116 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

So running with the idea of XP incentives(or rather anti-rest incentives of any sort), how would a player who isn't a mage or doesn't use a mage companion in their core party be able to interact with such a system?

They also have their own resource (stamina) and if we're building the system around that resource being expended using abilities and being restored while resting, it seems like it'd apply for them just the same as it would for a mage.

So how would you see lyrium/stamina potions interacting with the system?

[jkflipflopDAO]

Gimping the player is a horrible idea. The system is fine as it was in DAO.

[Allan Schumacher]

Vandicus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

So running with the idea of XP incentives(or rather anti-rest incentives of any sort), how would a player who isn't a mage or doesn't use a mage companion in their core party be able to interact with such a system?

They also have their own resource (stamina) and if we're building the system around that resource being expended using abilities and being restored while resting, it seems like it'd apply for them just the same as it would for a mage.

So how would you see lyrium/stamina potions interacting with the system?

Likely being rare and/or expensive.  It'd maybe turn them into the "Awesome but impractical" due to people not using them waiting for the perfect time, but I think I'd rather that than the abilities themselves.

[Vandicus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

So running with the idea of XP incentives(or rather anti-rest incentives of any sort), how would a player who isn't a mage or doesn't use a mage companion in their core party be able to interact with such a system?

They also have their own resource (stamina) and if we're building the system around that resource being expended using abilities and being restored while resting, it seems like it'd apply for them just the same as it would for a mage.

So how would you see lyrium/stamina potions interacting with the system?

Likely being rare and/or expensive.  It'd maybe turn them into the "Awesome but impractical" due to people not using them waiting for the perfect time, but I think I'd rather that than the abilities themselves.

That would better match the lore regarding lyrium potions.

[Allan Schumacher]

I was thinking something similar, since they don't seem to be the healthiest things!

[Vandicus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I was thinking something similar, since they don't seem to be the healthiest things!

Makes one wonder about the stamina potions too. The kind of drugs needed to provide such a powerful kick are bound to have side effects.

Seems to be a trend of junkie PCs in Bioware games. DA has lyrium and stamina potions, TOR has stims and andrenals(which are also addressed in game as being addictive), and ME has red sand. 

[tmp7704]

If i parse the thread correctly, the only actual "issue" raised as reason for mucking with the system is "i can just spam my most powerful ability and only a moron wouldn't and it eventually becomes boring so BioWare, make me stop."?

So perhaps the problem is there's the "most powerful ability" to begin with? And maybe the spellset should be more of a "a separate tool for each problem" variety instead, with the deeper tactics becoming how you efficiently deal with various groups of different problems thrown at you, that require smart application of the multiple tools at your disposal, in sensible order?

edit: alternatively, you have the throttling through "build up" approach. Goku doesn't spam his uber attack every fight because it takes him a dozen epizodes of exchanging pleasantries with the enemy about each other's mother first  to build up enough rage to actually execute such devastating techniques. Sephiroth doesn't destroy the entire solar system in 10 minutes long animation until he gets his ass kicked to the bring of extinction at which point he goes "THIS IS NOT EVEN MY FINAL FORM". Rin doesn't throw the Raging Meow Ball until someone actually kicks her cat. etc.

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:58 .

[TsaiMeLemoni]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

But isn't that the point of the combat encounters? Why bother being a mage if you can rarely use your innate gifts? To me that would be like preventing a rogue from using Assassinate more than once in an entire combat scenario. 

I can see support for perhaps a higher cost to mana, but I do enjoy flinging my magic across the screen for the duration of the battle.

Let me use my Dragon Ball Z reference. 

Why doesn't Goku just use the Spirit Bomb, right from the get go, every fight? It's super powerful and it takes care of everything. 

Because it be boring and it would diminish the role of not just the Spirit Bomb, but every other possible move or alternative. 

Does it not become mindlessly boring constantly clicking and using the same, hyper powerful spells? Instead of using more mundane skills/spells on more mundane enemies, using the 'big guns' when absolutely necessary?

Dont you want to feel your spells ARE truly powerful and devastating, because when you actually need to use them, they are a beautiful terror to behold?

I think the problem with this is that I don't really see many, if any, of the spells or attacks in the game(s) to be 'big guns' caliber. Sure you have a few that do more damage than others, but their cool down rate keeps you from using them too often during a battle.

Again, I think if you want to differentiate top tier spells/attacks from lesser ones to a larger degree, just increase the cost to mana/stamina but don't impose a system that will probably end up being so restrictive you'll have a whole cadre of abilities that will never be used, just in case there is something bigger and badder up ahead.

