175 réponses à ce sujet

[T04stm4n]

Tymathee wrote...

smh my god you guys whine constantly, it's a game, not your life. If you dotn like the changes, dont play, go smell the roses, walk the dog, play with your girl/boy friend, whatever. theres more to life than computer/video games.

I was hoping to not get this kind of bad contribution to the thread.  We know its a game obviously.  Fans of things are passionate about them and will discuss the pos/negs that they feel exist.

No need to come in and insult us.  I keep playing even when I dont like changes.  I still want to talk about it.

[NM_Che56]

disgruntled troll is disgruntled.

[T04stm4n]

upinya slayin wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...

Just release your DLC as scheduled and let it be.

You cant keep tinkering forever and anytime you nerf something alot of people get angry at you.
Not a good way to keep customer loyalty.

For every point you earn witha  good balance change, you lose 10 for a bad one.  You can't win.

This isnt an MMO and doesnt desrve such scalpel-like alterations.

Quit pissing us off we already like your game don't keep misjudging our enjoyment.

Edit:  If this game had PvP I would be much less adament because player versus player requires this sort of attention.

go make a sandwhich

I would..but a week later I'd realize I had too many slices of turkey and not enough cheese.  I would nerf the mustard content by 35% because I like mustard the most therefore it is OP.  Gotta balance that sandwich even though it was so delicious to begin with.

[demondioma]

Master Che wrote...

disgruntled troll is disgruntled.

[Kristen Schanche]

T04stm4n wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...

Just release your DLC as scheduled and let it be.

You cant keep tinkering forever and anytime you nerf something alot of people get angry at you.
Not a good way to keep customer loyalty.

For every point you earn witha  good balance change, you lose 10 for a bad one.  You can't win.

This isnt an MMO and doesnt desrve such scalpel-like alterations.

Quit pissing us off we already like your game don't keep misjudging our enjoyment.

Edit:  If this game had PvP I would be much less adament because player versus player requires this sort of attention.

go make a sandwhich

I would..but a week later I'd realize I had too many slices of turkey and not enough cheese.  I would nerf the mustard content by 35% because I like mustard the most therefore it is OP.  Gotta balance that sandwich even though it was so delicious to begin with.

It may have been delicious but it probably wasn't healthy.  Cutting that mustard was a good call, you should probably assess the mayo too.

[elPrimoFilipino]

T04stm4n wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...

Just release your DLC as scheduled and let it be.

You cant keep tinkering forever and anytime you nerf something alot of people get angry at you.
Not a good way to keep customer loyalty.

For every point you earn witha  good balance change, you lose 10 for a bad one.  You can't win.

This isnt an MMO and doesnt desrve such scalpel-like alterations.

Quit pissing us off we already like your game don't keep misjudging our enjoyment.

Edit:  If this game had PvP I would be much less adament because player versus player requires this sort of attention.

go make a sandwhich

I would..but a week later I'd realize I had too many slices of turkey and not enough cheese.  I would nerf the mustard content by 35% because I like mustard the most therefore it is OP.  Gotta balance that sandwich even though it was so delicious to begin with.

Its all about moderation and not letting yourself get carried away with too much of a good thing.  Cuz you know...diabetes.

[T04stm4n]

Chris Schanche wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...

Just release your DLC as scheduled and let it be.

You cant keep tinkering forever and anytime you nerf something alot of people get angry at you.
Not a good way to keep customer loyalty.

For every point you earn witha  good balance change, you lose 10 for a bad one.  You can't win.

This isnt an MMO and doesnt desrve such scalpel-like alterations.

Quit pissing us off we already like your game don't keep misjudging our enjoyment.

Edit:  If this game had PvP I would be much less adament because player versus player requires this sort of attention.

go make a sandwhich

I would..but a week later I'd realize I had too many slices of turkey and not enough cheese.  I would nerf the mustard content by 35% because I like mustard the most therefore it is OP.  Gotta balance that sandwich even though it was so delicious to begin with.

It may have been delicious but it probably wasn't healthy.  Cutting that mustard was a good call, you should probably assess the mayo too.

