342 réponses à ce sujet

[Dhiro]

Droma wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

henkez3 wrote...

How is women walking down a street "domestic"? Did you not read what he/she wrote?

Here, I'll quickly illustrate for you since you are obviously male and don't know any better.

Women are raised in fear of men.  We are told from a very young age that we should not walk alone anywhere, because there are rapists everywhere waiting for us.  It's not a world that a man has to worry about living in.  Heck, we even read about cases where our own loved ones will suddenly turn and beat us because they're having a bad day.

if this actually is how you have been raised, then whoever raised you thatway did a horrible job. kinda reminds me of the lessons from miss choksondik on sex in southpark. And it would make you kind of overly biased which is never a good point for a fair conversation imo. It's like talking about evolution with a pure conservative christian.

Not to imply that you are one, but I hope you do realize that you speak like a complete idiot.

[Dubya75]

Fiacre wrote...

Vandicus wrote...


I did not say they were the same. My questions are actually based on a premise that they are inherently not the same. There is an abundance of "extreme badass(or paragons of virtue and honor)" male characters if you will(and comparatively few female ones). Though this could give a positive example to strive for, it does have a tendency to villify cowardice and any form of weakness. "True" men aren't allowed to be weak. If they are weak(in some temporary fashion usually), their friends snap them out of it. Do you feel this is a burden or a positive to strive for? If you feel that its a positive to strive for, would you also like females to be treated the same way(rather than as they are now), with "extreme badass(or paragons of virtue and honor)" by culture and media?

The portrayal of gender roles and the vast problems with that is, imo, an entirely different beast from sexist and objectifying portrayals of women. Andpersonally, I want varied portryals of all genders, less rigid gender roles and certainly less villifying of those that aren't perfect or fit neatly into gender roles.

Dubya75 wrote...

I may be a real wimp in real life, unable to defend myself and getting bullied all the time.
Now,
I can take the approach that because I am being treated like this in
real life, I don't want to have to deal with that in the game world. 
I have 2 choices.
Play a different game, or have an opportunity to be the victor.
I think I'd choose the latter.

It's generally my choice as well, but I can't hold it against someone to not want to have to deal with these things in any fashion in their games. I'm not sure if DA is the series for that, but it is a perfectly understandable and acceptable desire, and it doesn't mean that all media must shy away from themes like sexual violence or sexism in general, or anything else people may find upsetting.

I agree. 
However, coming back to my original statement, I don't think it is appropriate for anyone to demand that these elements be omitted just because they are sensitive to it. That seems a bit selfish.

Modifié par Dubya75, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:42 .

[Maclimes]

I know this is an intense topic, and I'm sure we can find ways to discuss it reasonably without name-calling or insults. I just want to remind everyone to keep it cool. If we can keep level heads in here, this discussion could continue for some time. But when it starts to get all angry and rude, you can bet the mods will come shut it down.

[Rinji the Bearded]

AlexJK wrote...

I didn't ask if you thought there was any case where murder was justified. I asked if you were suggesting that the portrayal of murder is acceptable because "everyone dies" (which is what you said), whereas the portrayal of sexual violence is not acceptable because it's unnecessary.

I assure you that murder, of any kind and for any reason including what you might think is "justified", is never necessary.

Sexual violence is not OK, but then neither are many, many of the other things that go in Dragon Age (and many, many other games, books, films, tv series, etc.) For example, why are we not suggesting that the inclusion of Fenris is wrong because slavery is abhorrent and has no place in society? Is it because slavery is not considered to exist any more? (It does.) Is it because the same level of physical violation is not implied?

And we weren't overladen with images of slave imagery with Fenris, his time as a slave was not made to sexualize him, he was not turned into an object, or anything like that.  It was dealt with in a mature way.  I can almost assure you that sexual violence depicted in the media today is done in the most exploitative and humiliating way possible.  It is a tool used to make women victims, and is used very immaturely and insensitively.  See: the crap that's been done to Lara Croft, or the rape scenes depicted in GoT.

[Aolbain]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Here, I'll quickly illustrate for you since you are obviously male and don't know any better.

Jay, sexism to combat sexism! Thats always fun!

Modifié par Aolbain, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:42 .

