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esper wrote...
Actually that was another sad trope that is often used. Sex makes men stupid and easy for women to manipulate.
Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:29 .
Joy Divison wrote...
esper wrote...
Joy Divison wrote...
I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.
Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?
Ella is the most obvious one and unfortunately outshines Allan who doesn't get threaten on screen.
There are also Leandra. Implicit. The man was reasembling his death wife. Think the implications over.
I just remembered her. I think you mean Alain. He was easy to forget. I agree Alain's ordeal should have been made more explicit.
syllogi wrote...
Not that I want equality in this area, necessarily, but I do wish that the writers look at things like the Women in Refrigerators trope and ask themselves if it is needed, or when writing "gendered" dialogue, please consider that threats of sexual violence are not the only way to remind us that we're playing a woman.
Modifié par slimgrin, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:29 .
Modifié par Wulfram, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:37 .
Harle Cerulean wrote...
Saying something has sexist content and themes is not the same as calling someone who enjoys that work sexist. If you're unaware of those themes, you may be accepting of casual sexism in society ('conquest cards' for having sex with women, turning sleeping with many women into a game, and utterly objectifying the women involved; they're no longer women, they're trophies, is an example that was already used once in this thread, in case you missed it). That doesn't make you sexist, or at least, not moreso than anyone else in society. It means you're inured to it, because that sort of thing is rife in media. And if you are aware of the sexism of the themes, and acknowledge they're problematic, and enjoy the work anyway, that doesn't make you sexist, it means you enjoy the work for other things while admitting its faults.
However, being inured to these sexist themes doesn't mean that's when they're pointed out, you need to defend them. It's not an attack on you, and it's not saying that something you enjoyed is the worst thing ever. It's pointing out a flaw.
Dubya75 wrote...
Joy Divison wrote...
I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.
Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?
No. None at all.
Maria Caliban wrote...
First, an overview of previous games…
Unique Women Centric Content!:
Being sexually propositioned by a drunken, unattractive man who starts the conversation by ridiculing you.
Having your sex insulted by a pirate and drug lord.
Being able to solve a quest by sleeping with an elf that looks like this.
Meeting a man you've previously had a relationship with and learning he now has a new wife and has moved on.
Being hit on by a drunken virgin who looks like this.
Being threatened with rape.
Unique Man Centric Content!:
Having a threesome.
Later return to your homeland and make sure your child get his birthright.
Asking an attractive barmaid for a kiss.
Being able to solve a quest by sleeping with an elf that looks like this.
Saving your wife from being raped.
I know topics like this tend to prompt a defensive reaction, so I'm doing to start by saying that I don't think BioWare's writers are sexist, evil woman haters who hate women and want female specific content to suck. Moreover, while this thread is to discourage what I dislike, that’s not the same as saying it should never happen.
Moving on: There are some trends though that suggest women-specific content tends to be less desirable than men-specific content. I've purposely avoided any discussion of companion romances above. (That wasn't a Jacob reference at the beginning.) I think doing so is mostly pointless since you can't say 'Morrigan is a better romance than Alistar' or 'Tali is a better romance than Garrus.' I would ask that conversations about romancable companions or the number of romances straight women PCs get instead of straight men PCs stay out of the thread.
Problem: Why are you so ugly? -
I’m going to start with something shallow. NPC dudes who hit on female PCs tend to be ugly. NPC women who hit on male PCs tend to be good looking. Don’t tell me people have different standards of beauty, I already know that. It’s obvious that not only were the men above made to be unattractive, they are also supposed to be pathetic. Cammen is a whinny virgin who’s ****s dropped yesterday. Emile a desperate virgin who uses cheesy pick-up lines.
These scenes are not made in order for the female PC to feel sexy or charming. They’re jokes.
Alternatively, being a noble and having two women invite you in for a threesome? That’s pimpin. Gheyna is shown as a sexual conquest. When the Redcliffe barmaid kisses you, the men in the bar sit and stare. Why do they stare just because she’s giving you a kiss? So the player knows Bella is desirable and these other men are envious of the PC.
What I’d like to see instead:
If there’s male-specific content where attractive women (or men) hit on the PC and the game makes them feel ‘cool’ or ‘badass’ for having sex. Let there be female-specific content where attractive men (or women) hit on the PC and the game makes them feel ‘cool’ or ‘badass’ for having sex.
