112 réponses à ce sujet

[nksaint]

Did everyone really have that hard a time with her?



Weakness Hex ---> Cone of Cold.



When she is frozen just pound on her. It isn't long between freezes and if you can't last that long you should think about your party's equipment.

[yokwai]

Yeah, the fight is tough, but she is beatable. Not in the room with all the archers and the mage.



On my 1st play through on Hard difficulty as a shield & board warrior, all my party died and I had to lure her to one of the rooms to kill her, but it is possible. Then I finish up the archers and mage with a combination of bows and sword. On my 2nd play through on Nightmare as an AW/Bloodmage, it was easier with shimmering shield up & combat magic & bloodwound on the rest of the archers and the mage in the room. I still need to lure her away again. My party died again. On my 3rd playthrough on Nightmare, I decided to solo the game as a DW Cun Rogue with stealth. Had to lure her to another room and finish her off, but this time it was the easiest with my Grandmaster paralyze rune on my main dagger, Dirty Fighting and Riposte to stun her. She went down fast. The rest of the archers and mage was easy with bombs and stealth. She and her entourage is beatable with sound tactics. The reward for all my efforts, she will drop the Summer Sword, which is quite a good 2H sword

[Ponce de Leon]

Hey, I just noticed that Ferelden appears to be overly controlled by women. Just a hint : Broodmother, Flemmet, Ser Cauthrien, High Dragon...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

dark-lauron wrote...

Hey, I just noticed that Ferelden appears to be overly controlled by women. Just a hint : Broodmother, Flemmet, Ser Cauthrien, High Dragon...

Don't forget the Chantry. Only women are allowed to become priests, Grand Clerics, divines, ect, and the Templars are merely their meatshield serving boys.

Then you have Anora, Branka, and that Elf chick with the Dalish who takes over once Zathran dies.

Not just Ferelden, either. Orlais is ruled by an empress, too. So yeah, guys. It's a friggin matriarchy.

[huwie]

j_j_m wrote...
Next time Bioware, please make it so that it's very hard to use cheese-tactics in this type of fights. It would have been interesting if the doors in the big room where Ser Cauthrien was in were closed once you enter it, forcing the player to either surrender or face them head on. No running away.

Why shouldn't a player be free to face a particular challenge in his/her own way? My current playthrough often has Leliana, Zevran and Rogue PC, all optimised for sneaking. I always resent having them all tossed into an immersion-breaking direct confrontation when the party's entire play style is about scouting and stealth.

I can understand why these forced setups necessary, but I'd prefer they were kept to a minimum. If the plot absolutely requires me to lose, then I'll take a cut scene over a hand reaching through the fourth wall to deploy my characters to their disadvantage.

[Dargor Icarus]

Yeah I was shoked at the first time I played how tough she was, I remember I was thinking "Should thi REALLYA be happening?" but then I lured her out of the room and like stated before just pound on her while she is frozen.

[schemesNplans]

divide and conquer is definitely going to help you take her and her party out. also, a mage with a good area attack such as inferno will definitely thin the herd.

[Ulicus]

My answer to thread question: Because the combat encounters do not accurately reflect the reality of the game world, even in an abstracted sense. As far as the setting is concerned, your warriors cannot make crowds of people collapse with a shout, your archers cannot fire arrows that splinter into many others (short of magical arrows, I guess), and your rogues do not vanish into a puff of purplish smoke when they're being stealthy.

Your character doesn't actually become 20x more powerful over the course of the campaign, either.

Modifié par Ulicus, 01 janvier 2010 - 05:25 .

[Marso40]

KCat wrote...

Marso40 wrote...

YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO WIN THIS ENCOUNTER. IT IS A TRIGGER TO THE PRISON ESCAPE SIDE QUEST, AND PURELY PLOT DRIVEN.