[Dhiro]

Joy Divison wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Here, I'll quickly illustrate for you since you are obviously male and don't know any better.

Was this necessary?

Of course. Male privilege means that a man will rarely understand the opppression of many women, unless they decide to study the subject themselves, something that not many do.

[Xilizhra]

I agree.
However, coming back to my original statement, I don't think it is appropriate for anyone to demand that these elements be omitted just because they are sensitive to it. That is selfish.

There's a difference between omitting and balancing. The idea is to remove gender associations from violence, if possible, or at least to portray them in a somewhat more balanced manner. And to balance out, too, things like the physical violation pattern in nonrape manners.

[Emzamination]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Oh I see, you've never played Planescape torment. Carry on.

Of course I've played PS:T.

Then you're just being willfully ignorant if you can't see how portraying a male degrading and talking down to a female in order to get what they want is sexist.

[Vandicus]

henkez3 wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

henkez3 wrote...

Perhaps I did overreact, sorry. The reason why that might be is beacuse I work at E.R unit at a hospital where I see droves of mostly young men coming in bashed up every weekend.

I... I can see how that would be distressing, and I'm not even going to imagine how that might weigh on you as I'm not in a medical field. Working in that profession means you do good work, though, and I'm sure many people are thankful.

It's okay. It's just that all kinds of media often forget that men have emotions and feel pain too.

This is the self-esteem/self-image trap that I'm talking about. The idea seems to be to portray women like men are portrayed by media. The way that men are portrayed isn't exactly perfect either. While it does provide strong heroic images to strive for, its got a lot of problems as well. I know people for whom it serves as a reminder of what they can never be, rather than what they could one day hope to be. Also, it is an unspoken rule that men can never be weak, even in front of friends. Pain? Laugh it off or endure. Crying? Hell no, and if a man were to even show a hint that they might start crying they have to cover/hide their face, and their friends will look away so as to avoid shaming him. Guys who actively try to avoid people assuming that they must be strong, frequently tell people that they're cowardly or weak(which I don't think is great for their self-esteem either).

Modifié par Vandicus, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:45 .

[mopotter]

ReggarBlane wrote...

The only way to avoid the OP's proposed situation is to make gender be totally immaterial to everything. Then, you'll get those that want their PC's gender to have some kind of impact. That's a hard place for them to be.

They cannot appeal to everyone. We'll see which way they decide to go. Hopefully, they'll put more effort into the story that they want to give to us rather than our story we want them to make for us.

If I wanted to read a story that conforms to every ideal that I think I would want, I'd write it. An interactive story still comes from other authors. Feel free to write your own, though, if that's what you really want.

I've always said, if I wanted my perfect video game i'd make it myself.  That's never going to happen so I play video games that come close.  BW usually does.  Only twice have I been disappointed with their work, (endings DA:O and ME3, though after ME3 I am able to go back to DA:O with an "it could be worse" feeling)  and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with DA 4.  

[Sejborg]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Women are raised in fear of men.  We are told from a very young age that we should not walk alone anywhere, because there are rapists everywhere waiting for us.  It's not a world that a man has to worry about living in.  Heck, we even read about cases where our own loved ones will suddenly turn and beat us because they're having a bad day.

This is pretty much true. I know it from myself. When me and my friends go out partying and a male friend up and vanishes, we would just assume that he has gone home or something like that. If a female friend up and vanishes we would be worried if someone has assaulted her or something like that.

But how is Dragon Age Origins or DA2 to blame for that?

[Xilizhra]

This is the self-esteem/self-image trap that I'm talking about. The idea seems to be to portray women like men are portrayed by media. The way that men are portrayed isn't exactly perfect either. While it does provide strong heroic imgaes to strive for, its got a lot of problems as well. I know people for whom it serves as a reminder of what they can never be, rather than what they could one day hope to be. Also, it is an unspoken rule that men can never be weak, even in front of friends. Pain? Laugh it off or endure. Crying? Hell no, and if a man were to even show a hint that they might start crying they have to cover/hide their face, and their friends will look away so as to avoid shaming him. Guys who actively try to avoid people assuming that they must be strong, frequently tell people that they're cowardly or weak(which I don't think is great for their self-esteem either).

Again. Balance. Remove the need to be superficially strong for men and remove the victimized portrait from women.

