342 réponses à ce sujet

[Sainna]

Aolbain wrote...

Sainna wrote...

Aolbain wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Your two game examples are the type of sexist media maria is talking about.The witcher portrays women in grotesque sexual stigmas and planescape torment gives the nameless one the option to degrade and make women subservient via cruelty to get what he desires I.e: Deionarra.

I completely disagree with you, try playing the games before you start to criticize them and if you don’t like them then don’t play them.
 
If you have problems then fix them and stop trying to put the blame on other game companies.

As somenone who has played both witcher games like 3 times each I have to say that I agree with Emzamination.
The witchers view on women and equality issues is imature and childish at best and horrifingly sexist at worst. It got beter in TW2. Beter, not good.

The Witcher never ever attempted to claim that men and women are equal? Women almost never are in fantasy settings like that.

So we should give CD Project points for not even trying? I love the setting they use but too bad that EVERY woman Geralt meet is so oversexualised that its not eaven funny anymore.

No, we should give them points not despretly trying to make a setting/world where everything and everyone is equal. Granted, I can agree that oversexualisation is bad but some people here are making all of this...ugh, they are making me fear that one day we will have a game where
<Npc to charecter> : Ah, you stupid wench I will smack you! But please note I would also smack you if you where a man and your gender has nothing to do with this, thank you.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Dubya75 wrote...

And you REALLY think the world is going to be a better place for women (and men alike) if we stop portraying the reality of the world we live in, in media such as games? Now THAT would be ignorant! No, not ignorant. Naive!

Oooor we could strive to make things like video games a more friendly environment for everyone instead of maintaining the status quo.  It's all easy for you to say this because you don't have to live in fear of being treated as an object.

[Aolbain]

fchopin wrote...

Aolbain wrote...

As somenone who has played both witcher games like 3 times each I have to say that I agree with Emzamination.
The witchers view on women and equality issues is imature and childish at best and horrifingly sexist at worst. It got beter in TW2. Beter, not good.

If you found them degrading then why did you play them 3 times each?

Because they are still awesome games (ok, just TW2, the first one was just good). I dont stop reading/watching/playing just because I dislike one aspect of it.

Modifié par Aolbain, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:03 .

[Emzamination]

Dubya75 wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

To be fair, though, men can generally walk down a street without the worry that the teen douchebags watching them across the way might try and corner them. Women have to live with a very real undercurrent of worry that men aren't normally presented with. It doesn't help that media, at times, only presents women as being objects of a sexual nature. To write that off as insecurity, without having to live with that, is rather ignorant and thoughtless... :/

Saying that, there are ways the media demonises men that shouldn't be brushed aside, either. Fathers, for instance, have trouble showing affection towards their children, particularly girls, without the worry that some people, because of what the media has done, will see them as a predator and child abuser.

And you REALLY think the world is going to be a better place for women (and men alike) if we stop portraying the reality of the world we live in, in media such as games? Now THAT would be ignorant! No, not ignorant. Naive!

No, of course not but the fantasy world I'm playing in sure can be. The horrific injustices of reality need not be portrayed in Fantasy.

[Bfler]

Aolbain wrote...

So we should give CD Project points for not even trying? I love the setting they use but too bad that EVERY woman Geralt meet is so oversexualised that its not eaven funny anymore.

They adapt the world described in the novels.  They can't change it to DA style in the games, because that's not how women are portrayed in the books of Sapkowski.

Modifié par Bfler, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:03 .

[Sejborg]

syllogi wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Here's a very interesting blog post from an author who was asked *when* (not if!) her female characters were going to be raped: http://seanan-mcguir...com/470626.html

It's relevant not so much because I think the writers need to see it, but some people in this thread apparently have the same sort of expectation as the person who asked that question; that if female characters are present in fiction, the threat of rape is ever present, and it's not "realistic" to not threaten these women with sexual violence.

Just something to think about.

Interesting read, and I certainly don't think rape is needed, if this happens to be directed towards me in anyway. I tend to get paranoid and socially awkward, so... yeah...

Don't mind my fretting.

What I was saying that if there is a story to be told that involves it, that is not purely shock value or 'look at how gritty I am', then the author shouldn't be told their sexist for it. 

I'm not singling anyone out, but there are several people from the last few pages who apparently think good writing MUST have threats or acts of sexual violence against women.  That's...troubling.  I can think of only a handful of books or movies that deal with rape where it was necessary to the plot (The Handmaid's Tale, for instance, would be a completely different and far less compelling book without sexual violence against women).  In most other cases, rape or threats of rape are used almost casually against women, where male characters would not be put in the same sort of predicament, unless it's played for dark humor (see; Pulp Fiction) or beyond inhumanly cruel (see: Deliverance). Otherwise, it's almost unheard of to do the same sort of thing to male characters.

