257 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

FlamingBoy wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

People have their hearts and minds set to the point that nothing will change them, so sadly that's an appropriate word. I don't accept that my argument is worthless, just it is to those I'm proposing it to.

So you can dish out critiscism but when that critiscism is turned on you some how it still "there" fault, if your argument that bsn is not an accurate place to hold a pole then its your job to reasonably show (not prove, that would be to difficult) that some other community has a different view of synthesis.

Keep in mind if you are unwilling to do this and face the criticism you so viciously put against other people, you could always recant your argument

I never stated they were at fault, and I have never criticized, at least intentionally, anyone else's endings. All I'm doing is defending the one I support and saying that taking a poll from a single source isn't always accurate. For example, if I was to poll a single state for who they want as President, that doesn't mean that represents the entire country's view. 

To "defend" or "defending" an argument you must have something to defend like the legitamacy of a poll, you do not have a poll that contradics or supports the current pole. Hence you attack the credibility of the current pole. Defending that poles are "not always" or "sometimes" accurate is not a defence its a direct attack on the integrity of the pole in question, which is fine, however you have no ammunition or evidence to suggest that the community at large has a different perception of synthesis

I agree with you assesment with the election example however there is no denying the pole legitamacy in that state when there is nothing to contradict it, also if I was to take a pole in a state no one in there right mind would say that it represented the entire country, hence the example is not exsactly fair

Very well, while I still stand by the fact that stats are fallible and can be twisted certain ways, I'll drop the dismissal of this poll. Everyone can believe what they want, it's their right. 

[Restrider]

clennon8 wrote...

I'm not telling anyone what to choose. Just pointing out that very, very few people like Bioware's "best" ending.

Let me tell you how I feel, though.  This might give you an idea why many of us "destroyers" are bitter.

As a destroyer, I feel like I have the following two options:

1) Join the cult of IT, where you get to pick destroy and say "I win," but you have to deal with hordes of people pointing at you and laughing, because, you know, you're in a cult.
2) Take the literalist stance, accepting the abandonment and sudden reversal of themes as "art," where Destroy becomes the red-headed stepchild of the other two choices, picked only by shallow people and aggro jerks.

Not. Very. Satisfying.

Join the cult for a monthly fee of 5$. We also have cookies, liquor and regular Synthesis-bashing sessions.

[Steelcan]

As fun as synthesis bashing is, if rather have an actual conversation about the merits of each ending. Destroy all the way for me.

But f there is something, synthesis supporters, controller, destroyers, can all agree on is that refuse just sucks

[Restrider]

Steelcan wrote...

As fun as synthesis bashing is, if rather have an actual conversation about the merits of each ending. Destroy all the way for me.

But f there is something, synthesis supporters, controller, destroyers, can all agree on is that refuse just sucks

Refuse is the only true ending, where Shepard rejects the Reaper's logic as a whole.
If you played your first playthrough with EC, as I did, you would know that Refuse feels best, until you see Liara's VI... 

[Argolas]

The idea of Synthesis is terrible to me as a whole. Should we synthesize all human races so there can't be any racism anymore? And I do know that every organic-synthetic hybrid I ever met can be controlled directly: reapers, husks, collectors, Saren...

I rather trust in evolution than in the reaper leader's judgement on what life should be.

[Eryri]

If synthesis is supposed to be actually, literally "happening" in the ME universe, then it's absolutely ridiculous.

It's hilariously implausible. Joker's cyborg hat gave me the biggest laugh of the game.

It's also a hideously cynical and misanthropic reversal of the series' themes. Apparently different sorts of people can't be trusted to get along together after all. We may have thought that we successfully reconciled the Geth and the Quarians, but no.
Eventally our brutal nature will re-assert itself. Everyone is destined to fall out and start killing each other again, a fate which can only be averted by accepting the Grace of God(child) and his green magic. It's like a weird allegory for Original Sin. 

However, if you view it through the lens of IT (yes I am one of those tiresome, tin-foil-hatted nutters), then it actually kind of works. It seems creepy and repulsive and a victory for the Reapers, because it's supposed to.