Conversely, they could always make normal melee/ranged attacks to more damage so there's not as much incentive you use abilities unless facing a tougher foe.

Modifié par TsaiMeLemoni, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:12 .

[Direwolf0294]

Just copy what MMOs do. 1 second (or there abouts) global cooldown for all abilities, few extra seconds cooldown for the semi powerful spells, few minute cooldown for the really powerful spells, pleanty of resource and high rescource regain so you're unlikely to run out in a fight unless it's particularly hard and you're doing something wrong. Maybe throw in a few spells that depend on a different type of resource, one you have to either gather (like soul stones for warlocks in old WoW) or build up over time though combat.

[TomHark]

I'd like to see potions come off the cooldown mechanic and be restricted in other ways. For instance, Lyrium is addictive so you could have a system where using two much would give you a negative impact when it wears off (similar to how injuries work maybe), while health potions could have a system of diminishing returns (like medicines have in real life when you use them often and the body builds up a tolerance) each time you use one and they become less effective as the game progresses.

[Master Shiori]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Any thoughts?

Restrict the access to top tier spells? Better synergies with lower level spells?

I honestly don't see the point. Top tier spells in DA2 weren't all powerfull. Take for instance the elemental tree. You had 2 aoe spells in form of fireball and cone of cold and a top tier talent that improves your fire and frost spells. However, the damage on these spells wasn't so high that their use would turn a tide of battle around. They work best when paired up with complementing abilities from other classes. 

So a mage can use a cone of cold to make an opponent brittle so that a warrior or archer rogue can exploit that to deal extra damage. A fireball, by itself, isn't gooing to clear out a group of enemies, but paired with aoe from another class can severely damage them and make the fight easier.

This isn't BG2 where your top tier spells can kill an opponent outright or take him out of the fight for a good while.

In Dragon Age, a mage is truly powerfull when combined with a right mix of other classes and never on his own.

[Sejborg]

What was wrong with the Origins system? The powerful spells took a while to activate/cast and you where vulnerable to interruption. And also some cooldown. Why not just use that again?

[Sejborg]

If you don't want players to just drink potions all the time, then make lyrium more rare and expensive. Give the player less gold, and the player will have to decide whether they want those extra lyrium potions, health potions, or save the gold for some item/gear.

The Origins systems didn't need the complete overhaul it got with DA2. Some fine tuning would have been enough.

[Wulfram]

If I wanted to genuinely restrict the use of abilities, then I'd add the following restrictions.

1.  You can't rest mid-dungeon.
2.  You can't leave the dungeon without likely either failing the quest (the bad guy leaves, or eats the prince) or having to effectively start again (bad guy brings in more troops/raises more skeletons)

Of course this would add some challenge to the gameplay.  But it would allow the restrictions to be meaningful

[TheRealJayDee]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Having said that, one consequence of having really fast regen is that fights must be outright lethal in their threat to the player in order to mean anything. Though it's up to the game designer to mitigate things like "Fight, rest, fight, rest" as well.

I think it should be a design goal that fights in general should mean something. They should be lethal and not neccessarily "cool". Ah, of course they should be fun, too, but not in a meaningless "I just casually massacre my way through everything and everyone to solve all my problems, while looking insanely cool doing it " way. Not in a setting like DA.

What should definitely be considered when it comes to spells is a better friendly fire mechanic. Spamming powerful spells is one thing, spamming them in the middle of ongoing melee combat without any consequence for your allied warriors and rogues is... weird.

[GipsyDangeresque]

Did anyone yet mention encounter powers ala the much maligned 4th Edition of DnD?

There are an assortment of abilities for all the classes in that version, more powerful than normal spells or attacks with the restriction they may only be used once, and are refreshed after your combat is ended and no sooner.

They're a middle ground between the weak but reliable At-Will powers, that may be spammed every turn, and the daily powers that are like traditional DnD spells, readied each morning and only usable again after an 8 hour rest.


That same principal would be great for more powerful and extravagant spells, making them one-shot uses whose cooldown only initiates once you've left combat. These spells would still not be completely overpowered, but nonetheless game-changers like long duration debuffs, powerful but temporary self buffs, resistible enemy paralysis and party member revivals or even just your biggest and most powerful damaging abilities like a Storm of the Century.

Not all powers would have to work under this system, allowing both a variety of abilities but also forcing careful strategy of when to use the best tools in your arsenal. You never know if the boss has another phase or if there might be a wave of reinforcements coming... (although hopefully on foot, rather than an Orbital Drop or parachuting.)

It even avoids the problem of unnecessary downtime frustrating the player rather than making the challenge actually fun instead of... well, boring, while still emphasizing a bit of forethought and wise judgment on the player's part.

