257 réponses à ce sujet

[xAmilli0n]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

More synthesis-is-a-bad-idea foreshadowing:

Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik: Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.

(See previous page for heavy ending foreshadowing in Project Overlord)

Again, Synthesis doesn't plant an AI in your head that will fight for dominance.

@Doomsday

You just made me think of a comparison.  In the Dragon Age universe, Blood Magic is painted as evil, but we are shown is doesn't have to be if used properly (now, I'm not well versed in DA, but this is what I got out of it...maybe).

This can be compared to Synthesis, or simply merging Biology with Tech.  It often ends badly, and this is what history has shown us, but if the proper steps are taken, it is not inherently bad.  This doesn't mean there wont be consequences.

Not a great comparison, but this just came to mind.

@LDS

This is curious, because were does the man and the machine end?  I realize that in Synthesis they become indisguishable, but they are still there.  What happens if you, for some reason lose control of the Synthetic part of yourself?

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:27 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

More synthesis-is-a-bad-idea foreshadowing:

Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik: Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.

(See previous page for heavy ending foreshadowing in Project Overlord)

Again, Synthesis doesn't plant an AI in your head that will fight for dominance.

You don't know that.

"Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology."

Even if it's just implants, the Reapers will be controlling organics, just like they did Saren.

Look, all three games are chock-full of examples of control and synthesis scenarios gone wrong. There's a reason for that.

Control and synthesis are only advocated by the villains. All your friends and allies tell you there's only one way to defeat the Reapers: to destroy them. There's a reason for that.

You remind me of this:

Bailey: I think all the reports are starting to sink in. You can only live in denial so long.

Shepard: You either wake up or die.

(...)

Bailey: We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:28 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Reth Shepherd wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

i don't go anywhere near Indoctrination Hypothesis stuff. That has more holes than the endings ever did.

Why not? The Reapers have been using it as a major tool for at least the past billion years. Why wouldn't they try and use it against Shepard? As a correlary, have you read Mass Effect: Retribution? There's a scene near the end between Kahlee Sanders and Paul Grayson that mirrors nearly exactly the original chat with Starkid. I can quote the passage, if you'd like.

Also, you haven't responded yet to 'the Reapers ENSLAVED and used as a weapon the one race we know of who achieved Synthesis on their own'. A race that, by all accounts, was getting along just fine on its own.

It's been a while, so please do. They tried, through The Illuse Man encounter but Shepard fought through it. As for the Zha'til, at that time of the harvest the AI's had taken complete control of the Zha and were fighting the Prothean Empire, so there was no Synthesis. The Reapers then enslaved the Zha'til like the Geth were, under the false pretense of aiding them.

"When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky"."

Give me a moment on the Retribution passage, I need to dig through a few bookmarks.

Then Javik lied about the Metacon War happening long before the Reapers, but I'll concede that the Zha'til were manipulated from the beginning. Note to self: Don't trust Javik ever again.

[AresKeith]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

i don't go anywhere near Indoctrination Hypothesis stuff. That has more holes than the endings ever did.

Why not? The Reapers have been using it as a major tool for at least the past billion years. Why wouldn't they try and use it against Shepard? As a correlary, have you read Mass Effect: Retribution? There's a scene near the end between Kahlee Sanders and Paul Grayson that mirrors nearly exactly the original chat with Starkid. I can quote the passage, if you'd like.

Also, you haven't responded yet to 'the Reapers ENSLAVED and used as a weapon the one race we know of who achieved Synthesis on their own'. A race that, by all accounts, was getting along just fine on its own.

It's been a while, so please do. They tried, through The Illuse Man encounter but Shepard fought through it. As for the Zha'til, at that time of the harvest the AI's had taken complete control of the Zha and were fighting the Prothean Empire, so there was no Synthesis. The Reapers then enslaved the Zha'til like the Geth were, under the false pretense of aiding them.

"When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky"."

Give me a moment on the Retribution passage, I need to dig through a few bookmarks.

