120 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

As the title said, I'd like to know the mage's followers opinion on a hypothetical Circle system completely indipendant from the Chantry, with larger freedom and and organization composed by both mages and non-mages with the role of watch over the mages.
My issue with siding with the mages, or the Chantry, or the templars, is that I don't know what model of society they want to implement after the war. I though that pro-mages would want a complete freedom models (although with rules for mages and stil and organization to watch over them), and I'm not sure if this model could work, and I don't know if it's better of a hypothetical model proposed by the Chantry (a Circle system with larger freedom and severe rules and punishments for the organization with role of watch over the templars). Both this models have issues, and other than their efficiency, I've yet to know what I'm more willing to sacrifice, the impossibility to offer a total security for the common folks in the mage model, or the restraint of freedom (and the possibity of corruption of the watching organization) in the Chantry model.
In the last mages-templars threads, I saw multiple mages follower that aren't completely against an indipendant Circle system, with the organization that has to watch them composed by non-mages and mages. So I was asking myself if this model could be fine with a lot of the mages followers. So I'd like to know your opinion.
Additionaly, I'd like to know the opinion of pro-templars and pro-Chantry about this model, or if they'd be fine with this models in the case of some modifications (like having still some ties with the Chantry, additional rules, etc.) I know that we might not have this models in DA3, but I want to know the opinion of the people who side with  mages, templars and the Chantry on this matter.
Thanks in advance to all of your for your partecipations, and sorry for the long post!

Modifié par hhh89, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:16 .

[Adanu]

Mages have to learn how to handle their talents somewhere. A circle run by mages for mages with Templars being specialized police ONLY within the bounds of city watch or somesuch would actually work with me just fine.

The old CIrcle system? No. No way in hell was that effective.

[Wulfram]

I think Fenris would say that's what they tried in Tevinter.

Of course, Tevinter's a different situation. There's no established tradition of Magister rule in the rest of Thedas.

[The Elder King]

Adanu wrote...

Mages have to learn how to handle their talents somewhere. A circle run by mages for mages with Templars being specialized police ONLY within the bounds of city watch or somesuch would actually work with me just fine.

The old CIrcle system? No. No way in hell was that effective.

I wasn't proposing the old circle system to the mage's followers. I know already that mage's followers wouldn't be under the Chantry, even with larger freedom. And my "police force" in this model, is composed by mages too.

Modifié par hhh89, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:06 .

[GloriousDame]

Separating mages from the rest of society just breeds more resentment.

Since there is a Chantry in nearly every town, I'd like to see a type of "Sunday school"
devoted for mages, run by mages, policed by templars, sponsored by the Chantry.
I don't want to see young mages taken from their families just because they have a
potentially dangerous gift. People should be able choose between sending their mage family
member to a different type of Circle (like the one already mentioned by the OP) or sending
them to the school in town.

So, while I'm all for educating mages on the potential dangers of their powers, I don't see
a load of mages turning to blood magic if they are valued as equals in a society that doesn't
seek to separate them from it because of something they cannot control AND are still being
policed by templars (and known reputable mages like we saw in DA:O).

I don't know...

Modifié par ArinTheirinCousland, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:08 .

[The Elder King]

Wulfram wrote...

I think Fenris would say that's what they tried in Tevinter.

Of course, Tevinter's a different situation. There's no established tradition of Magister rule in the rest of Thedas.

I don't remember that in Tevinter they tried a system like this. I'll read the codex again to find if there are analogies. T

[Wulfram]

It's not the codex, it's IIRC a conversation with Fenris when you take him to the Gallows for the first time.

[The Elder King]

Wulfram wrote...

It's not the codex, it's IIRC a conversation with Fenris when you take him to the Gallows for the first time.

Ah, did he say that in Tevinter they tried an indipendant system? I remember the dialogue in the Gallows, but not this part. Thanks for the info.

[grimkillah]

I prefer a homestead option instead, like Adanu said, "Mages have to learn how to handle their talents somewhere", but both chantry system or independent system alienates mages from the wider community, and give too much shelter to mages so that when faced with real situation, they fail to handle it correctly. Instead I feel mages should continue to live with their family and within their community, and have Templars to live with them as a lifelong tutor. This way mages can actually operate within the larger community and let them face with real situations that they will encounter as they grow and mature. Lets face it real life offer greater temptation than any other situation for mages, if you loves a girl and she does not return the feelings one might use magic, or if your father killed by a bandit, and you seek greater power for vengeance. Such situation isn't often faced inside a closed off circle, and mages will be unprepared when faced, so if a mage can survive real life with the guidance of a Templar, then everyone is better off for it.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

I have a better solution - execute every mage we find.