Notice, that an interaction where a female PC uses her flirty, womanly ways to get something she wants probably won’t qualify, though it’s better than nothing.
Problem: Sexual harassment is for Women –
This is not so much a BioWare problem as it is a Mass Effect problem, but I’ll mention it. I’m not fond of a guy showing he’s a bastard by making snide remarks about the PC being a woman or just being skeevy toward a female PC. Other women might find it cathartic to punch men like that out or insult them, but generally I see it as a reminder that even in fantasy land, one gender is seen as less than another.
Problem: The Violation of Women -
This could probably be its own thread, but since we’re all here.
Ridley Scott once said that one of the reasons he was interested in Aliens is that it turned the current slasher movie model on its head in that instead of us seeing young women being the victims of these bizarre and horrific acts, you mostly had male victims. IIRC, he specifically talked about symbolic male rape and literal male impregnation.
This is where you tell me “but the broodmother was awesome!” The broodmother was awesome. It was also an extended sequence where a woman narrates how she and other women gangraped, force fed dwarven flesh, and turned into bloated monstrosities whose entire purpose is to pop out babies.
This is where you tell me “but Mama Hawke’s death was touching!” It was touching. It was also an extended sequence (and series of quests) built around a man murdering and mutilating a group of women that ends with you mother being transformed into a necromantic horror.
This is where you tell me “but the City Elf origin showed how oppress the elves are!” And it did that. It also hinges on women, and only women, being rounded up like cattle so men can rape and/or murder them. That the PC can heroically stop this doesn’t change that this is gendered violence.
You even have this duality with Meredith and Orsino. Orsino’s transformation, while grotesque, is an expression of his choice and his power. Meredith never wanted to transform into a statue, and her transformation is tied into a lack of control.
In Return to Ostigar, we come upon King Cailan’s body. We have crucifixion, which suggests a noble martyrdom, and the game treats his dead body with reverence.
In my mind, there is a difference in how women’s bodies and men’s bodies are treated in the Dragon Age series. It makes me uneasy. Women’s bodies are the default for violation, especially sexual violation. And in both games now we’ve had long, unavoidable sections where we are given all the grisly details on how they were horrifically killed and altered.
Again, I’m not accusing anyone of being bad or ruining the game. These are well done and I understand why these choices are made.
At the same time, I would rather not see all of this in the next game.
fchopin wrote...
Harle Cerulean wrote...
Saying something has sexist content and themes is not the same as calling someone who enjoys that work sexist. If you're unaware of those themes, you may be accepting of casual sexism in society ('conquest cards' for having sex with women, turning sleeping with many women into a game, and utterly objectifying the women involved; they're no longer women, they're trophies, is an example that was already used once in this thread, in case you missed it). That doesn't make you sexist, or at least, not moreso than anyone else in society. It means you're inured to it, because that sort of thing is rife in media. And if you are aware of the sexism of the themes, and acknowledge they're problematic, and enjoy the work anyway, that doesn't make you sexist, it means you enjoy the work for other things while admitting its faults.
However, being inured to these sexist themes doesn't mean that's when they're pointed out, you need to defend them. It's not an attack on you, and it's not saying that something you enjoyed is the worst thing ever. It's pointing out a flaw.
We don’t only get cards for women in the game we also get cards for all the creatures, plants and other things, just because we get cards for women we have sex with does not mean it is degrading women. That is how the game is made and everything in the game gets a card if i remember correctly.
I don’t think CDPR started with we will make sex objects but started to portray a realistic story of the witcher and probably made a mistake with the cards but have changed this in TW2.
If the game was made differently than it would not be realistic and would have got a big stick from me. I want Bioware to be grittier with both genders and not less.
I have never watched anything on television that does not objectify something even in simple commercials and a game will never be made that is not the same.
syllogi wrote...
Dubya75 wrote...
Joy Divison wrote...
I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.
Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?
No. None at all.
Quentin is recreating his dead wife with the body parts of other women. Do you think that he just wants to have tea with his zombie bride once she's put together? His intent, beyond murder and desecration, is absolutely sexual violence.
Alrik makes a very strong suggestion that he rapes Tranquils, and that he will do the same to Ella when she is made Tranquil, during Dissent.
Kelder, the son of the Magistrate, who kills elven children because they're beautiful, has recently kidnapped a female elven child. It is at least inferred that he is attracted to her in an unwholesome way.