Did anyone say otherwise? Just because you're supposed to lose to her doesn't make her any less powerful. That's the entire point, actually.. because you're supposed to lose to her, she's made unfairly strong, compared to the next time you'd fight her at the Landsmeet and supposed to win. Seriously, if you could invoke the Right of Conscription, and send her pre-Landsmeet version to the Archdemon, she and her archers would slaughter it. It's that inconsistency in her character that's the problem, not the plot point itself.

This is why it would have been better if Bioware had just made this whole bit a cutscene instead.

[huxley00]

Ehh I beat her with a melee/range only party by dragging her back in the room. I was laughing a lot as she was targetting my archer and he was running around in circles screaming for his life. It definitely took a few tries to beat her but it is within reason. She does hit like a tank, the archdemon always has relied on it's troops to conquer. I wouldnt say it is unrealistic that an arch demon has less hp or strength as its power lies in it's overwhelming troop numbers.

[Damar Stiehl]

Wait, what?

Blood Wound -> Cone of Cold -> Crushing Prison -> Whatever...

I had everyone back off on purpose and went hand-to-hand with her on my AW... yeah, I saw a lot of "miss-miss-miss", but in the end I decapitated her in under a minute. Even Loghain was harder.

[Realmzmaster]

I think the whole overpowered Ser Cauthrien is a plot device to get you to play it over again right after finishing the last play through. If you kill Ser Cauthrien you miss out on the prison break. You come to the forums and you read where everyone had fun with the break. Now you are wondering what did I miss? If you have a save before that point you can go back and see. If not you have to play the game again.

If you do not kill Ser Cauthrien you will always wonder if you could. If you have a previous save you can try and try to kill her. You may fail and then you come to the forums for enlightenment on how to kill her. You go back and kill her with your new knowledge. Satisfaction fills your face.

The sword you get is a good weapon for 2 handers (icing on the cake), but not nearly as powerful in your character or companions hands.

In fact the prison break gives you added chances to replay. Do I break out myself or have my companions break me out? You get some amusing quests if you break yourself out?

If you let your companions break you out it is even more funny depending on who you pick.

[Spads926]

I love having my companions break me out. Try out the different combo of pairs, the dialogue with some of them and the guards can be entertaining.

[eschilde]

Heh.. my first time through I beat her using AoEs to kill the archers. Not Storm of the Century, that one hurts your party way too much, but just the regular ones will at least knock the archers' health down to a manageable level and won't kill your party. 2 mage party ftw..



I think this fight is probably the most fun/satisfying to beat in the game, so it's difficult for me to surrender to Cauthrien even though Fort Drakon has some fun dialogue.

[j_j_m]

menasure wrote...


so what kept you from not using cheese-tactics anyway? some players seem to neeed someone to hold their hand nowadays to prevent them from using their own exploits.

I felt the fight could have been a good challenge if it wasn't so easily exploitable. I know 95% used cheese to win it, and then bragged about it on the forums. That's not right.

You know how human nature works. You do have to hold their hand to prevent them from cheating. In Baldur's Gate 2 people spammed cloudkill on the dragon from a distance and felt proud about it. They thought it was ok, but in fact, you could say it was basically the same as using the CTRL+Y combination to insta kill a monster. Why do you think the tactics mods always tried to make them smarter and harder to be exploited? Because that is what lazy/greedy people do and it isn't how the fights were designed to be fought. The devs don't mind it just as long as you buy their game, but some of us hardcore players feel the need to minimize cheap ways to exploit the game.

If you're going to cheat, use good and honest cheat codes, but don't pretend you don't cheat when you exploit game mechanics.

Modifié par j_j_m, 01 janvier 2010 - 08:48 .

[j_j_m]

huwie wrote...

I can understand why these forced setups necessary, but I'd prefer they were kept to a minimum. If the plot absolutely requires me to lose, then I'll take a cut scene over a hand reaching through the fourth wall to deploy my characters to their disadvantage.

It was supposed to be big challenge, but a beatable challenge none the less. The devs obviously knew it was hard, hence the archers stood still and didn't follow you around. They probably thought it wasn't needed. In other words, it was designed to be like that. People found an easy to way to exploit this tough "ambush" and make it a piece of cake fight. I guess that is up to you whether you feel like it's morally wrong or not,.