I am rather worried about Jessica Merizan's comment that Synthesis will have occured anyway in any possible sequel though. That could be a disastrous premise for a game.

Modifié par Eryri, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:49 .

[RebelTitan428]

it's stupid, and not worth the time to discuss.

as bad an idea, as the crucible, and the catalyst.

[xAmilli0n]

The idea behind synthesis is a good one, touching on themes of transhumanism, and what it truly means to be alive. The problem is its execution. There is no conceivable way that the Crucible would have been able to cause such a fundamental change in ALL life. You really have to just step back and say "its space magic." Then you have the issue of ABSOLUTELY NO REPERCUSSIONS when you pick Synthesis.

So, that puts me into the dislike category. A decent idea, that was executed poorly, and thrown at us with little to no foreshadowing.

[Argolas]

xAmilli0n wrote...

The idea behind synthesis is a good one, touching on themes of transhumanism, and what it truly means to be alive.

Could you please explain the idea you are refering to? I am curious since I dislike the idea of Synthesis, but you might see a different one than I do.

[Foxhound2121]

Mass indoctrination one way or another. From what I take it, the main logic synthesis proponents use is, "Look, I have a pacemaker in my chest. Now the reapers won't want to kill me, right?"

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 25 octobre 2012 - 01:29 .

[xAmilli0n]

Argolas wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

The idea behind synthesis is a good one, touching on themes of transhumanism, and what it truly means to be alive.

Could you please explain the idea you are refering to? I am curious since I dislike the idea of Synthesis, but you might see a different one than I do.

I am just referring to the idea of merging biology and technology to bring about a fundamental change in the human (or any living life form's) condition, with all the benefits, and consqeuences it might bring.  Synthesis, muddled this idea up, but its still there.  Now how this works for Synthetics or how Shepard's "essence" causes this is where they lose me.  Why do the Reapers even care?

<_<

[Argolas]

xAmilli0n wrote...

Argolas wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

The idea behind synthesis is a good one, touching on themes of transhumanism, and what it truly means to be alive.

Could you please explain the idea you are refering to? I am curious since I dislike the idea of Synthesis, but you might see a different one than I do.

I am just referring to the idea of merging biology and technology to bring about a fundamental change in the human (or any living life form's) condition, with all the benefits, and consqeuences it might bring.  Synthesis, muddled this idea up, but its still there.  Now how this works for Synthetics or how Shepard's "essence" causes this is where they lose me.  Why do the Reapers even care?

<_<

Alright, although this idea is also in harvesting. You build a synthetic construct and fill it with organic life from the harvested civilization. Or the other way around: You simply implant tech into an organic being, which results in Collectors or husks.

I think I understand what you mean though. It is the next step after always carrying a smartphone with you, I guess.

[darthnick427]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

darthnick427 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

darthnick427 wrote...

Harbinger put it best: "Salvation through destruction." What do you know I guess he was right!

The cycle isn't destroyed though, they are enhanced. Only in Refuse, and synthetics in Destroy as well, is this cycle destroyed.

When I say salvation through destruction I was playing with words.  And suggested that only through the reapers destruction do we have salvation. I hate Synthesis.....

It's not salvation for the Geth or any other synthetic lifeform.

Way I see it we could rebuild the Geth if we wanted. Sure we may never be able to bring back the individuals that were lost but it is a necesary sacrifice for an end of the cycle without a shadow of a doubt

[Hanako Ikezawa]

darthnick427 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

darthnick427 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

darthnick427 wrote...

Harbinger put it best: "Salvation through destruction." What do you know I guess he was right!

The cycle isn't destroyed though, they are enhanced. Only in Refuse, and synthetics in Destroy as well, is this cycle destroyed.

When I say salvation through destruction I was playing with words.  And suggested that only through the reapers destruction do we have salvation. I hate Synthesis.....

It's not salvation for the Geth or any other synthetic lifeform.

