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Pro Mage or Pro Templar


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#101
Vandicus

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grimkillah wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

grimkillah wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Oh look another one of these~

Pro-Non-Extremist to be honest.

Would love for BW to give us a third option because both groups can be bat-**** cray-cray~


Third option: Synthesis, everyone now have magic power, yay!!!


Think about this idea it in its entirety. Kirkwall, the entire city suddenly has magic powers. What happens next?

(*hint, it starts with the letter A)


But you know it is going to happen, Sandal already mention it, and I bet Morrigan's old god baby will be the catalyst for this.


Its sort've an end of the world scenario if we get hundreds of thousands of abominations running about from all the places where the veil is thin. I don't think "everyone becomes a mage" is going to be a thing in Thedas.

#102
Xilizhra

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Medhia Nox wrote...

Or the world would be better off if all mages were drowned at birth.

You really are a mage supremacist Xilizhra (or at least you play a character who is).

Makes me happy I take the stance I do.

Well, then the qunari would conquer Thedas marginally before darkspawn overran everything, so... yeah, no.  As for mage supremacy, all I want is for the world as a whole to be more equal.

#103
Harle Cerulean

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grimkillah wrote...

But you know it is going to happen, Sandal already mention it, and I bet Morrigan's old god baby will be the catalyst for this.


That would be rather difficult given that his existence isn't guaranteed.

#104
Vandicus

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Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Or the world would be better off if all mages were drowned at birth.

You really are a mage supremacist Xilizhra (or at least you play a character who is).

Makes me happy I take the stance I do.

Well, then the qunari would conquer Thedas marginally before darkspawn overran everything, so... yeah, no.  As for mage supremacy, all I want is for the world as a whole to be more equal.


The word starting with the letter A I was referring to was Abominations, not Annihilation. Its a pretty glaring flaw in any scenario where magic becomes widely available.

#105
Medhia Nox

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@Xilizhra: Magic stagnates the world.

If the nations of Thedas didn't cripple themselves with relying on mages - they would have likely made vast technological advances instead o fusing swords and armor like primitives.

#106
Xilizhra

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Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Or the world would be better off if all mages were drowned at birth.

You really are a mage supremacist Xilizhra (or at least you play a character who is).

Makes me happy I take the stance I do.

Well, then the qunari would conquer Thedas marginally before darkspawn overran everything, so... yeah, no.  As for mage supremacy, all I want is for the world as a whole to be more equal.


The word starting with the letter A I was referring to was Abominations, not Annihilation. Its a pretty glaring flaw in any scenario where magic becomes widely available.

In a city with abominations and no one else, I rather suspect it'll become a "There can be only one" situation soon enough. It's not like demons are all friendly with each other.

If the nations of Thedas didn't cripple themselves with relying on mages
- they would have likely made vast technological advances instead o
fusing swords and armor like primitives.

Crippled? In the magic vs. technology clash against the qunari, magic won. And Thedas technology seems to be moving forward again.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 octobre 2012 - 01:58 .


#107
vortex216

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1. I don't see why in this thread people keep on bringing up "moronic" mages as a reason to side with templars. There are many "moronic" templars, like I don't know...MERIDITH! Evil skunk-breath ordered all mages to die over what 1 apostate did, flew into the sky and activated giant constructs of destruction. I think even a mage would have a hard time doing that.

2. Orsino was right...up until the point he used blood magic to turn into a giant flesh monster. That was obviously wrong. but what else was he supposed to do? Meredith did all that physco kill all mages stuff.

3. Anders did the right thing. The templars were tyranical. Yes, it was worse in Kirkwall, but that doesn't mean it was okay everywhere else. The mages were imprisoned for what they MIGHT do. How is that fair? They have great power, but instead of ruling them and being the judge, jury, and executioner, that should have respected them. Opressing them for centuries isn't exactly what I would call "the right thing". It was time for change, blowing up the chantry was most likely the best way to get their attention. I'm supprised a full-scale rebellion didn't happen sooner.

4. We cannot have another Imperium. When the mages win the war they should set up reuglations
and laws to prevent blood magic. Winning the war just to become as bad as the templars would only result in another war. Mages should not rule, but they should not be oppresed either. They deserve a chance at life. Remember the First Divine (it that what she's called?...) in Asunder. What she said about treating mages with respect and all that? It seems the Chanrty- the ones whe imprisoned mages in the first place- might help the mages.