Sure, you COULD use your chance to run away in this fight, but wouldn't you rather have it that you couldn't? For instance, in Dragon Age 2, if there was a similar fight. Just from a player/fan point of view: wouldn't you rather be thrown in a room full of tough opponents and be tested whether you can get past them or not? A fair fight to test your skill. Of course the fight should be optional, but if you're up for it, why not fight by the rules?

I agree if I am to lose in a fight, then don't give false hopes that I could actually win it. A lot of Japanese RPG's have fights like these, and the opponents have unlimited HP because you're not supposed to beat them. I don't like that either. Just give me a cutscene.

[fantasypisces]

I have a question, if you fight her (i.e. scream "Death first") then lose because you want to do the breakout scene, do you get an injury? And does that count against the "I'm sort of a big deal" achievement?

[keesio74]

All this talk of Cauthrien made me want to go try to beat her again. The first time I "cheesed" and lured her out into the hallway to make the odds in my favor. This time I decided to see if it was possible to stay put in the room and see if I could win this fight taking on everyone (playing on Hard difficulty). Surprisingly it wasn't as impossible as I thought. But I pretty much micromanaged the whole fight (I paused almost after every round) so it took forever. Is "pausing" considered "cheese" also?



I posted the vid to show a buddy of mine that it is possible. Here it is if anyone is interested:

part 1:

part 2:



Basically Blizzard won the day by neutralizing the archers then pounded them with AoE spells (Blizzard/Death Cloud). Alistair showed his worth by tanking Cauthrien and taking her blows (with a lot of healing pots). Not a perfect fight but shows how micomanagement can win the day.

[Realmzmaster]

If you want a real impossible fight (maybe) try fighting the group or Ser Cauthrien alone without mages.

[Rolenka]

I was only able to beat her by separating her from the guards and taking her down with Oghren, Dog, Myself (mage) and Morrigan (mage).

2 mages doing nothing but heal + health poultices were necessary to keep everybody alive, and I had to raise Dog a couple of times.

The archdemon I did on the first try without any particular strategy.

Seriously, she might be bugged. Like somebody fell asleep on the 9 key when they were entering her strength.

[keesio74]

Realmzmaster wrote...

If you want a real impossible fight (maybe) try fighting the group or Ser Cauthrien alone without mages.

Might as well not use any weapons or armor. That will make it even more impressive.

[huxley00]

Realmzmaster wrote...

If you want a real impossible fight (maybe) try fighting the group or Ser Cauthrien alone without mages.

I beat it melee only, no mages (sten, myself (rogue), zephran and shale), it was hard but not impossible on nightmare w/ nightmare + mod.  

[huwie]

j_j_m wrote...
Sure, you COULD use your chance to run away in this fight, but wouldn't you rather have it that you couldn't? For instance, in Dragon Age 2, if there was a similar fight. Just from a player/fan point of view: wouldn't you rather be thrown in a room full of tough opponents and be tested whether you can get past them or not? A fair fight to test your skill. Of course the fight should be optional, but if you're up for it, why not fight by the rules?

I want to do just that ... it's the suspension of the agreed rules for plot purposes that I find to be immersion-breaking. Game rules represent a kind of "contract" between the game [designers] and the player; it jars whenever that contract is broken.

E.g. in your example of getting past the enemies, if the game rules allow stealth then I expect sneaking instead of fighting  to be a viable choice. If I mustn't sneak past them then I'd prefer that either it's prevented within the normal rules, or that the designers suspend gameplay entirely by moving the action to a cut-scene.

Modifié par huwie, 02 janvier 2010 - 02:20 .

[Realmzmaster]

huxley00 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

If you want a real impossible fight (maybe) try fighting the group or Ser Cauthrien alone without mages.

I beat it melee only, no mages (sten, myself (rogue), zephran and shale), it was hard but not impossible on nightmare w/ nightmare + mod.  

What ! You used a mod!  No, beat her without the mod on nightmare!