Bahah yes!  I forgot the mayo issue!

BTW I'm just being facetious about the sandwich analogy.

[xBotharix]

Chris Schanche wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...


I would..but a week later I'd realize I had too many slices of turkey and not enough cheese.  I would nerf the mustard content by 35% because I like mustard the most therefore it is OP.  Gotta balance that sandwich even though it was so delicious to begin with.

It may have been delicious but it probably wasn't healthy.  Cutting that mustard was a good call, you should probably assess the mayo too.

Mustard seeds are high in antioxidants and are nutrient dense with selenium, which is known to have anti-inflammatory properties. One teaspoon of white mustard seed, which is the kind used for the yellow
condiment, is packed with 87.1mg of omega-3 fatty acids, 84.2mg of omega-6 fatty acids, 22.2mg of potassium, 27.3mg of phosphorous, 9.7mg of magnesium and 16.9 mg of calcium. These high amounts of body
beneficial substances in the seeds when consumed encourage the body to speed up metabolism, lower blood pressure and prevent atherosclerosis.

So you see.. you should actually have left that sammitch exactly as it was.. you just didnt realize it was good for you.

Modifié par xBotharix, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:11 .

[dysturbed0ne]

Why do people feel the need to come in and insult when someone doesn't share their opinion, FFS, just avoid the conversation if you do not have a valid point. I wish the MOD's on this site would just start banning people that troll, maybe it would be a bit more civilized around here once people get the hint. This turned into a legitimate discussion, and some will avoid it because of all the (usually same) trolls.

[Justinmiles19]

Chris Schanche wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

Chris Schanche wrote...

Most console game right now don't have the ability to iterate balance as fast as we do, which is why it hasn't been seen much. The first one that started doing the thing that we're doing now was, I believe, Monday Night Combat, and it was a really innovative way to push data in a way that let them make balance changes without a certification process.

I think we'll probably start seeing this kind of heavy balance tweaking more frequently now though as more and more games pick up that it can be done this way. As for the PvP vs PvE argument, we still think that a balance environment is the most fun environment to play in, even if you're not playing against other players. Seeing every player play the same kit with the same gun in every game isn't fun for most people.

And we never nerf based solely on 'this kit is getting played too much' but that is a nice indication that maybe there's something out of balance with it that we should assess. If that happens then we spend some time having a serious look at that kit, assessing the numbers, testing against other kits, and deciding if some of those numbers are a bit higher then we should have initially set them. All our nerfs are in the interest in making sure the game is fun for more then just the people using the strongest kits.

And as a final point, I can assure you that the weekly balance changes have no impact on any future projects.

ok, that's what i dont understand: why does it seem yall are getting upset with the choices people are making in regards to playing the game? by that i mean what characters/weapons are used, what factions they fight against, etc....isnt that the point of choice? wasnt that the reason yall gave us so much variety? to let us decide what we wanted to use and how we used it?....

you say yall dont wanna see the same kits/weapons being used so yall make changes, but that doesnt make sense either...reason being, that isnt happening....i've put a lot of time into public games (95%+ of the time i've played this game has been in public games), and what i've seen is the opposite of that...i've seen many variations of kit/weapon combos....that's another reason i dont understand the changes for 'balancing' purposes

The main thing I was trying to make clear now is that too many people using it is /not/ the reason we balance it.  If everyone is using something, and it turns out the reason is just because it's fun, not because it's too much better then a lot of other kits, we'll leave it the way it is.

But a lot of people playing something does give us a good reason to take another look at a kit and decide if it's so popular because it's just the best option.  The goal is not to leave any kits in a state where someone goes 'I want to be a shooty guy...well, I could play the human soldier because I like their skill set, but accept that I'll be doing less damage then if I played a Destroyer.'

There are a lot of reasons we don't just buff every other class up to that point either.  If we decide something is too good, then make everything else too good to meet it, then the enemies have to go up, and we have essentially done the same thing as nerfing it in the first place but with a lot more time and work.  That and it's really just not feesable to go through and rebalance every kit in the game up all at once.