Then Javik lied about the Metacon War happening long before the Reapers, but I'll concede that the Zha'til were manipulated from the beginning. Note to self: Don't trust Javik ever again.

The thing with Javik is that he was born late into the Reaper Invasion, so he only knows about the Zha'tll and Metacon War. He wouldn't know the full backstory to it.

Some of things he say are true, and some are biased

[Reth Shepherd]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

i don't go anywhere near Indoctrination Hypothesis stuff. That has more holes than the endings ever did.

Why not? The Reapers have been using it as a major tool for at least the past billion years. Why wouldn't they try and use it against Shepard? As a correlary, have you read Mass Effect: Retribution? There's a scene near the end between Kahlee Sanders and Paul Grayson that mirrors nearly exactly the original chat with Starkid. I can quote the passage, if you'd like.

Also, you haven't responded yet to 'the Reapers ENSLAVED and used as a weapon the one race we know of who achieved Synthesis on their own'. A race that, by all accounts, was getting along just fine on its own.

It's been a while, so please do. They tried, through The Illuse Man encounter but Shepard fought through it. As for the Zha'til, at that time of the harvest the AI's had taken complete control of the Zha and were fighting the Prothean Empire, so there was no Synthesis. The Reapers then enslaved the Zha'til like the Geth were, under the false pretense of aiding them.

"When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky"."

Give me a moment on the Retribution passage, I need to dig through a few bookmarks.

Then Javik lied about the Metacon War happening long before the Reapers, but I'll concede that the Zha'til were manipulated from the beginning. Note to self: Don't trust Javik ever again.

The two don't actually have to be mutually exclusive. Sovereign was present pre-invasion this cycle and he certainly made his presense felt. Harbinger was in deep space and managed to wreak havok. It is entirely possible that one or two Reapers frelled up the zha'til, used them to damage the Prothean empire, then the Reaper fleet sailed in and mopped up.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

More synthesis-is-a-bad-idea foreshadowing:

Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik: Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.

(See previous page for heavy ending foreshadowing in Project Overlord)

Again, Synthesis doesn't plant an AI in your head that will fight for dominance.

You don't know that.
"Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology."
Even if it's just implants, the Reapers will be controlling organics, just like they did Saren.
Look, all three games are chock-full of examples of control and synthesis scenarios gone wrong. There's a reason for that.
Control and synthesis are only advocated by the villains. All your friends and allies tell you there's only one way to defeat the Reapers: to destroy them. There's a reason for that.
You remind me of this:
Bailey: I think all the reports are starting to sink in. You can only live in denial so long.
Shepard: You either wake up or die.
(...)
Bailey: We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.

You don't know it either. As for experiments of these endings always being failures:
Control experiments: yes (biggest being Overlord)
Synthesis experiments: no (biggest being Lazarus)
Also, not all friends were against it. Legion, my fav squadmate, was all for using Reaper Code at the emnd to enhance his people.

[rekn2]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

i don't go anywhere near Indoctrination Hypothesis stuff. That has more holes than the endings ever did.

Why not? The Reapers have been using it as a major tool for at least the past billion years. Why wouldn't they try and use it against Shepard? As a correlary, have you read Mass Effect: Retribution? There's a scene near the end between Kahlee Sanders and Paul Grayson that mirrors nearly exactly the original chat with Starkid. I can quote the passage, if you'd like.

Also, you haven't responded yet to 'the Reapers ENSLAVED and used as a weapon the one race we know of who achieved Synthesis on their own'. A race that, by all accounts, was getting along just fine on its own.

It's been a while, so please do. They tried, through The Illuse Man encounter but Shepard fought through it. As for the Zha'til, at that time of the harvest the AI's had taken complete control of the Zha and were fighting the Prothean Empire, so there was no Synthesis. The Reapers then enslaved the Zha'til like the Geth were, under the false pretense of aiding them.

"When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky"."

Give me a moment on the Retribution passage, I need to dig through a few bookmarks.