There are probably a few more, less obvious examples, but those are just off the top of my head.
Modifié par The Hierophant, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:45 .
Harle Cerulean wrote...
fchopin wrote...
Harle Cerulean wrote...
Saying something has sexist content and themes is not the same as calling someone who enjoys that work sexist. If you're unaware of those themes, you may be accepting of casual sexism in society ('conquest cards' for having sex with women, turning sleeping with many women into a game, and utterly objectifying the women involved; they're no longer women, they're trophies, is an example that was already used once in this thread, in case you missed it). That doesn't make you sexist, or at least, not moreso than anyone else in society. It means you're inured to it, because that sort of thing is rife in media. And if you are aware of the sexism of the themes, and acknowledge they're problematic, and enjoy the work anyway, that doesn't make you sexist, it means you enjoy the work for other things while admitting its faults.
However, being inured to these sexist themes doesn't mean that's when they're pointed out, you need to defend them. It's not an attack on you, and it's not saying that something you enjoyed is the worst thing ever. It's pointing out a flaw.
We don’t only get cards for women in the game we also get cards for all the creatures, plants and other things, just because we get cards for women we have sex with does not mean it is degrading women. That is how the game is made and everything in the game gets a card if i remember correctly.
I don’t think CDPR started with we will make sex objects but started to portray a realistic story of the witcher and probably made a mistake with the cards but have changed this in TW2.
If the game was made differently than it would not be realistic and would have got a big stick from me. I want Bioware to be grittier with both genders and not less.
I have never watched anything on television that does not objectify something even in simple commercials and a game will never be made that is not the same.
Do you not see an issue with what you just wrote there?
The Hierophant wrote...
But they are depraved, sociopathic, schizo people, and they are not written in an idealistic or comedic manner.syllogi wrote...
Dubya75 wrote...
Joy Divison wrote...
I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.
Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?
No. None at all.
Quentin is recreating his dead wife with the body parts of other women. Do you think that he just wants to have tea with his zombie bride once she's put together? His intent, beyond murder and desecration, is absolutely sexual violence.
Alrik makes a very strong suggestion that he rapes Tranquils, and that he will do the same to Ella when she is made Tranquil, during Dissent.
Kelder, the son of the Magistrate, who kills elven children because they're beautiful, has recently kidnapped a female elven child. It is at least inferred that he is attracted to her in an unwholesome way.
There are probably a few more, less obvious examples, but those are just off the top of my head.
Modifié par syllogi, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:48 .
fchopin wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
Your two game examples are the type of sexist media maria is talking about.The witcher portrays women in grotesque sexual stigmas and planescape torment gives the nameless one the option to degrade and make women subservient via cruelty to get what he desires I.e: Deionarra.
I completely disagree with you, try playing the games before you start to criticize them and if you don’t like them then don’t play them.
If you have problems then fix them and stop trying to put the blame on other game companies.
Nah it was reading comprehension fail on my part and edited my post as i misread the quotes.syllogi wrote...
The Hierophant wrote...
But they are depraved, sociopathic, schizo people, and they are not written in an idealistic or comedic manner.syllogi wrote...
Dubya75 wrote...
Joy Divison wrote...
I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.
Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?
No. None at all.
Quentin is recreating his dead wife with the body parts of other women. Do you think that he just wants to have tea with his zombie bride once she's put together? His intent, beyond murder and desecration, is absolutely sexual violence.
Alrik makes a very strong suggestion that he rapes Tranquils, and that he will do the same to Ella when she is made Tranquil, during Dissent.
Kelder, the son of the Magistrate, who kills elven children because they're beautiful, has recently kidnapped a female elven child. It is at least inferred that he is attracted to her in an unwholesome way.
There are probably a few more, less obvious examples, but those are just off the top of my head.
Of course, but I'm simply disputing the claim that there are no instances of threats, or inferred sexual violence against women in DA2. I'm not saying they're either good writing or bad, but they do exist. The fact that Dubya75 couldn't even remember them, however, speaks to how socialized we are to think of threats or implied rape (when perpetrated against women) as "normal" violence, while Anders flirting with a man, for instance, is probably far more memorable to most of the people in this thread as a "violation."
syllogi wrote...
Vandicus wrote...
syllogi wrote...
Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html
It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.
Just something to think about.