Ok then heres what I see as the issue. The human soldier is not a rare card. The destroyer is a rare card. Most people have the logic that if "A" is harder to obtain than "B" then "A" should have some advantages. Why even include a rarity system if all the characters will be balanced down to the same level? The same thing goes for guns. There are a number of guns that out damage and out class their Ultra-rare counterparts. I think at the core of the issues with people not enjoying the balances is that idea of certain classes and weapons needing more power.

Lore comes into play as well. A Krogan for example is one of the most feared and strongest warrior races in the mass effect universe. That being said he should have clear damage advantages over other soldiers in his class. Yet I can jump on a turian, or human soldier and do just the same damage as him. So he doesnt really feel like the powerhouse he should be.

These are not my opinions, but this seems to be the trend I see on BSN posts. Ultra-rares need to be powerful beacuse they are hard to get. Balancing down everything makes them lose their sense of power and rank among other weapons that are rare, uncommon, and common. 

I like the balance but i do feel in regards to weapons they need that "It Factor" That would make manke me want to bring that specific weapon to battle and work to upgrade it over a rare one I already have fully upgraded and ready to go. 

Just my thoughts on the matter  Cheers all. 

[Malanek]

Completely disagree with the OP. Pretty much every balance they have pulled is understandable to me and overall the balance changes have resulted in a significantly better game than what came out at release. I do fear for the Kroguard and the Ghost and the Harrier (some of the my go to kits/weapons that are overpowered), while at the same time I will always wonder what the big deal about the Krysae ever was (I never had it in its heyday). I agree that the Devastator mode probably needed a nerf although I am not sure that was how I would have done it. But overall I am fully supportive of regular balance changes.

[T04stm4n]

Edit: removed accidental quote.

I'd like to thank Chris for chiming in on their reasonings.  I have no doubt you guys want this to be the best game it can be.  And it is a great game.

I wish more devs would follow suit with your strategy of taking your well-done single player mechanics and just ..well... adding 3 more players haha!  (Ehem Elder Scrolls...ehem....Bethesda are you reading this...Ehem!)

I imagine this is one of the most post-release supported titles relased on 360.  But im confilcted about that fact. Not support in general...but the frequency that you change things.  Sometimes its good to leave well enough alone, as they say.

To each their own though yeah!

Modifié par T04stm4n, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:25 .

[mykejm]

Chris, your level-headed responses to threads like this are an impressive feat.

[whateverman7]

Chris Schanche wrote...

The main thing I was trying to make clear now is that too many people using it is /not/ the reason we balance it.  If everyone is using something, and it turns out the reason is just because it's fun, not because it's too much better then a lot of other kits, we'll leave it the way it is.

But a lot of people playing something does give us a good reason to take another look at a kit and decide if it's so popular because it's just the best option.  The goal is not to leave any kits in a state where someone goes 'I want to be a shooty guy...well, I could play the human soldier because I like their skill set, but accept that I'll be doing less damage then if I played a Destroyer.'

There are a lot of reasons we don't just buff every other class up to that point either.  If we decide something is too good, then make everything else too good to meet it, then the enemies have to go up, and we have essentially done the same thing as nerfing it in the first place but with a lot more time and work.  That and it's really just not feesable to go through and rebalance every kit in the game up all at once.

ok, glad you made that clear, because that's not how it seemed....for example: look at the carnifex and pirhanna changes

that comes with gaming though...people are going to find what helps make the game easier (in this case, gets credits faster), but that doesnt mean the other options arent good

i've never been 1 for buffing everything, it makes games boring to have super things...i like how yall made everything in the game with pros/cons, that's 1 reason i dont agree with weekly balancing...at first, it mightve been neccessary, but i feel the game has reached a point it's not....have yall ever thought about not doing balancing weekly?

...also, thanks for responding...i know my post came off a lil dissatisfied, but that isnt the case...i've highly enjoyed what yall have done with me3 (my hours in the mp alone so that lol), and i will continue to in the future, just giving feedback...keep up the great work

[sandboxgod]

The key thing is I think Bioware MP team lacks a solid vision. Before you realease new content test it all the way. Don't use us as your 'crutch'. we are not your beta testers. Stop staring at your database figures and nerf us because you think we are using weapon X too much. Perhaps you need to hire a dedicated community member on your staff that has over 1000 hrs played.  Watch how he uses your new items and characters. If hes overpowered then there you go.