Then Javik lied about the Metacon War happening long before the Reapers, but I'll concede that the Zha'til were manipulated from the beginning. Note to self: Don't trust Javik ever again.

what reth quoted was not what javik said

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Reth Shepherd wrote...
The two don't actually have to be mutually exclusive. Sovereign was present pre-invasion this cycle and he certainly made his presense felt. Harbinger was in deep space and managed to wreak havok. It is entirely possible that one or two Reapers frelled up the zha'til, used them to damage the Prothean empire, then the Reaper fleet sailed in and mopped up.

AresKeith wrote...

The thing with Javik is that he was born late into the Reaper Invasion, so he only knows about the Zha'tll and Metacon War. He wouldn't know the full backstory to it.

Some of things he say are true, and some are biased

True, on both counts.

rekn2 wrote...
what reth quoted was not what javik said

He was quoting the codex, that's why I was confused because I never saw that entry before so I figured what javik said was full truth..

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:37 .

[AresKeith]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...
The two don't actually have to be mutually exclusive. Sovereign was present pre-invasion this cycle and he certainly made his presense felt. Harbinger was in deep space and managed to wreak havok. It is entirely possible that one or two Reapers frelled up the zha'til, used them to damage the Prothean empire, then the Reaper fleet sailed in and mopped up.

AresKeith wrote...

The thing with Javik is that he was born late into the Reaper Invasion, so he only knows about the Zha'tll and Metacon War. He wouldn't know the full backstory to it.

Some of things he say are true, and some are biased

True, on both counts.

And people say we can't have a civil conversation lol

[Argolas]

Reth Shepherd wrote...
The two don't actually have to be mutually exclusive. Sovereign was present pre-invasion this cycle and he certainly made his presense felt. Harbinger was in deep space and managed to wreak havok. It is entirely possible that one or two Reapers frelled up the zha'til, used them to damage the Prothean empire, then the Reaper fleet sailed in and mopped up.

Right. Remember the Rachni Wars? We learn from the Rachni queen that indoctrination was involved. A reaper, most likely Souvereign, prepared for the invasion long before the actual arrival.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Argolas wrote...
Right. Remember the Rachni Wars? We learn from the Rachni queen that indoctrination was involved. A reaper, most likely Souvereign, prepared for the invasion long before the actual arrival.

I thought Leviathan actually hints that the Leviathans were manipulating them since there version of indoctrination is closer to what the Rachni described than the Reapers form of indoctrination?

[Cyberstrike nTo]

I guess I'm indifferent towards it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

AresKeith wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...
The two don't actually have to be mutually exclusive. Sovereign was present pre-invasion this cycle and he certainly made his presense felt. Harbinger was in deep space and managed to wreak havok. It is entirely possible that one or two Reapers frelled up the zha'til, used them to damage the Prothean empire, then the Reaper fleet sailed in and mopped up.

AresKeith wrote...

The thing with Javik is that he was born late into the Reaper Invasion, so he only knows about the Zha'tll and Metacon War. He wouldn't know the full backstory to it.

Some of things he say are true, and some are biased

True, on both counts.

And people say we can't have a civil conversation lol

Yeah! *raises hand to high five* We ended civilly. We need to show this to tjhose who said it's impossible.

[Reth Shepherd]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

More synthesis-is-a-bad-idea foreshadowing:

Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik: Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.

(See previous page for heavy ending foreshadowing in Project Overlord)

Again, Synthesis doesn't plant an AI in your head that will fight for dominance.

You don't know that.
"Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology."
Even if it's just implants, the Reapers will be controlling organics, just like they did Saren.
Look, all three games are chock-full of examples of control and synthesis scenarios gone wrong. There's a reason for that.
Control and synthesis are only advocated by the villains. All your friends and allies tell you there's only one way to defeat the Reapers: to destroy them. There's a reason for that.
You remind me of this:
Bailey: I think all the reports are starting to sink in. You can only live in denial so long.
Shepard: You either wake up or die.
(...)
Bailey: We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.

You don't know it either. As for experiments of these endings always being failures:
Control experiments: yes (biggest being Overlord)
Synthesis experiments: no (biggest being Lazarus)
Also, not all friends were against it. Legion, my fav squadmate, was all for using Reaper Code at the end to enhance his people.

Yeah, he was. However, if you back up a little, to ME2, his position was the exact opposite. This is just my personal opinion, but I actually favor him as an example of 'the only people who like synthesis are indoctrinated'. Legion was originally against using Reaper code and said so on two separate occasions. The whole reason the "heretics" came into existance was because they DID want to use Reaper tech to enhance themselves, while the rest of the Geth (including Legion's programs) did not. Then Legion does an about-face...AFTER being exposed to Reaper tech. Remember the state he was in when we found him about the dreanaught? We have no way of knowing what all was done to him, and his sudden change of opinion about Reaper upgrades is suspect, at best.

[xAmilli0n]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You don't know it either. As for experiments of these endings always being failures:
Control experiments: yes (biggest being Overlord)
Synthesis experiments: no (biggest being Lazarus)
Also, not all friends were against it. Legion, my fav squadmate, was all for using Reaper Code at the emnd to enhance his people.

Whoa there, I wouldn't call Lazarus an experiment in Synthesis.  It is more an experiment pushing the bounderies of cybernetics.  We are explicitly told Shepard mind is intact and her own.

Now, if such an operation is possible without some technical augmentation of the mind is debatable, but in game we are told otherwise.

[Steelcan]

It's a reaper designed code, not a reaper code. The reapers used the code upgrade to enhance the Geth's abilities, then broadcasted a signal that put them under control. Cutting this signal destroyed the reaper control and the reaper designed upgrades, then Legion uploaded his own code upgrades that he received, but was never put under control because he was too advanced.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Reth Shepherd wrote...
Yeah, he was. However, if you back up a little, to ME2, his position was the exact opposite. This is just my personal opinion, but I actually favor him as an example of 'the only people who like synthesis are indoctrinated'. Legion was originally against using Reaper code and said so on two separate occasions. The whole reason the "heretics" came into existance was because they DID want to use Reaper tech to enhance themselves, while the rest of the Geth (including Legion's programs) did not. Then Legion does an about-face...AFTER being exposed to Reaper tech. Remember the state he was in when we found him about the dreanaught? We have no way of knowing what all was done to him, and his sudden change of opinion about Reaper upgrades is suspect, at best.

True, however I believe he changed his mind because there was a way to help his people achieve what they needed to survive rather than he was turned into a Heretic because heretics supported the Reapers goals, and Legion still doesn't so it's the same Legion as ME2 but with a different outlook due to his people on the verge of extinction.

[Karrie788]

Hate it with a burning passion. To each their own though.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

xAmilli0n wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You don't know it either. As for experiments of these endings always being failures:
Control experiments: yes (biggest being Overlord)
Synthesis experiments: no (biggest being Lazarus)
Also, not all friends were against it. Legion, my fav squadmate, was all for using Reaper Code at the emnd to enhance his people.

Whoa there, I wouldn't call Lazarus an experiment in Synthesis.  It is more an experiment pushing the bounderies of cybernetics.  We are explicitly told Shepard mind is intact and her own.

Now, if such an operation is possible without some technical augmentation of the mind is debatable, but in game we are told otherwise.

In that case, I can't think of a synthesis-like experiment so my point still stands. Thank you.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Steelcan wrote...

It's a reaper designed code, not a reaper code. The reapers used the code upgrade to enhance the Geth's abilities, then broadcasted a signal that put them under control. Cutting this signal destroyed the reaper control and the reaper designed upgrades, then Legion uploaded his own code upgrades that he received, but was never put under control because he was too advanced.

Couldn't have said it better. Bravo, Steelcan.

[DoomsdayDevice]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

More synthesis-is-a-bad-idea foreshadowing:

Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik: Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.

(See previous page for heavy ending foreshadowing in Project Overlord)

Again, Synthesis doesn't plant an AI in your head that will fight for dominance.