Way I see it we could rebuild the Geth if we wanted. Sure we may never be able to bring back the individuals that were lost but it is a necesary sacrifice for an end of the cycle without a shadow of a doubt

That's the problem. Even if inserted in Geth platforms, these new AIs wouldn't be the Geth we knew. And I cannot pull the trigger that commits genocide on my favorite race in Mass Effect.

[xAmilli0n]

Argolas wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

I am just referring to the idea of merging biology and technology to bring about a fundamental change in the human (or any living life form's) condition, with all the benefits, and consqeuences it might bring.  Synthesis, muddled this idea up, but its still there.  Now how this works for Synthetics or how Shepard's "essence" causes this is where they lose me.  Why do the Reapers even care?

<_<

Alright, although this idea is also in harvesting. You build a synthetic construct and fill it with organic life from the harvested civilization. Or the other way around: You simply implant tech into an organic being, which results in Collectors or husks.

I think I understand what you mean though. It is the next step after always carrying a smartphone with you, I guess.

Yeah, the idea is there, with harvesting being an extreme form of it, requiring the destruction of life to create new, superior life (essentially).  Husks and Collectors are intersting, as they are essentially husks (lol) of their former selfs, but do follow a similar idea.

There are a lof of important questions that go along with this,  but you gotta admit, being able to answer you phone just by thinking it would be pretty cool.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

xAmilli0n wrote...
I am just referring to the idea of merging biology and technology to bring about a fundamental change in the human (or any living life form's) condition, with all the benefits, and consqeuences it might bring.  Synthesis, muddled this idea up, but its still there.  Now how this works for Synthetics or how Shepard's "essence" causes this is where they lose me.  Why do the Reapers even care?
<_<

Synthetics only gain a full understanding of organic life through Synthesis and the Reapers care because Catalyst was created to preserve life, both organic and synthetic and Synthesis fulfills this.

[ATiBotka]

I Love Synthesis.

[dreamgazer]

Steelcan wrote...

But f there is something, synthesis supporters, controller, destroyers, can all agree on is that refuse just sucks

Nope.  Well, the way it's handle in-game currently sucks, but not the idea from a meta perspective.

[Steelcan]

dreamgazer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

But f there is something, synthesis supporters, controller, destroyers, can all agree on is that refuse just sucks

Nope.  Well, the way it's handle in-game currently sucks, but not the idea from a meta perspective.

. I meant how it plays out, the idea is nice but how it ends up...... Not so much

Modifié par Steelcan, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:07 .

[xAmilli0n]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...
I am just referring to the idea of merging biology and technology to bring about a fundamental change in the human (or any living life form's) condition, with all the benefits, and consqeuences it might bring.  Synthesis, muddled this idea up, but its still there.  Now how this works for Synthetics or how Shepard's "essence" causes this is where they lose me.  Why do the Reapers even care?
<_<

Synthetics only gain a full understanding of organic life through Synthesis and the Reapers care because Catalyst was created to preserve life, both organic and synthetic and Synthesis fulfills this.

My main question is how do synthetics gain this understanding?  What fundamentally changed in them?  If this transition were to be done without Synthesis, what would it require?  Harvesting has been used as an example of how creating a Synthetic-Organic hybrid works, but that doesn't seem to be what is going on with Synthesis.

As for the Reaper's motives, I have not played Leviathan, so if I'm missing some insight, please let me know, but how does Synthesis fulfill the Reapers goal (other than helping them understand, as Crucible Synthesis also affects them).  If this transition had happened slowly, without the Crucible's intervention, what would stop the Reaper's form "preserving" them anyways?

[Steelcan]

Restrider wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As fun as synthesis bashing is, if rather have an actual conversation about the merits of each ending. Destroy all the way for me.

But f there is something, synthesis supporters, controller, destroyers, can all agree on is that refuse just sucks

Refuse is the only true ending, where Shepard rejects the Reaper's logic as a whole.
If you played your first playthrough with EC, as I did, you would know that Refuse feels best, until you see Liara's VI... 