Would it ok if there was the threat of M/M rape in sensible contexts?
I think the argument of "realism" is that the subject matter is reflective of our real world. That the rapist is typically male does lend itself to some questions of sexism. If the male rapes a female it has negative implications about straight males. If the male rapes a male it has a negative implication about gay/bi males.
In a way, rape as addressed in stories is sexist against both parties, the idea that males are the perpetrator is as inherently sexist as portraying females as the victims. Adding in M/M rapes mitigates the inherently sexist nature in regards to the female participant, while still leaving the implications of an "Always Male" villain archetype. If we add in F/M and F/F rapes, and represent them with roughly the same frequency as M/M and M/F, we avoid inherently sexist implications of any sort. It doesn't reflect the our world though.
So the question is, what standard are we seeking to achieve? If its realism(in context meaning modeled after real world conflicts), it becomes acceptable to making rapes predominantly M/F and M/M. If its to represent rape without including sexist elements, we'd need representation of all forms of rape.
I personally think that sexual violence against women is treated WAY too lightly in fiction, so no, I don't think it would make things "better" to portray men as victims in the same kind of scenarios. Mostly because it is considered far more shocking and taboo, so that it would either be made into a joke by the viewer, or seen as grotesque.
Look at the reactions to Anders flirting with a male character in their first meeting, without invitation. You would think that Anders had killed all these player's puppies, by how they reacted to being forced to turn down a male character making advances on them. But if it were a female only dialogue, and people complained about it on the forum, most posters would be outraged by the idea that a female Hawke should not be "subjected" to Anders' flirting. The difference in perspective is so huge for a reason.
Aolbain wrote...
fchopin wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
Your two game examples are the type of sexist media maria is talking about.The witcher portrays women in grotesque sexual stigmas and planescape torment gives the nameless one the option to degrade and make women subservient via cruelty to get what he desires I.e: Deionarra.
I completely disagree with you, try playing the games before you start to criticize them and if you don’t like them then don’t play them.
If you have problems then fix them and stop trying to put the blame on other game companies.
As somenone who has played both witcher games like 3 times each I have to say that I agree with Emzamination.
The witchers view on women and equality issues is imature and childish at best and horrifingly sexist at worst. It got beter in TW2. Beter, not good.
Dirgegun wrote...
Dubya75 wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
Dubya75 wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
Dubya75 wrote...
No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.
How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.
I'm sorry but I think it is out of order to expect the gaming industry to bend and adjust itself around individuals' insecurities. If that makes me appear insensitive then so be it.
How can you dismiss women not wanting to be portrayed as ****s or rape victims as we've been for millenia as our insecurities?? How DARE you.
I dare because I am not afraid or offended by men being portrayed in the worst possible way. I don't take it personally. No-one should take something like that so personally, and if you do then you clearly have issues that need to be addressed. By a professional, not a game designer.
To be fair, though, men can generally walk down a street without the worry that the teen douchebags watching them across the way might try and corner them. Women have to live with a very real undercurrent of worry that men aren't normally presented with. It doesn't help that media, at times, only presents women as being objects of a sexual nature. To write that off as insecurity, without having to live with that, is rather ignorant and thoughtless... :/
Saying that, there are ways the media demonises men that shouldn't be brushed aside, either. Fathers, for instance, have trouble showing affection towards their children, particularly girls, without the worry that some people, because of what the media has done, will see them as a predator and child abuser.
Modifié par Dubya75, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:53 .
Harle Cerulean wrote...
Do you not see an issue with what you just wrote there?
Sainna wrote...
Aolbain wrote...
fchopin wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
Your two game examples are the type of sexist media maria is talking about.The witcher portrays women in grotesque sexual stigmas and planescape torment gives the nameless one the option to degrade and make women subservient via cruelty to get what he desires I.e: Deionarra.
I completely disagree with you, try playing the games before you start to criticize them and if you don’t like them then don’t play them.
If you have problems then fix them and stop trying to put the blame on other game companies.
As somenone who has played both witcher games like 3 times each I have to say that I agree with Emzamination.
The witchers view on women and equality issues is imature and childish at best and horrifingly sexist at worst. It got beter in TW2. Beter, not good.
The Witcher never ever attempted to claim that men and women are equal? Women almost never are in fantasy settings like that.
syllogi wrote...
Dubya75 wrote...