Not that I want equality in this area, necessarily, but I do wish that the writers look at things like the Women in Refrigerators trope and ask themselves if it is needed, or when writing "gendered" dialogue, please consider that threats of sexual violence are not the only way to remind us that we're playing a woman.

Just out of curiosity. What movies are you talking about that have a rape happen that wasn't necessary to the story? 

Of the top of my head I can actually only think of movies where the rape is necessary to the story.
Deliverance, American History X, Irreversible, A Serbian Film, The Accused, I Spit on Your Grave, The Hills Have Eyes, Deadgirl, Sleepers, Cape Fear, Leaving Las Vegas, Se7en, A Time to Kill, The Celebration and Boys Don't Cry.

But perhaps you are right, and I can't think of any movies where there is a rape, simply because it isn't necesary to the story. 

[Mclouvins]

Aolbain wrote...

So we should give CD Project points for not even trying? I love the setting they use but too bad that EVERY woman Geralt meet is so oversexualised that its not eaven funny anymore.

In all fairness that is more a critique of the original author and not CD Project. That's not to say that they haven't been a bit out there, the recent concept art release for their new cyberpunk game was certainly pushing it and no doubt made some people uncomfortable and I think they did something with digital shots of Triss in the Polish version of playboy magazine or something similar before the game's release.

[Vandicus]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

And you REALLY think the world is going to be a better place for women (and men alike) if we stop portraying the reality of the world we live in, in media such as games? Now THAT would be ignorant! No, not ignorant. Naive!

Oooor we could strive to make things like video games a more friendly environment for everyone instead of maintaining the status quo.  It's all easy for you to say this because you don't have to live in fear of being treated as an object.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "treated as an object"? Is that supposed to refer to rape, or merely being lusted after? Or is this more a thing about media portrayal?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Vandicus wrote...

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "treated as an object"? Is that supposed to refer to rape, or merely being lusted after? Or is this more a thing about media portrayal?

Being told that you can't walk alone anywhere, told that men are only after one thing, then certain members of your being dolled up and photoshopped then paraded around in the media like a proverbial carrot, yes. 

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:08 .

[Dubya75]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

And you REALLY think the world is going to be a better place for women (and men alike) if we stop portraying the reality of the world we live in, in media such as games? Now THAT would be ignorant! No, not ignorant. Naive!

Oooor we could strive to make things like video games a more friendly environment for everyone instead of maintaining the status quo.  It's all easy for you to say this because you don't have to live in fear of being treated as an object.

Forgive me if I'm coming accross as ignorant or flippant, but how on God's Green Earth does portraying sexual violence in a game change ANYTHING for women in real life???
What next, someone that don't like blood and violence is going to insist we stop making violent games altogether? Or someone that's been in a car accident insist we stop making racing games? 
Really?

Modifié par Dubya75, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:09 .

[Aolbain]

Bfler wrote...

Aolbain wrote...

So we should give CD Project points for not even trying? I love the setting they use but too bad that EVERY woman Geralt meet is so oversexualised that its not eaven funny anymore.

They adapt the world described in the novels.  They can't change it to DA style in the games, because that's not how women are portrayed in the books of Sapkowski.

If one of the themes you inherit from the settings creator is sexist portrayal of women (not the same as a sexist world) then it is a stupid theme and you hould throw it away.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Dubya75 wrote...

Forgive me if I'm being ignorant, but how on God's Green Earth does portraying sexual violence in a game change ANYTHING for women in real life???
What next, someone that don't like blood and violence is going to insist we stop making violent games altogether? Or someone that's been in a car accident insist we stop making racing games? 
Really?

1. I will never forgive willful ignorance

2. False equivalency with rape and murder.  Everyone dies eventually.  Men have absolutely no necessity to rape.

[henkez3]

Dirgegun wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.

I'm sorry but I think it is out of order to expect the gaming industry to bend and adjust itself around individuals' insecurities. If that makes me appear insensitive then so be it.

How can you dismiss women not wanting to be portrayed as ****s or rape victims as we've been for millenia as our insecurities?? How DARE you.

I dare because I am not afraid or offended by men being portrayed in the worst possible way. I don't take it personally. No-one should take something like that so personally, and if you do then you clearly have issues that need to be addressed. By a professional, not a game designer.

To be fair, though, men can generally walk down a street without the worry that the teen douchebags watching them across the way might try and corner them. Women have to live with a very real undercurrent of worry that men aren't normally presented with. It doesn't help that media, at times, only presents women as being objects of a sexual nature. To write that off as insecurity, without having to live with that, is rather ignorant and thoughtless... :/

Saying that, there are ways the media demonises men that shouldn't be brushed aside, either. Fathers, for instance, have trouble showing affection towards their children, particularly girls, without the worry that some people, because of what the media has done, will see them as a predator and child abuser.