Something is not working in their development process. They are nerfing things left & right. Why is it when I play my favorite pvp games (Halo 3, Guild wars 2, etc) my characters feel just like I left them. This game rapidly gets rebooted every other week with massive changes. It's insane. I personally feel they are the worst balance team I've ever seen. Wait- then again I've seen worse (looking at you City of Heroes). So that's something!

Fun game though! Just sucks it gets revamped every 2 weeks. Bosses getting buffed. Players getting nerfed. Crazy  

[ValorOfArms777]

Chris Schanche wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...

Just release your DLC as scheduled and let it be.

You cant keep tinkering forever and anytime you nerf something alot of people get angry at you.
Not a good way to keep customer loyalty.

For every point you earn witha  good balance change, you lose 10 for a bad one.  You can't win.

This isnt an MMO and doesnt desrve such scalpel-like alterations.

Quit pissing us off we already like your game don't keep misjudging our enjoyment.

Edit:  If this game had PvP I would be much less adament because player versus player requires this sort of attention.

go make a sandwhich

I would..but a week later I'd realize I had too many slices of turkey and not enough cheese.  I would nerf the mustard content by 35% because I like mustard the most therefore it is OP.  Gotta balance that sandwich even though it was so delicious to begin with.

It may have been delicious but it probably wasn't healthy.  Cutting that mustard was a good call, you should probably assess the mayo too.

I think the Hawk missle launcher shield thing is the most "weird" balance change it's very painful it's just too big 30% is mroe ..probable and you not just nerfed that up you made the Destroyer Mode pretty hard to use now if you consider maybe raising the shield of the Destroyer mode a tad more then? and of course NOBODY uses the damn missle launcher much but me.... most ppl consider the grenades cause you guys keep raising that things "shield minus"  and the demolisher ammo rate didn't need to drop what needed to be done was just touch up the "power" of the grenades booster which you did but simltaniously cut the darn frequency rate of the grenade which I cosntatly have an issue of ppl already hogging them if you make another grenade creation class please be my guest... I'm tired of just that class suffering from some ppl overusing my pylon I need it sometimes maybe a character that has a similar pylon that makes ammo/grenades but does not NEED grenades at all hmm? this would help some of our demolishers a tad to irritate us when somebody takes our only "power" source

[Arppis]

Not to mention, if one kit is super powerful, people might start kicking others who are not using the kit.

[whateverman7]

Cyonan wrote...

It's not so much that they're upset that people like the N7 Destroyer, it's that so many people like it that it throws a red flag that says "hey, you might wanna look into why this is so popular" and 99 times out of 100 the answer isn't that the character has really enjoyable mechanics but rather because it is just incredibly powerful.

my post wasnt talking about the destroyer specifically, i was talking about all things in general....also, that leads to me asking: so what if it's popular cause it's powerful? it's people's choice to play/not play with it, or anything in the game...just cause something is popular (for whatever reason), doesnt mean change it to make it less popular...that is trying to dictate how people play the game, which i highly disagree with

[Shampoohorn]

Chris Schanche wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...
Just release your DLC as scheduled and let it be.

You cant keep tinkering forever and anytime you nerf something alot of people get angry at you.
Not a good way to keep customer loyalty.

For every point you earn witha  good balance change, you lose 10 for a bad one.  You can't win.

This isnt an MMO and doesnt desrve such scalpel-like alterations.

Quit pissing us off we already like your game don't keep misjudging our enjoyment.

Edit:  If this game had PvP I would be much less adament because player versus player requires this sort of attention.

go make a sandwhich

I would..but a week later I'd realize I had too many slices of turkey and not enough cheese.  I would nerf the mustard content by 35% because I like mustard the most therefore it is OP.  Gotta balance that sandwich even though it was so delicious to begin with.