[Aolbain]

o

Emzamination wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Oh I see, you've never played Planescape torment. Carry on.

Of course I've played PS:T.

Then you're just being willfully ignorant if you can't see how portraying a male degrading and talking down to a female in order to get what they want is sexist.

But is the other way around sexist? Or male to male? Female to female?

[henkez3]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...


What?! Are you insane? The vast, vast majority of violence in western society is male on male. Senseless male on male violence is becoming alarmingly more common. One of the reasons so many non-criminal male teenagers carry knives if because of the fact that they are afraid that other male teenagers are carrying knives. It's a horrible situation and not one limited to Britain. Pub violence, gang/street violence is by far mostly a male on male thing.

I understand that you work in a hospital and you see mostly males getting hurt and seeking treatment, but that doesn't disregard the very real fact that when women are assaulted, beaten, or raped, it often goes unreported. At least, in my country (USA). Plus, let us not forget the victims who have no ability to report the crime or seek help (children). As far as the child demographic is concerned, the most frequent victims of child sexual abuse are female. 

Here are some interesting numbers (from my country's stats at least).

In the USA we have a reported 2 million males currently incarcerated.  Do you know how many females are currently incarcerated? 200,000. What does that tell you? Which demographic is most frequently committing crimes? Men. And while, yes, those 2 million males are going to likely duke it out on one another, they also come after women and children, who, as I said, often do not report the crimes whether due to fear/living in a rotten domestic situation, or they are completely incapable (children). 

Also, the system does not take rape victims very seriously. More often than not when a woman has the guts to come forward and claim that someone raped her, she ends up being the one put on trial. The system will question her up and down and dig as deeply as it can to make sure she wasn't "asking for it" - even to the extent of having her report what she was wearing that night and how much she was drinking etc, despite the fact that someone much stronger than her was in control of the situation. 

Look, I don't mean to belittle violence against women, not at all, I have to deal with that too in my work, and honestly, seeing beaten up women effects me even more, which leads to my next point. Violence against men IS belittled, both by men and women and society as a whole.The fact that most men commit crimes does not mean that male victims "deserve" it more.

Modifié par henkez3, 24 octobre 2012 - 03:47 .

[Dirgegun]

Maclimes wrote...

I know this is an intense topic, and I'm sure we can find ways to discuss it reasonably without name-calling or insults. I just want to remind everyone to keep it cool. If we can keep level heads in here, this discussion could continue for some time. But when it starts to get all angry and rude, you can bet the mods will come shut it down.

Just gonna quote this for truth.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Droma wrote...

if this is actually how you have been raised, then whoever raised you thatway did a horrible job. kinda reminds me of the lessons from miss choksondik on sex in southpark. And it would make you kind of overly biased which is never a good point for a fair conversation imo. It's like talking about evolution with a pure conservative christian.

I'm so glad that the very real problem of sexual violence in the US is somehow a joke to you.

[Dhiro]

Sejborg wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Women are raised in fear of men.  We are told from a very young age that we should not walk alone anywhere, because there are rapists everywhere waiting for us.  It's not a world that a man has to worry about living in.  Heck, we even read about cases where our own loved ones will suddenly turn and beat us because they're having a bad day.

This is pretty much true. I know it from myself. When me and my friends go out partying and a male friend up and vanishes, we would just assume that he has gone home or something like that. If a female friend up and vanishes we would be worried if someone has assaulted her or something like that.

But how is Dragon Age Origins or DA2 to blame for that?

Is it to blame for all the fear and oppression women have to go through? No, that was never the point, I think. It doesn't mean the way it portrays women can't be a problem.

[Xilizhra]

But is the other way around sexist? Or male to male? Female to female?

A great deal of it depends on the manner. However, I will say that I've never, ever seen a man complain about gender portrayals in video games until a woman does so first, then suddenly the men frantically try to think of everything that might theoretically balance it out.

[AlexJK]

Sejborg wrote...

This is pretty much true. I know it from myself. When me and my friends go out partying and a male friend up and vanishes, we would just assume that he has gone home or something like that. If a female friend up and vanishes we would be worried if someone has assaulted her or something like that. 

I'm slightly concerned for your male friends... vanish without warning and you wouldn't be worried?