Joy Divison wrote...
I'm not asking to mark my disagreement. I genuinely don't remember.
Were there instances in Dragon Age 2 that had sexual violence (perpetrated or threatened) against women?
No. None at all.
Quentin is recreating his dead wife with the body parts of other women. Do you think that he just wants to have tea with his zombie bride once she's put together? His intent, beyond murder and desecration, is absolutely sexual violence.
Alrik makes a very strong suggestion that he rapes Tranquils, and that he will do the same to Ella when she is made Tranquil, during Dissent.
Kelder, the son of the Magistrate, who kills elven children because they're beautiful, has recently kidnapped a female elven child. It is at least inferred that he is attracted to her in an unwholesome way.
There are probably a few more, less obvious examples, but those are just off the top of my head.
Aolbain wrote...
As somenone who has played both witcher games like 3 times each I have to say that I agree with Emzamination.
The witchers view on women and equality issues is imature and childish at best and horrifingly sexist at worst. It got beter in TW2. Beter, not good.
Palidane wrote...
So what I'm getting from this thread is that we need more psycho rapist serial killer girls to balance all the psycho rapist serial killer boys. Right?
I'm perfectly okay with that. It's about time we broke down the male monopoly on psychos.
I'd like to expand on this; it's a game. The thing that has been running through my head since opening this topic is that it's totally ignored that the female PC gets to break every one of these stereotypical situations that come up. It's funny, people want to play different races, and want that choice to be reflected, but they have to leave the gender alone? Sorry, but that seems rather hypocritical to me. Racism is every bit as much a social taboo, in most areas, as sexism. I guess my question is, if the OP isn't calling for this to be removed, but considered, exactly what is it the OP expects them to do?Mims wrote...
As a woman, I both agree and disagree. On one hand, this is a game, you shouldn't have to sit through sexist comments on your down time. But on the other hand, some characters are just sexist. Some themes do explore gender issues or gender fears.
But I totally, totally agree there needs to be more equality. Sexist remarks and rape should not be treated as shock value. It shouldn't be exploitative.
I personally found the broodmother and city elf starting area to be rather chilling. I didn't feel it was being overly exploitative. The broodmother plays on both male and female fears, and provides a somewhat reasonable explanation as to why there are fewer women in the grey wardens.
To me, the city elves were all being equally oppressed. Men were forced to endure the degradation of the nobles, and were largely just losing hope. The PC elf and his/her cousins were a rarity in the town.
Now. That said. I DO consider offhanded remarks of rape to be exploitative. In the same starting area, I thought it was a bit meh to have the girl elf basically go, "woe is me I am going to be raped if someone doesn't give me some money". I also didn't feel the backstory of the elf in one of the books needed the sex slave aspect to it. When something feels tacked on, its hard to shake.
Basically, I feel this: if rape is to be addressed, it needs to be given a reason why. It shouldn't just be treated as something that makes the story "more real." Or plays on men/women's desire to protect women.
Dubya75 wrote...
Dirgegun wrote...
Dubya75 wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
Dubya75 wrote...
Emzamination wrote...
Dubya75 wrote...
No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.
How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.
I'm sorry but I think it is out of order to expect the gaming industry to bend and adjust itself around individuals' insecurities. If that makes me appear insensitive then so be it.
How can you dismiss women not wanting to be portrayed as ****s or rape victims as we've been for millenia as our insecurities?? How DARE you.
I dare because I am not afraid or offended by men being portrayed in the worst possible way. I don't take it personally. No-one should take something like that so personally, and if you do then you clearly have issues that need to be addressed. By a professional, not a game designer.
To be fair, though, men can generally walk down a street without the worry that the teen douchebags watching them across the way might try and corner them. Women have to live with a very real undercurrent of worry that men aren't normally presented with. It doesn't help that media, at times, only presents women as being objects of a sexual nature. To write that off as insecurity, without having to live with that, is rather ignorant and thoughtless... :/
Saying that, there are ways the media demonises men that shouldn't be brushed aside, either. Fathers, for instance, have trouble showing affection towards their children, particularly girls, without the worry that some people, because of what the media has done, will see them as a predator and child abuser.
And you REALLY think the world is going to be a better place for women (and men alike) if we stop portraying the reality of the world we live in, in media such as games? Now THAT would be ignorant! No, not ignorant. Naive!
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