You don't know that.
"Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology."
Even if it's just implants, the Reapers will be controlling organics, just like they did Saren.
Look, all three games are chock-full of examples of control and synthesis scenarios gone wrong. There's a reason for that.
Control and synthesis are only advocated by the villains. All your friends and allies tell you there's only one way to defeat the Reapers: to destroy them. There's a reason for that.
You remind me of this:
Bailey: I think all the reports are starting to sink in. You can only live in denial so long.
Shepard: You either wake up or die.
(...)
Bailey: We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.

You don't know it either. As for experiments of these endings always being failures:
Control experiments: yes (biggest being Overlord)
Synthesis experiments: no (biggest being Lazarus)
Also, not all friends were against it. Legion, my fav squadmate, was all for using Reaper Code at the end to enhance his people.

Ah, but here's the difference: The game explains to you through Miranda and EDI that you had no control chip implanted.

Legion may have used Reaper code, but it was repurposed. There's a difference between reverse engineering Reaper technology and letting yourself be implanted with Reaper tech as-is.

As for Legion's feelings on the Reapers: "There will be no more compromises with the old machines." And guess what synthesis is: a compromise with the Reapers.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:52 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Ah, but here's the difference: The game explains to you through Miranda and EDI that you had no control chip implanted.

Legion may have used Reaper code, but it was repurposed. There's a difference between reverse engineering Reaper technology and letting yourself be implanted with Reaper tech.

As for Legion's feelings on the Reapers: "There will be no more compromises with the old machines." And guess what synthesis is: a compromise with the Reapers.

Okay, I'll accept that. Here's my question because I can't think of any: What experiments through the three games involves Synthesis? Overlord doesn't count because the purpose of that experiment was control.

[Steelcan]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's a reaper designed code, not a reaper code. The reapers used the code upgrade to enhance the Geth's abilities, then broadcasted a signal that put them under control. Cutting this signal destroyed the reaper control and the reaper designed upgrades, then Legion uploaded his own code upgrades that he received, but was never put under control because he was too advanced.

Couldn't have said it better. Bravo, Steelcan.

. This really isn't that complicated.......... I don't see why it's such a big deal.

[Steelcan]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Ah, but here's the difference: The game explains to you through Miranda and EDI that you had no control chip implanted.

Legion may have used Reaper code, but it was repurposed. There's a difference between reverse engineering Reaper technology and letting yourself be implanted with Reaper tech.

As for Legion's feelings on the Reapers: "There will be no more compromises with the old machines." And guess what synthesis is: a compromise with the Reapers.

Okay, I'll accept that. Here's my question because I can't think of any: What experiments through the three games involves Synthesis? Overlord doesn't count because the purpose of that experiment was control.

. Arguably Lazarus, but really the only explicit endorsement of synthesis comes from Saren and Glowstick Boy, and boy are they trustworthy

[Reth Shepherd]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Ah, but here's the difference: The game explains to you through Miranda and EDI that you had no control chip implanted.

Legion may have used Reaper code, but it was repurposed. There's a difference between reverse engineering Reaper technology and letting yourself be implanted with Reaper tech.

As for Legion's feelings on the Reapers: "There will be no more compromises with the old machines." And guess what synthesis is: a compromise with the Reapers.

Okay, I'll accept that. Here's my question because I can't think of any: What experiments through the three games involves Synthesis? Overlord doesn't count because the purpose of that experiment was control.

I still think Overlord counts because while the purpose of the experiment might have been control, it was achieved through synthesis. I admit that I might be biased though, given that I believe that Green is control achieved by synthesis. Heh. As for other than that? Hmm

Are we including Reaper experiments? If so, then Saren is a prime example. (And another prime example of control achieved by synthesis.) TIM's forces created at Sanctuary. Again, control achieved by synthesis.

As for non-Reaper-type experiements, the only one I can think of offhand are the zha'til, which actually DID work until the Reapers took them over.