Modifié par Atemeus, 25 octobre 2012 - 01:08 .

[nightscrawl]

mickey111 wrote...

I know it's a bit unrealistic to expect some magic system like the old baldurs gate and other infinity engine games where you had to hand pick each and every spell you wanted to have at your finger tips each and every time, but I believe that having this in some limited capacity would be negotiable which is why I'm bringing it up now.

I hated that system for mages in Neverwinter Nights and I would hate it for Dragon Age.

I honestly just found origins to get very boring and repetitive because all I had to do was build my character as a high damage mage (healing magic optional since healing items were plentiful) and recruit anyone like alistair who could draw all of the incoming hostiles attention and survive for as long as neccessary on healing potions... and that' one strategy just won the whole game for me, gg. it was very boring, and that was all because that origins had no real resource managment at all and it's the resource management that much of the strategy element comes from.

*Shrug* that type of play is part of the reason I like the mage class. I like to nuke things, I find it entertaining.

That said, I wouldn't mind a longer cooldown attached to a powerful spell, perhaps 10+ minutes or so. In raiding situations in World of Warcraft some classes have these long cooldown abilities that are meant to be used at the right moment because they can help save an encounter. I think the goal should be to have a balance between normal skills and those that are meant to be used sparingly.

[GipsyDangeresque]

nightscrawl wrote...

mickey111 wrote...

I know it's a bit unrealistic to expect some magic system like the old baldurs gate and other infinity engine games where you had to hand pick each and every spell you wanted to have at your finger tips each and every time, but I believe that having this in some limited capacity would be negotiable which is why I'm bringing it up now.

I hated that system for mages in Neverwinter Nights and I would hate it for Dragon Age.

I honestly just found origins to get very boring and repetitive because all I had to do was build my character as a high damage mage (healing magic optional since healing items were plentiful) and recruit anyone like alistair who could draw all of the incoming hostiles attention and survive for as long as neccessary on healing potions... and that' one strategy just won the whole game for me, gg. it was very boring, and that was all because that origins had no real resource managment at all and it's the resource management that much of the strategy element comes from.

*Shrug* that type of play is part of the reason I like the mage class. I like to nuke things, I find it entertaining.

That said, I wouldn't mind a longer cooldown attached to a powerful spell, perhaps 10+ minutes or so. In raiding situations in World of Warcraft some classes have these long cooldown abilities that are meant to be used at the right moment because they can help save an encounter. I think the goal should be to have a balance between normal skills and those that are meant to be used sparingly.

The problem with having such an abilitiy with a long cooldown is that I imagine two terrible scenarios.

a) The enemy's health levels/toughness and damage dealt are balanced around not having such abilities available to you. Such ten minute cooldown abilities will most likey trivialize the one combat every nine minutes or so that you fight in; IF you use this feature properly. Instead, what you will probably end up seeing is players getting too adjusted to the difficulty they get in those 1 in 3 fights, and they will just be standing around waiting six or seven minutes so they can use that spell every fight anyway.

The fights are balanced around the presence of these abilities. In this case, not having the ability available to you severely hinders the ability of your party to handle an enemy group without these spells readied. You will now find players not just waiting for 10 minutes because it makes fights more comfortably easy to win, and instead you will find players wating for 10 minutes because it's required.


My proposed feature up above your post avoids both situations entirely.

Modifié par Atemeus, 25 octobre 2012 - 01:54 .

[PinkysPain]

I don't think per encounter use limits (anything which goes beyond the encounter really doesn't work in cRPGs) would add anything ... but I would like non shared cooldowns to add a bit of tactics. Some kind of rage mechanic where you can only bust out the big guns after the fight has been going for a bit would be nice as well.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:01 .

[PinkysPain]

Sejborg wrote...

What was wrong with the Origins system? The powerful spells took a while to activate/cast and you where vulnerable to interruption. And also some cooldown. Why not just use that again?

It worked because the game was slow ... if everything can close in less than a second those sort of mechanics don't work.

Really the only way to have a truly tactical real time game was to make it about as slow as Origins ... and while most people say they want a tactical game, they also say Origins was too slow. Sigh ... too many console gamers ruining it for the glorious master race.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:07 .

[mickey111]

tmp7704 wrote...

If i parse the thread correctly, the only actual "issue" raised as reason for mucking with the system is "i can just spam my most powerful ability and only a moron wouldn't and it eventually becomes boring so BioWare, make me stop."?