If possible find a means to detect magic at childbirth and killed it right off, before it can growth to become a serious threat. Its brutal, but by far most effective solution.

[marshalleck]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I have a better solution - execute every mage we find.

If possible find a means to detect magic at childbirth and killed it right off, before it can growth to become a serious threat. Its brutal, but by far most effective solution.

So edgy.

[Xilizhra]

It would have to be independent, significantly less restrictive, and probably set up to let the mages interact more effectively with the world as a whole.

I have a better solution - execute every mage we find.

If possible find a means to detect magic at childbirth and killed it right off, before it can growth to become a serious threat. Its brutal, but by far most effective solution.

So I assume you're Khornate?

[fchopin]

No independent circle, it is either freedom or death for me.

[KainD]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I have a better solution - execute every mage we find.

If possible find a means to detect magic at childbirth and killed it right off, before it can growth to become a serious threat. Its brutal, but by far most effective solution.

Doesn't work, most parents care more for their children than laws ( Isolde ), and would try to shelter them away. They already do it, so there are apostates, but at least those that give their children away know that they are going to the circle and not dying. 

Also mages surviving in a world with that kind of politics are going to be the most twisted psychos you will find, that will torch you to ash on sigh if you pose just a little threat to them, t or make you turn yourself inside out with blood magic just for fun, because they don't owe society anything anyway. 

[General User]

The main virtue of Chantry controlled Circles is that they keep control of mages and magic in international, religious institution. If Circles weren't run by the Chantry they would have to be run by secular lords of Thedas. That means magic and mages would be used for their conflicts, making them all the more destructive. On the other hand, the purpose of the Cirlces is to protect public safety, a job usually done (however imperfectly) by the secular government anyway, so...

The main failing of the Chantry controlled Circles was that the Chantry let the Templar Order have far too much of a free hand for far too long. Once the Mage and Templar Rebellions have been put down, the Circles need to be reformed with more Chantry involvement and oversight, not less. It's the best way to ensure that mages receive as humane treatment as is possible, while the overall public good still takes the highest priority.

Modifié par General User, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:25 .

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Xilizhra wrote...

It would have to be independent, significantly less restrictive, and probably set up to let the mages interact more effectively with the world as a whole.

I have a better solution - execute every mage we find.

If possible find a means to detect magic at childbirth and killed it right off, before it can growth to become a serious threat. Its brutal, but by far most effective solution.

So I assume you're Khornate?

All the way Slaanesh. Sex for the Sex god, porn for the porn throne!

[syllogi]

The two biggest problems mages face outside of the Circle seem to be controlling their abilities when they're young, and falling to demons at any time. So I think a school that has rigorous standards is necessary, even if that means families have to send their young children away. Should that school system be run by the Chantry? I think at this point, they've lost the authority, and the offshoot organization of Templars obviously doesn't have mages best interests at heart either.

So yeah, Thedas needs a Hogswarts.

[Xilizhra]

The main virtue of Chantry controlled Circles is that they keep control of mages and magic in international, religious institution. If Circles weren't run by the Chantry they would have to be run by secular lords of Thedas. That means magic and mages would be used for their conflicts, making them all the more destructive. On the other hand, the purpose of the Cirlces is to protect public safety, a job usually done (however imperfectly) by the secular government anyway, so...

No they wouldn't. They could be their own autonomous, international body.

The main failing of the Chantry controlled Circles was they they let the Templar Order have far too much of a free hand in how they were run for far too long. Once the Mage and Templar Rebellions have been put down, the Circles need to be reformed with more Chantry involvement and oversight, not less. It's the best way to ensure that mages receive as humane treatment as is possible, while the overall public good still takes the highest priority.

The Chantry is just as bad as the templars, except they don't have swords or direct prison guard-ish involvement. But they were the ones who enslaved templars in chains of lyrium addiction, so this whole mess is just as much their fault. And the mages are part of the overall public good; you can't forget that.