What?! Are you insane? The vast, vast majority of violence in western society is male on male. Senseless male on male violence is becoming alarmingly more common. One of the reasons so many non-criminal male teenagers carry knives if because of the fact that they are afraid that other male teenagers are carrying knives. It's a horrible situation and not one limited to Britain. Pub violence, gang/street violence is by far mostly a male on male thing.

Modifié par henkez3, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:11 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

henkez3 wrote...

What?! Are you insane? The vast, vast majority of violence in western society is male on male. Senseless male on male violence is becoming alarmingly more common. One of the reasons so many non-criminal male teenagers carry knives if because of the fact that they are afraid that other male teenagers are carrying knives. It's a horrible situation and not one limited to Britain.

Haha, wow.  WOW.  

Pal, we're not talking about violence in general here.  We are talking about women being victims of domestic violence.  There is a difference.

[Dubya75]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Forgive me if I'm being ignorant, but how on God's Green Earth does portraying sexual violence in a game change ANYTHING for women in real life???
What next, someone that don't like blood and violence is going to insist we stop making violent games altogether? Or someone that's been in a car accident insist we stop making racing games? 
Really?

1. I will never forgive willful ignorance

2. False equivalency with rape and murder.  Everyone dies eventually.  Men have absolutely no necessity to rape.

3. Would you be so kind as to answering my question while you're at it?

[Vandicus]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "treated as an object"? Is that supposed to refer to rape, or merely being lusted after? Or is this more a thing about media portrayal?

Being told that you can't walk alone anywhere, told that men are only after one thing, then certain members of your being dolled up and photoshopped then paraded around in the media like a proverbial carrot, yes. 

So its the media/cultural portrayal? Fair enough.

May I ask then, how do you feel about media portrayals of men where they're expected to be stalwart, brave, self-sacrificing, and honorable(while men lacking honor or who are cowardly are typically villified)? Is this an unfair burden, or does this create a positive objective for men to strive for? If you think the latter, would you prefer the culture/media to do a similar thing with women, creating "paragons" if you will, that exemplify strong positive traits and villify cowardness or weakness?

[AlexJK]

RinjiRenee wrote...

2. False equivalency with rape and murder.  Everyone dies eventually.  Men have absolutely no necessity to rape.

Did you just suggest that portrayal of murder is OK because "everyone dies eventually"?

[Xilizhra]

What?! Are you insane? The vast, vast majority of violence in western society is male on male. Senseless male on male violence is becoming alarmingly more common. One of the reasons so many non-criminal male teenagers carry knives if because of the fact that they are afraid that other male teenagers are carrying knives. It's a horrible situation and not one limited to Britain. Pub violence, gang/street violence is by far mostly a male on male thing.

True, but it's not sexual.

[mopotter]

Machines Are Us wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Meredith and Orsino could have been written in different ways - add some dialogue to show Meredith as having more of a say in what happened to her, that she took direction action. 

Characters can be weak or strong, or any medley and mix in between, but when there is a leaning in one direction over the other, and it falls in line with how one gender has been depicted over decades, it gets troubling...and old.

The point I got from this thread is not to "look for criticisms" without basis. She provided the basis, she pointed out areas where the 'standard' depictions are evident. The point here was to put down what the hope for the future stories/games might be - that there can be a better balance achieved.

But they wanted to show that she didn't have direct control. That was the entire point. Bartrand was also controlled by it without any input. So that argument using her as a female example is not a basis, because a male character was also powerless against it.

Orsino had control over what he did, yes, but that actually makes him worse than Meredith, as well as weaker. He had no direct need to resort to blood magic and chose to do it. That makes him far more malicious than Meredith and Bartrand, who were in the grip of something too powerful to resist.

You also can't really argue that genders are depicted in a specific way when some of the most powerful characters in the game are women.

Merril is not socially confident, but she will not let you sway her on her decision to remake the Eluvian. She has a strong sense of self belief.
Isabela is a captain, a leader, very sexually active, and very confident.
Aveline is headstrong, morally incorruptable, willing to take the hard road even if it costs her.
Your mother is strong and independent while Gamlen is weak and makes excuses.

You can't claim that women are depicted in a "negative light" when there are good and bad examples of them. That kind of attitude leads to box ticking, which is far more condescending and sexist than simply having some negative characters and storylines.

Good post  I agree.  One of the things I've always enjoyed about BW games is their female characters.  They are varied, strong, weak, good, bad and everything in between.  Just like the guys.  And they allow me to play whatever kind of woman I want to, polite, rude, funny.  Able to take care of myself or have friends who help.  