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is the self-esteem/self-image trap that I'm talking about. The idea seems to be to portray women like men are portrayed by media. The way that men are portrayed isn't exactly perfect either. While it does provide strong heroic imgaes to strive for, its got a lot of problems as well. I know people for whom it serves as a reminder of what they can never be, rather than what they could one day hope to be. Also, it is an unspoken rule that men can never be weak, even in front of friends. Pain? Laugh it off or endure. Crying? Hell no, and if a man were to even show a hint that they might start crying they have to cover/hide their face, and their friends will look away so as to avoid shaming him. Guys who actively try to avoid people assuming that they must be strong, frequently tell people that they're cowardly or weak(which I don't think is great for their self-esteem either).

Again. Balance. Remove the need to be superficially strong for men and remove the victimized portrait from women.

A worthwhile ideal. Question is, how to go about it(which is why I've been asking people to share their solutions after highlighting that the male system is flawed as well). I quite frankly have no idea. Completely original thought is a difficult thing, and my range of inspiration does not include a solution that I can see. This task is beyond my capability to provide a solution for.

[Nevara]

AlexJK wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

This is pretty much true. I know it from myself. When me and my friends go out partying and a male friend up and vanishes, we would just assume that he has gone home or something like that. If a female friend up and vanishes we would be worried if someone has assaulted her or something like that. 

I'm slightly concerned for your male friends... vanish without warning and you wouldn't be worried?

Why?  I don't worry about my male friends just as I don't worry about my female friends.  Different perspectives different mindsets.

[Droma]

Dhiro wrote...

Droma wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

henkez3 wrote...

How is women walking down a street "domestic"? Did you not read what he/she wrote?

Here, I'll quickly illustrate for you since you are obviously male and don't know any better.

Women are raised in fear of men.  We are told from a very young age that we should not walk alone anywhere, because there are rapists everywhere waiting for us.  It's not a world that a man has to worry about living in.  Heck, we even read about cases where our own loved ones will suddenly turn and beat us because they're having a bad day.

if this is actually how you have been raised, then whoever raised you thatway did a horrible job. kinda reminds me of the lessons from miss choksondik on sex in southpark. And it would make you kind of overly biased which is never a good point for a fair conversation imo. It's like talking about evolution with a pure conservative christian.

Not to imply that you are one, but I hope you do realize that you speak like a complete idiot.

Am I? just because i find it horrible if someone raises a kid in fear of anything? I didn't pick the southpark example for no reason. it greatly illustrates how stupid it is to raise kids with fear. How can a woman ever trust a man and find love in here life if you raise her to suspect a rapist in every man? So you basically reduce her choice in life to become a lesbian (which I don't have anything against, don't get me wrong). The point is you make a lifechanging decision for your kid if you raise it that way and that is never a good thing.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Emzamination wrote...
Then you're just being willfully ignorant if you can't see how portraying a male degrading and talking down to a female in order to get what they want is sexist.

Sexism...You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

A game could allow you to snatch a dozen women of the street and force them to be sex slaves without necessarily being sexist.

[Emzamination]

Aolbain wrote...

o

Emzamination wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Oh I see, you've never played Planescape torment. Carry on.

Of course I've played PS:T.

Then you're just being willfully ignorant if you can't see how portraying a male degrading and talking down to a female in order to get what they want is sexist.

But is the other way around sexist? Or male to male? Female to female?

Of course it's sexist and If the Nameless one could of been female I'd still argue the same point.The difference however is that there is a world history of men manipulating and shaming women to get what they want which makes it particularly sensitive.

[Xilizhra]

A worthwhile ideal. Question is, how to go about it(which is why I've been asking people to share their solutions after highlighting that the male system is flawed as well). I quite frankly have no idea. Completely original thought is a difficult thing, and my range of inspiration does not include a solution that I can see. This task is beyond my capability to provide a solution for.

Well... I did have one idea, although I don't know how many would be able to live up to it or want to, and that is: write all the characters, but don't assign their gender until they're already written, regardless of the roles they fall into. If you can do it via some random generator, and actually commit to that, so much the better; this'll ensure a random spread of traits across each set of characters, and keep you from writing specifically gender-based roles for any of them.