. How is destroy accepting their logic?

[BSpud]

I hate all the choices equally.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

xAmilli0n wrote...
My main question is how do synthetics gain this understanding?  What fundamentally changed in them?  If this transition were to be done without Synthesis, what would it require?  Harvesting has been used as an example of how creating a Synthetic-Organic hybrid works, but that doesn't seem to be what is going on with Synthesis.

As for the Reaper's motives, I have not played Leviathan, so if I'm missing some insight, please let me know, but how does Synthesis fulfill the Reapers goal (other than helping them understand, as Crucible Synthesis also affects them).  If this transition had happened slowly, without the Crucible's intervention, what would stop the Reaper's form "preserving" them anyways?

1) With organics being synthesized, they gain synthetic parts surrounding their genetic code, enhancing them. Synthetic life recognizes that and since its synthetic as well can connect to it in some way. and since its attached to our genes which control everything we think/do, Synthetics can recognize those too and thus gain a full understanding of organics.

2) Since you haven't played Leviathan, you did miss out on the Reaper motives. It starts with an apex race called the Leviathans that through a process similar to indoctrination ruled the entire galaxy as gods more or less. However, theior thrall species would develop AI that would enter conflicts with the races and wiping them out, meaning the Leviathans weren't getting resources from their servants. To stop this, they develop something called "The Intelligence", what we know of as the Catalyst, to find a way to preserve organic and synthetic life in order for them to serve the Leviathans. Catalyst realizes that this can never occur because organic and synthetic life couldn't cooperate without Synthesis which was currently impossible, and thus developed another way to preserve all life via the Reapers. He started this by harvesting the most advanced race, his own creators, and turned them into Harbinger. And the rest is history. Since Synthesis is now achievable due to the Crucible, Catalyst's original plan is actually possible and once achieved has no reason to continue harvesting. 

[Reth Shepherd]

Steelcan wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As fun as synthesis bashing is, if rather have an actual conversation about the merits of each ending. Destroy all the way for me.

But f there is something, synthesis supporters, controller, destroyers, can all agree on is that refuse just sucks

Refuse is the only true ending, where Shepard rejects the Reaper's logic as a whole.
If you played your first playthrough with EC, as I did, you would know that Refuse feels best, until you see Liara's VI... 

. How is destroy accepting their logic?

You are saying that he is correct in that organics and synthetics can't get along, by destroying the biggest example you have that he is wrong. You are also heavily damaging the chances of future peace with another future race of synthetics. Think of it this way. What works better in fostering relationships and cooperation, intermingling, or apartheid? The Geth had all of...what, a month? Tops? to prove to the organic races at large that they WEREN'T big scary bogey-monsters. Now you kill the Reapers and suddenly the Geth all fall over. Not only is there now no chance of people getting to know the Geth and slowly dropping their old preconceptions, but there is an excellent chance that many or most people are going to assume that since the Geth died with the Reapers, that the Geth must have been working with or a part of the Reapers. You think the Quarians are going to rebuild the Geth? Ha! Many Quarians were shown to want the Geth back under their control, as slaves and servants. The Quarians are more likely to build a new race of servants and make sure that they are either non-sentient or unable to break free, than they are to risk another Morning War.

Besides. Starkid just offered you two very nasty examples of how you can become the next Saren. There is also circumstantial evidence that the Reapers had something to do with the creation of the Crucible itself. What guarantee do you have that he's telling the truth about what Destroy does? For all you know, it might be that EMP everyone was expecting, but it knocks out YOUR shields instead. There is no way, not without metagaming. (I admit the slides show everything happening as expected, but I personally don't trust them. Both the pre- and post- EC ending post-Decision has always struck me as more of a fever dream than reality. The Reapers showing you what you want to see, rather than what is actually happening. Take that as you will.)

Modifié par Reth Shepherd, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:37 .

[rekn2]

i love the idea of synthesis and consider myself a transhumanist bbuuuttttt i despise it in the ME narrative, it made no sense