As far as my character goes.  My favorite line in ME1 was telling Harkin I'd rather drink a cup of acid after chewing a razor blade.  I used this no matter what kind of Shepard I had.  I have no problem with some drunk hitting on my character as long as there is one option to knock them down with words, or action.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Vandicus wrote...

May I ask then, how do you feel about media portrayals of men where they're expected to be stalwart, brave, self-sacrificing, and honorable(while men lacking honor or who are cowardly are typically villified)? Is this an unfair burden, or does this create a positive objective for men to strive for? If you think the latter, would you prefer the culture/media to do a similar thing with women, creating "paragons" if you will, that exemplify strong positive traits and villify cowardness or weakness?

Not the same.  Men being portrayed as particularly handsome or brave or self-sacrificing does their gender a credit.  Women being portrayed as sex objects for men to use does their gender a disservice.

[Fiacre]

Dubya75 wrote...


And you REALLY think the world is going to be a better place for women (and men alike) if we stop portraying the reality of the world we live in, in media such as games? Now THAT would be ignorant! No, not ignorant. Naive!

There is a vast difference between perpetuating stereotypes and troubling behaviour, and challenging them. The latter is good. The latter can include portraying these. It doesn't *have* to, but there#s nothing wrong with doing so, unless it stops challenging.

I'm not necessarily against portraying reality (though I very much understand people not wanting to deal with the same crap they have to deal irl in their fantasy world and indeed, not every game needs to be realistic), but writers need to take care with *how* they portray things. Bioware generally does a good job, but it is not, as nothing ever is, perfect, and I don't see why one shouldn't criticize what mistakes they make.

[Rinji the Bearded]

AlexJK wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

2. False equivalency with rape and murder.  Everyone dies eventually.  Men have absolutely no necessity to rape.

Did you just suggest that portrayal of murder is OK because "everyone dies eventually"?

Not all murder is justified, no.   But sometimes, such in the case of murdering a murderer, it is justified.  But there is ABSOLUTELY NO CASE where rape is justified.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:19 .

[Emzamination]

Dubya75 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Forgive me if I'm being ignorant, but how on God's Green Earth does portraying sexual violence in a game change ANYTHING for women in real life???
What next, someone that don't like blood and violence is going to insist we stop making violent games altogether? Or someone that's been in a car accident insist we stop making racing games? 
Really?

1. I will never forgive willful ignorance

2. False equivalency with rape and murder.  Everyone dies eventually.  Men have absolutely no necessity to rape.

3. Would you be so kind as to answering my question while you're at it?

If you don't know that people tend to mimic what they see in media then yeah, I'll chalk that up to ignorance.

[Dirgegun]

henkez3 wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

No offence intended OP, but you seem to have a chip on the shoulder regarding gender-specific references which you are projecting here.
I think it would make for a totally bland and unrealistic gaming environment if the developers were to do as you ask.
Removing the dynamics between male and female participants borders on the ridiculous.

How typical a man wouldn't understand that the stigmas we women have to suffer through in life, we'd prefer not to see in our video game media as well. Maria is fighting for female rights, equality and portrayal mr. insensitive.

I'm sorry but I think it is out of order to expect the gaming industry to bend and adjust itself around individuals' insecurities. If that makes me appear insensitive then so be it.

How can you dismiss women not wanting to be portrayed as ****s or rape victims as we've been for millenia as our insecurities?? How DARE you.

I dare because I am not afraid or offended by men being portrayed in the worst possible way. I don't take it personally. No-one should take something like that so personally, and if you do then you clearly have issues that need to be addressed. By a professional, not a game designer.

To be fair, though, men can generally walk down a street without the worry that the teen douchebags watching them across the way might try and corner them. Women have to live with a very real undercurrent of worry that men aren't normally presented with. It doesn't help that media, at times, only presents women as being objects of a sexual nature. To write that off as insecurity, without having to live with that, is rather ignorant and thoughtless... :/

Saying that, there are ways the media demonises men that shouldn't be brushed aside, either. Fathers, for instance, have trouble showing affection towards their children, particularly girls, without the worry that some people, because of what the media has done, will see them as a predator and child abuser.

What?! Are you insane? The vast, vast majority of violence in western society is male on male. Senseless male on male violence is becoming alarmingly more common. One of the reasons so many non-criminal male teenagers carry knives if because of the fact that they are afraid that other male teenagers are carrying knives. It's a horrible situation and not one limited to Britain. Pub violence, gang/street violence is by far mostly a male on male thing.

No need to call me insane, thank you, but I will apologise if I've offended in some way. I was thinking about sexual violence when I typed that, rather than violence in general. I just thought that would be obvious considering the section you pleasantly chose not to bold, I guess?

But yes, if we're talking general violence, then yes, that is on the up and tends to be between two men more often than it is between women or a man and a woman.

Modifié par Dirgegun, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:23 .