5. FRAPP ATTACK! I GOT FRAPP IN 'MA 'STACH!

#108
Medhia Nox

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I'm fairly certain that - no - magic didn't win. The Qunari stopped for an unknown reason.

I will have to go check the Codex again.

@Vortex: A moronic templar is as dangerous as a moronic knight.  

A moronic mage is as dangerous as an army of moronic knights.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:06 .


#109
Maclimes

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There are literally three threads on the front page, right now, debating this exact topic. It's getting a little silly, people.

#110
Medhia Nox

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@Maclimes: It is silly - but hey, I've got some free time.

#111
UrgentArchengel

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I agree w/ Vortex216 here. But it shouldn't go one way or the other. Compromise is the key.

#112
LobselVith8

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Icinix wrote...

Mages showed at the end of DA2 they're hopelessly moronic - and I saved more mages siding with the Templars than I did with the Mages.


Varric notes that pro-mage Hawke ensured there were many survivors from the Circle of Kirkwall, while pro-templar Hawke can save three mages who may be made tranquil, and Varric gives no indication there were many survivors as a result of this choice; it seems unlikely since Hawke is carrying out the Right of Annulment.

It seems evident Hawke saves more men, women, and children from the Circle by actively protecting these mages from being killed en mass than your Champion does by purposefully executing them (to appease a hypothetical mob, as Meredith argues).

#113
Sandy

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My main/canon Hawke was pro mages, but I haven't decided which way my DA3 protagonist will lean. Always had a soft spot for templars as an organization, as a concept and a specialization for my player character, but joining them / siding with them would require the story to give me a better reason than to side with the mages.

I'm hoping I can go a somewhat more eautral path where we restore order without outright siding with one side and fighting the other.

#114
NUM13ER

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I've always been more sympathetic to the mages and very few templars came even close to changing that.

Dragon Age 2 had too many idiots and outright lunatics on both sides for my opinion to have a chance to change. If anything they both deserved each other.

However it was the moment I met a mage who was given the Rite of Tranquility probably ended any chance of me siding with the templars in all but my most "evil" of playthroughs.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 25 octobre 2012 - 03:00 .


#115
Medhia Nox

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It's funny how vilified Tranquility is.

People are too obsessed with being ruled by their emotions.

#116
UrgentArchengel

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Not really a fan of oppression. Yet, I understand the point of Templars. I refuse to cause a whole Mage Holocaust, yet the Templars are important. Still, at gunpoint, I'd probably go Pro-Mage.

#117
Xilizhra

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Medhia Nox wrote...

It's funny how vilified Tranquility is.

People are too obsessed with being ruled by their emotions.

It's funny how vilified magocracy is. It's not like any of Thedas' other nations are more democratic.

#118
Plaintiff

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Xilizhra wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

If the nations of Thedas didn't cripple themselves with relying on mages
- they would have likely made vast technological advances instead o
fusing swords and armor like primitives.

Crippled? In the magic vs. technology clash against the qunari, magic won. And Thedas technology seems to be moving forward again.

Not to mention, the nations of Thedas can't possibly be "crippled" by a reliance on magic, because there is no reliance on magic. The vast majority of Thedas has no access to it whatsoever. The Chantry controls most of it and of the few apostates that manage to get by, even fewer are going to risk their lives to provide services to others in the way that Anders did.

#119
Vandicus

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Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's funny how vilified Tranquility is.

People are too obsessed with being ruled by their emotions.

It's funny how vilified magocracy is. It's not like any of Thedas' other nations are more democratic.


There's only one nation on Thedas that practices slavery and blood sacrifices. Of course it will be villified.

#120
NUM13ER

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Medhia Nox wrote...
It's funny how vilified Tranquility is.

People are too obsessed with being ruled by their emotions.

Likely because the other other extreme of being forced to live with no emotions is considered worse than being dead. And I disagree, people aren't obsessed with being ruled by emotions. They're more concerned with having them in the first place.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 25 octobre 2012 - 03:53 .


#121
Xilizhra

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Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's funny how vilified Tranquility is.

People are too obsessed with being ruled by their emotions.

It's funny how vilified magocracy is. It's not like any of Thedas' other nations are more democratic.


There's only one nation on Thedas that practices slavery and blood sacrifices. Of course it will be villified.

Several others practice slavery. And mages are hardly neessary for humans to do either one, as we can see many times in our own world.

#122
Icinix

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Adanu wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Templar.