So perhaps the problem is there's the "most powerful ability" to begin with? And maybe the spellset should be more of a "a separate tool for each problem" variety instead, with the deeper tactics becoming how you efficiently deal with various groups of different problems thrown at you, that require smart application of the multiple tools at your disposal, in sensible order?

edit: alternatively, you have the throttling through "build up" approach. Goku doesn't spam his uber attack every fight because it takes him a dozen epizodes of exchanging pleasantries with the enemy about each other's mother first  to build up enough rage to actually execute such devastating techniques. Sephiroth doesn't destroy the entire solar system in 10 minutes long animation until he gets his ass kicked to the bring of extinction at which point he goes "THIS IS NOT EVEN MY FINAL FORM". Rin doesn't throw the Raging Meow Ball until someone actually kicks her cat. etc.

No, I'm not going to do my own balancing of the gameplay by roleplaying and pretending to be restricted even though I'm not.

[nightscrawl]

Atemeus wrote...

The problem with having such an abilitiy with a long cooldown is that I imagine two terrible scenarios.

a) The enemy's health levels/toughness and damage dealt are balanced around not having such abilities available to you. Such ten minute cooldown abilities will most likey trivialize the one combat every nine minutes or so that you fight in; IF you use this feature properly. Instead, what you will probably end up seeing is players getting too adjusted to the difficulty they get in those 1 in 3 fights, and they will just be standing around waiting six or seven minutes so they can use that spell every fight anyway.

The fights are balanced around the presence of these abilities. In this case, not having the ability available to you severely hinders the ability of your party to handle an enemy group without these spells readied. You will now find players not just waiting for 10 minutes because it makes fights more comfortably easy to win, and instead you will find players wating for 10 minutes because it's required.


My proposed feature up above your post avoids both situations entirely.

I was mainly just suggesting a compromise for the OP, but I can see your point.

However, it does depend on what the ability is. If it's some sort of insta-kill button, sure I can certainly see people just kiting things around waiting for it to be available again. But what if it is a defensive ability? An example can be some sort of AoE damage shield, which would only be useful in certain encounters like the Varterral cave-in ability or the Ancient Rock Wraith's massive AoE spell. I don't think such a spell would be encounter-breaking, but it could very well save you if used at the right moment. If your potions are on cooldown, your mage is low on mana and the boss is winding up the spell, you can cast the shield to prevent a wipe and allow time for some extra healing.

Actually, now that I write that, Dragon Age doesn't really have a lot of damage mitigation that can be cast on the whole party. DAO had a nice variety of shields in the Spirit school, self-only as well as castable on others, but those were reduced to just a single shield from the Arcane tree in DA2.

Wynne's plot specific ability Vessel of the Spirit had a five minute cooldown AND stunned her for a short time when it was deactivated. I thought that mechanic worked out well.

TheRealJayDee wrote...

What should definitely be considered when it comes to spells is a better friendly fire mechanic. Spamming powerful spells is one thing, spamming them in the middle of ongoing melee combat without any consequence for your allied warriors and rogues is... weird.

So play on Nightmare if you want FF to be a real issue. YOU have the option. You don't however, have to mess with the way I like to play the game while not having to worry about FF, which is the specific reason I play on lower difficulties.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:44 .

[mickey111]

PinkysPain wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

What was wrong with the Origins system? The powerful spells took a while to activate/cast and you where vulnerable to interruption. And also some cooldown. Why not just use that again?

It worked because the game was slow ... if everything can close in less than a second those sort of mechanics don't work.

Really the only way to have a truly tactical real time game was to make it about as slow as Origins ... and while most people say they want a tactical game, they also say Origins was too slow. Sigh ... too many console gamers ruining it for the glorious master race.

Starcraft 2 was slower and less tactical than Starcraft 1, and pretty much everyone hated supreme commander 2 as a sequel. They were both PC exclusive. If PC exclusives are getting simpler and slower then I thnk tge implication is that consoles aren't at the root of the problem.

[milena87]

What if the spells/abilities with longer cooldowns are not necessary or overpowered, but just really useful ones?
I'd like to take Dark Age of Camelot as an example; yes, it's an MMORPG, but it's one built around PvP and one of the few games with a really satisfying combat (or so it was the last time I played it).

You had special abilties with a really long cooldown (at the beginning, some had up to 30 minutes): they were in no way essential, but they could help you immensely in the fight. Most of these abilities did not deal direct damage, they were supporting/passive ones. Also, you couldn't access them until you reached a high enough Realm Rank level. Again, useful, but not essential.

Crowd control played a huge part in DAoC and it's something that I would really like to see again in a game. Obviously, the complexity of playing against other people can't be copied, but maybe focusing the game around support instead of direct damage could make the game more challenging without it being frustrating or boring.

Modifié par milena87, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .