either. Fathers, for instance, have trouble showing affection towards their children, particularly girls, without the worry that some people, because of what the media has done, will see them as a predator and child abuser.

[Emzamination]

fchopin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Your two game examples are the type of sexist media maria is talking about.The witcher portrays women in grotesque sexual stigmas and planescape torment gives the nameless one the option to degrade and make women subservient via cruelty to get what he desires I.e: Deionarra.

I completely disagree with you, try playing the games before you start to criticize them and if you don’t like them then don’t play them.
 
If you have problems then fix them and stop trying to put the blame on other game companies.

You disagree with what exactly?

First thing you are telling us what Maria said and i am afraid you do not speak for Maria.
Maria is not shy and can speak for herself so stop pretending to know why she made this thread.
 
You are criticising TW2 with grotesque sexual stigmas against women without showing any proof so you are basically calling me a sexist for playing the game.

@Bolded : I've never spoken for maria or claimed to. I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

@ unbolded : I'm sure you can look up the witcher's scenes in which women ***** themselves as geralt's conquest yourself as they're Nsfw.