It may have been delicious but it probably wasn't healthy.  Cutting that mustard was a good call, you should probably assess the mayo too.

I'm gonna assume Volus are the extra cheese in this sandwich.

[Volkai7]

Chris Schanche wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

T04stm4n wrote...

Just release your DLC as scheduled and let it be.

You cant keep tinkering forever and anytime you nerf something alot of people get angry at you.
Not a good way to keep customer loyalty.

For every point you earn witha  good balance change, you lose 10 for a bad one.  You can't win.

This isnt an MMO and doesnt desrve such scalpel-like alterations.

Quit pissing us off we already like your game don't keep misjudging our enjoyment.

Edit:  If this game had PvP I would be much less adament because player versus player requires this sort of attention.

go make a sandwhich

I would..but a week later I'd realize I had too many slices of turkey and not enough cheese.  I would nerf the mustard content by 35% because I like mustard the most therefore it is OP.  Gotta balance that sandwich even though it was so delicious to begin with.

It may have been delicious but it probably wasn't healthy.  Cutting that mustard was a good call, you should probably assess the mayo too.

Chris... I like Derek and his 'Hey Derek' thread but you just won my 'Favorite Developer of the Day' award with that zinger.

You should reward yourself with a candy bar from the vending machine.

Or something else if you don't eat junk food. I don't know you beyond your work in Mass Effect, so you may well not eat junk food. (But most people do love chocolate, so....)


In all seriousness though, while I won't say to disregard OP, you should know that his sentiments are not universal. I fully support, encourage, and endorse (with all the authority of Some Random Player) the regular updating of ME3's multiplayer.

I do wish some more of that would bleed over into singleplayer but I'm also willing to bet that's at least partially a different team than does the multiplayer work? (It's weird to see, for example, the charging up of the Acolyte be removed from multiplayer in favor of instant shots at the same time the Acolyte-with-shot-charging is added to singleplayer.)

[whateverman7]

Arppis wrote...

Not to mention, if one kit is super powerful, people might start kicking others who are not using the kit.

this is another myth that needs to be put to bed...does it happen? yea, but not as often as the bsn trying to make it seem...the kick rate isnt as high as yall trying to make it seem

[Madeline Lightning]

 Yeah and if me4 has multi, please bioware hire a professional who has had experience, A Lot of experience with multiplayer. Not some bipolar nerf/buff/nerf/buff/nerf amateurs. 

Modifié par Madeline Lightning, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:32 .

[Cyonan]

whateverman7 wrote...

my post wasnt talking about the destroyer specifically, i was talking about all things in general....also, that leads to me asking: so what if it's popular cause it's powerful? it's people's choice to play/not play with it, or anything in the game...just cause something is popular (for whatever reason), doesnt mean change it to make it less popular...that is trying to dictate how people play the game, which i highly disagree with

N7 Destroyer was simply an example since he's the hot topic of the day.

Though Chris explained it much better than I did in his reply.

[Kristen Schanche]

Part of the reason we continue the balance changes is because we keep releasing new content, some of which throws that balance off. Things that may have been balanced in the previous multiplayer climate may no longer be in the current one. I suspect that sometime after we stop releasing new multiplayer content, the balance changes will probably slow and then stop, but we've got a bit yet even just considering the weeks of kits ahead.

The 10-15 of us here that make up the gameplay team, both devs and testers all put in extensive amount of time testing anything that we make. But it's just the reality of the situation that all of us testing these things every day is never going to expose as many problems as the number of active players in the game all the time will. We balance new content to the best of our abilities but there's no shame in us admitting that we don't always get it right the first time, and sometimes not the time after that.

Halo 3 doesn't change for the reason I mentioned before, they don't change because they can't. The patch cycle is prohibitive of that. I hope that Halo 4 includes a system like ours, that more and more other games also have now, that will let them more rapidly iterate on their multiplayer. (I'm not trying to toot our horn here, we're certainly not the first dev to be using this method, but there are quite a few who aren't yet.) Guild Wars 2 is already beginning to go through regular balance changes, like all MMOs do, and I suspect that will continue.

[Sinnerj117]

Why?