Mages showed at the end of DA2 they're hopelessly moronic - and I saved more mages siding with the Templars than I did with the Mages.


YOu mean Templars showed in the end they're hopelessly moronic. If you kick a shaggy dog enough, it'll bite and kick back. What, you think that Mages LIKE being prisoners? You honestly think that any mage backed into a corner and about to die would CARE what others thought of them turning to blood magic to survive? It's a damned if they do and damned if they don't. At least with blood magic they stand a chance to get away, Judgmental pricks like you be damned.

People may think Anders went a bit off the deep end with the zealotry.... but most didn't live their lives in the circle. He did. He saw the circles for what they were and made a stand. There was absolutely no way you could reform the circles without starting a war; the templars are far too entrenched in their thinking to 'allow' new ideas.


Like me...or my character in the game?

In real life I could never support a group that tries to get their views across by doing the exact same thing people are concerned about them doing.

In game I could never support a group that turns to blood magic before my very eyes. Yes Templars are wrong - but so are the mages. There is no clear cut choice here. Which is why I metagamed my final decisive choice.


There was no way to reform the circles without majorly changing the Templars, and they weren't giving up that power without a hell of a fight probably over decades. 'Slow' reform won't do a thing, because Templars would just fight tooth and nail like Lambert did. The only way to get meaningful reform was to start a war. Anders succeeded in that.

The mages were in a damned if you do and damned if you don't. Blood magic is only 'evil' and 'wrong' because TEmplars don't know how to deal with it. It's magic like any other, just a lot more powerful than fade based magic.

People like you and your judgmental attitude are exactly why the circles rebelled.


Once again...like me...or my character in game?

Because if its me - then we need to be having words.

If its my character - then my character is now leaning more towards annulment.


(snip)

Spiteful passive aggressiveness doesn't impress me, nor do 'internet bullies'. You are Pro Templar, I don't respect that stance. Deal with it.


Wait..you called me a judgemental ****** .... I asked if you were referring to my character or me? 

...you know, because mages and kirkwall aren't real - so getting huffy with me is just bizarre.

Unless you are just a knob.

#123
Parmida

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The side that causes the least destruction with its existence.

#124
Adanu

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Icinix wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Templar.

Mages showed at the end of DA2 they're hopelessly moronic - and I saved more mages siding with the Templars than I did with the Mages.


YOu mean Templars showed in the end they're hopelessly moronic. If you kick a shaggy dog enough, it'll bite and kick back. What, you think that Mages LIKE being prisoners? You honestly think that any mage backed into a corner and about to die would CARE what others thought of them turning to blood magic to survive? It's a damned if they do and damned if they don't. At least with blood magic they stand a chance to get away, Judgmental pricks like you be damned.

People may think Anders went a bit off the deep end with the zealotry.... but most didn't live their lives in the circle. He did. He saw the circles for what they were and made a stand. There was absolutely no way you could reform the circles without starting a war; the templars are far too entrenched in their thinking to 'allow' new ideas.


Like me...or my character in the game?

In real life I could never support a group that tries to get their views across by doing the exact same thing people are concerned about them doing.

In game I could never support a group that turns to blood magic before my very eyes. Yes Templars are wrong - but so are the mages. There is no clear cut choice here. Which is why I metagamed my final decisive choice.


Let me spell this out for you. If you, yourself, support the Templars; I can't really respect that view or a person who comes to that conclusion.

There was no way to reform the circles without majorly changing the Templars, and they weren't giving up that power without a hell of a fight probably over decades. 'Slow' reform won't do a thing, because Templars would just fight tooth and nail like Lambert did. The only way to get meaningful reform was to start a war. Anders succeeded in that.

The mages were in a damned if you do and damned if you don't. Blood magic is only 'evil' and 'wrong' because TEmplars don't know how to deal with it. It's magic like any other, just a lot more powerful than fade based magic.

People like you and your judgmental attitude are exactly why the circles rebelled.


Once again...like me...or my character in game?

Because if its me - then we need to be having words.

If its my character - then my character is now leaning more towards annulment.


(snip)

Spiteful passive aggressiveness doesn't impress me, nor do 'internet bullies'. You are Pro Templar, I don't respect that stance. Deal with it.


Wait..you called me a judgemental ****** .... I asked if you were referring to my character or me? 

...you know, because mages and kirkwall aren't real - so getting huffy with me is just bizarre.