[KainD]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

All the way Slaanesh. Sex for the Sex god, porn for the porn throne!

How does a Slaanesh worshiper come up with such solutions is beyond me lol. 

[Plaintiff]

An independant circle is the only kind I support. At the very least, any governing authority should be secular in nature.

The minimum acceptable level of Chantry oversight is zero.

[Zoe]

hhh89 wrote...
In the last mages-templars threads, I saw multiple mages follower that aren't completely against an indipendant Circle system, with the organization that has to watch them composed by non-mages and mages. So I was asking myself if this model could be fine with a lot of the mages followers. So I'd like to know your opinion.

I would be against an independent circle system if it still meant mages who hadn't committed any crime were imprisoned for life.

Modifié par Keriana, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:28 .

[WotanAnubis]

hhh89 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

It's not the codex, it's IIRC a conversation with Fenris when you take him to the Gallows for the first time.

Ah, did he say that in Tevinter they tried an indipendant system? I remember the dialogue in the Gallows, but not this part. Thanks for the info.

I don't think they really tried an independent system. They had Chantry-controlled Circles. It's just that Tevinter had a long history of Mage rule and the Mages were closely tied to the nobility (because they are the nobility). The upstart Chantry in Tevinter didn't have enough power to stop the nobles from basically giving the Mages back their power and turning them back into ruling Magisters once again.

Frankly, I don't think there has ever been a middle ground between Ruling Mages and Oppressed Mages. Though I suppose the Dalish have at least shown that the Ruling Mages system doesn't have to be terrible.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

The main virtue of Chantry controlled Circles is that they keep control of mages and magic in international, religious institution. If Circles weren't run by the Chantry they would have to be run by secular lords of Thedas. That means magic and mages would be used for their conflicts, making them all the more destructive. On the other hand, the purpose of the Cirlces is to protect public safety, a job usually done (however imperfectly) by the secular government anyway, so...

No they wouldn't. They could be their own autonomous, international body.

Even if the various powers Thedas were to create a whole new international body to run the Circles from scratch, the leadership would still have to non-mages with a vested interest in making sure the Circles perform the functions for which they were created, and putting that sort of organization together would mean involving people with very different ideas on how to carry that out (assuming they could be found in the first place).  The Chantry already has that interest plus a singular vision of how to carry it out.

The main failing of the Chantry controlled Circles was they they let the Templar Order have far too much of a free hand in how they were run for far too long. Once the Mage and Templar Rebellions have been put down, the Circles need to be reformed with more Chantry involvement and oversight, not less. It's the best way to ensure that mages receive as humane treatment as is possible, while the overall public good still takes the highest priority.

The Chantry is just as bad as the templars, except they don't have swords or direct prison guard-ish involvement. But they were the ones who enslaved templars in chains of lyrium addiction, so this whole mess is just as much their fault. And the mages are part of the overall public good; you can't forget that.

Mages are only part of the public good when they're controlled.  And the Chantry is the only organization in Thedas with the size, strength, and inclination to make sure all legitimate sides of the mage issue are addressed.

[Xilizhra]

Even if the various powers Thedas were to create a whole new international body to run the Circles from scratch, the leadership would still have to non-mages with a vested interest in making sure the Circles perform the functions for which they were created, and putting that sort of organization together would mean involving people with very different ideas on how to carry that out (assuming they could be found in the first place). The Chantry already has that interest plus a singular vision of how to carry it out.

And the Chantry's vision completely sucks. That's why I'm not using their vision. But my idea was more the mages themselves creating something, possibly with my own Inquisition's help in forming it and providing soldiers for anti-demon protection.

Mages are only part of the public good when they're controlled. And the Chantry is the only organization in Thedas with the size, strength, and inclination to make sure all legitimate sides of the mage issue are addressed.

The Chantry is intensely bigoted and does not have the inclination, nor is it even a legitimate side of the mage issue itself. And I don't think it has the strength to do so anymore either, after this war.

[Wulfram]

Fenris describes the Tevinter system thus

"Once upon a time it was as it was here. The chantry watched the magisters closely for any sign of corruption or weakness. Then it changed. The magisters were permitted to watch over their own, and templars kept only to enforce the law. What happened next was inevitable. The magisters rule again, as powerful as they ever were."

It's not precisely the system you propose, but it's close enough that many would consider equivalent and foresee the same end, I would say.