Unless you are just a knob.


Huffy with you? This isn't me getting 'huffy', this is how I usually deal with people. I don't respect Pro Templars stances that go with 'mages are morons'. It willfully ignores the greater implications of the structure of the circles, and ignores the fact that a lot of the blood mages we've seen in game thus far have turned to blood magic as a means of escaping or keeping out of the circles. There are exceptions, but they are rare.

Anyone who has the view that the Templars are right -like you- is someone I can't respect. It speaks of ignorance and an inability to see the bigger picture. Got a problem with that? Too bad.

Modifié par Adanu, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:27 .


#125
FenrirBlackDragon

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I'm Pro-mage, for the most part, but I am in no way anti-Templar or anti-Chantry.  I can understand, at least in principle, that magic can be dangerous, and in the hands of people with corrupt or evil characters, it can present a problem. Mages who are untrained can also be a threat simply because they don't know how to handle their abilities yet.

But, I think things have gotten way out of control. Partially this is because of the role and power the Chantry and Templars have when it comes to how to handle the issue of magic. (Also, saying magic is a sin and a sign of the Maker's disfavor does not help their case.)  I believe the Chantry and the Templars have become jailers rather than the teachers and mentors I think they could very well be.

I have thought about if I were solving the problem, what would I do:

I think it's ridiculous that mages aren't at least allowed some sort of normal life. Granted, they aren't ordinary people and have a special set of problems to deal with. But, I think instead of punishing them for what they -might- do or manipulating them through fear and terror, why not reward mages who help others, shoe good character, and use magic responsibly?

Think of it like Operant Conditioning (did I spell that right?). We know based on this principle from various studies that punishment is less effective in promoting desired behavior than reinforcements.
 (Oh no, not real world logic!) D:
Mages who show good character can be rewarded with freedoms-  starting with visiting parent, supervised visits in a village.  In adulthood it could lead to a home, the ability to have a family (who isn't taken away from them), less Templar scrutiny provided they can demonstrate that they can be trusted.

In this system, the Chantry wouldn't be directly involved in running the Circle, just there to offer advice and spiritual support if the mage wanted it. The Templars  would mostly be there for supervision, but  as more of a mentor and adviser and to be there if something should go amiss, instead of keeping mages imprisoned and killing them or making them tranquil for less than ideal reasons. For the most part, mages and even non-mages or non-templars would have some role in managing the Circle, most likely political or even independent
 bodies.
Obviously, those who are caught using blood magic or using magic to manipulate and hurt others for self-gain would still be punished.

I know this is mostly wishful thinking, though. But, I think after hearing about Tevinter and seeing Kirkwall I think this would be a much more balanced approach. It's not an ideal solution though, some mages would still want more and try to escape. The possibility of death and Tranquility are still a possibility.  And not everyone would agree that this is a balanced or fair approach.

But, in summary, I believe mages are treated horribly. I understand the reasoning behind The Circle of Magi and the Chantry philosophy in regards to magic, at least from the standpoint of that we've seen how dangerous magic can be in the wrong hands. But, the role they have made for themselves and their Templars and how they have been handling the situation is no short of unacceptable. However, Mages are people like anyone else, and with power like that, they do need to be educated and taught to control their powers. But, that doesn't mean they should be stripped away from vital support networks and resources that could help them achieve that end.

The Templars and the Chantry need to change. their is no question about it. New Leadership, New Rules, pretty much a complete strip-down back to square one. Maybe even a schism might be necessary. More power placed to political parties rather than religious ones.

But, I disagree with eradicating them. If so, I think that is no better than the Templars use of the Right of Annulment on a Circle of Magi.

I know that are both people to admire and people to condemn on both sides. It is the same for any group, in any universe, anywhere.

I am in the camp of people who believes what Anders did was aweful. Was it necessary for change? I honestly don't know. I agree with him in ends but I disagree with his methods. Either way, I couldn't change what he did. That didn't mean I had to go along with it, And I could decide what to do with him afterwards. It was one of the hardest decisions in the game for me. It will be even harder when I get the Exiled Prince DLC.

I pity Meredith and Orsino for giving into their worst fears and becoming the very thing they feared the most: possessed by great evil and turning on their comrades.  I feel sad the Grand Cleric died, even if she wasn't much help and I tended to clash with her from time to time.

Ok.... so not a summary then. I knind of went overboard, but I think that's the closest thing to what I feel about it right now. :unsure: