120 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It would have to be independent, significantly less restrictive, and probably set up to let the mages interact more effectively with the world as a whole.

That's obvious, at least in the model I proposed.

In that case, I'll consider it. Though I can't promise anything else.

Considering that I thought your group would've been against this, this is a success already.

Mages need to be protected from demons as the primary task here, and the main purpose of this would be to prevent demon attacks. I'm not imprisoning mages just for being more powerful than other people; I don't really believe in precrime tactics unless we can actually see the future.

[WotanAnubis]

@Medhia Nox

And yet you assume Alistair's "Let's not ruthlessly hunt down and oppress apostates" stance is going to fill Ferelden with hordes of abominations? When it comes to mages, Alistair isn't exactly blindly pro-freedom like Anders or Morrigan.

Modifié par WotanAnubis, 25 octobre 2012 - 01:40 .

[Medhia Nox]

@WotanAnubis: And where are these apostates learning their magic? All it takes is one like Connor and suddenly you've got demon possessed mages running around - then abominations (those things Uldred was making)

My issue isn't with "freedom" - my issue is with the consequences of letting skin suits for demons run around and ignoring it.

And - what does Alistair know about mages? He's hardly capable of making an informed decision about demon skin suits.

[WotanAnubis]

Medhia Nox wrote...

And - what does Alistair know about mages? He's hardly capable of making an informed decision about demon skin suits.

Alistair was trained to be a Templar. Heck, he was a Templar. He just hadn't quite taken his final vows yet, but he knew pretty much everything there was to know about being a Templar. Certainly enough to teach others how to be Templars.

And you question his knowledge about mages? Seriously?

[Medhia Nox]

@WotanAnubis: Maybe it's because it's the only thing I can agree with Morrigan about - Alistair is dumber than dirt.

Cullen WAS a templar - and he was unsure of what an abomination looked like.

How would Alistair be more informed about mages than Cullen was as a young Templar?

So yes - it is not unreasonable to question Alistair's ability to do anything - let alone judge a "mage" issue.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:00 .

[WotanAnubis]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@WotanAnubis: Maybe it's because it's the only thing I can agree with Morrigan about - Alistair is dumber than dirt.

Cullen WAS a templar - and he was unsure of what an abomination looked like.

How would Alistair be more informed about mages than Cullen was as a young Templar?

So yes - it is not unreasonable to question Alistair's ability to do anything - let alone judge a "mage" issue.

You know who could detect demonic possession? Merrill and Anders.

So, basically, this means that the only people fit to police mages are other mages.

I don't see much of a problem with that, really.

[Medhia Nox]

@WotanAnubis: Despite hating both of them - I would be in total agreement with mages policing mages.

My point is that mages MUST be policed.

Which is why my Inquisitor will be a mage. I SO hope I have Mana Clash again.

[The Elder King]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@WotanAnubis: Despite hating both of them - I would be in total agreement with mages policing mages.

My point is that mages MUST be policed.

Which is why my Inquisitor will be a mage. I SO hope I have Mana Clash again.

Them you have no problem with the model I proposed in the first post?

[MisterJB]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@WotanAnubis: Despite hating both of them - I would be in total agreement with mages policing mages.

My point is that mages MUST be policed.

Ask the elves of Denerim or Kirkwall how well humans policing humans has worked out for them.

[Medhia Nox]

@MisterJB: I'm sorry - are you saying that anarchy is the best option?

@hhh89: Yes, I mostly agree with you.

- There should be a new Harrowing. One where the mage is given as much training as possible to survive it.

- Tranquility should be the punishment for both Blood Magic and mage crimes.

- Templars should be secular mage hunters used by the nations of Thedas.

- The Chantry should work very hard to be involved in the lives of mages. Support mages working in hospitals - I'm sure the Primal schools could achieve more than violence - support mages in closing tears in the Veil - etc. etc.

But I'm non-negotiable that young mages must be isolated - though I would obviously allow families to visit. In fact - I'm not sure why a new town doesn't spring up at the site of the docks for the Circle Tower. Mage's families can live there - and sell the goods mages make along with more mundane forms of commerce.

Lyrium should be traded under the watchful eye of the Lucrosians (sp?) and their mundane families.

All mage crimes should be considered pre-meditated. Constant abuse of magical power should result in first community service, then imprisonment and finally Tranquility.

And - upon taking the Harrowing - mages must choose between 1) Working for the Circle or 2) Submitting to a Phylactery.

[Vandicus]

WotanAnubis wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@WotanAnubis: Maybe it's because it's the only thing I can agree with Morrigan about - Alistair is dumber than dirt.

Cullen WAS a templar - and he was unsure of what an abomination looked like.

How would Alistair be more informed about mages than Cullen was as a young Templar?

So yes - it is not unreasonable to question Alistair's ability to do anything - let alone judge a "mage" issue.

You know who could detect demonic possession? Merrill and Anders.

So, basically, this means that the only people fit to police mages are other mages.

I don't see much of a problem with that, really.

That's how the modern Tevinter Imperium came about. Literally. Fenris, Gallows, conversation about mages self-policing when the Chantry attempted to use a less restrictive system.

[MisterJB]

Not at all. Only that mages policing mages lends to abuses against mundanes.
I'm not opposed to mages helping to police mages so long as mundanes with magic dispelling abilities, Templars, are involved in it as well.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:36 .

[General User]

I think the idea is that no group can successfully police itself.

In other words, if Templars shouldn't be in charge of policing Templars, and merchants shouldn't be the ones in charge of policing merchants, and the nobility shouldn't be the ones in charge of policing the nobility, why then would anyone think that mages should be in charge of policing mage?

Modifié par General User, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:38 .

[hoorayforicecream]

I've seen people offer the "Hogwarts" model repeatedly, but I don't think it would work. The entire wizarding world was brought to its knees by about a dozen evil wizards working together. I don't think a system that fragile would hold up.

As for mages policing mages... It would be fine for the mages. It'd be pretty bad for anyone else.

[Medhia Nox]

@MisterJB: I see - and I largely agree.

It's why I support the Templars existing as a secular order. Not 'policing' mages - which as we know is open to abuse - but punishing criminal mages of the nation (whichever it may be).

For mundane people to NOT keep their ace up the sleeve when combating mages - would be ludicrous. It's the only thing that keeps common people free from mage tyranny.

((If there ever is a game in Tevinter - I think being a mage should be prohibited - so all the mage supremacists can get a taste of what mage rule would likely degenerate into on Thedas))

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Not at all. Only that mages policing mages lends to abuses against mundanes.
I'm not opposed to mages helping to police mages so long as mundanes with magic dispelling abilities, Templars, are involved in it as well.

In every models I proposed, the organization you should watch over the mages should have non-mages with templars abilities.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

I think the idea is that no group can successfully police itself.

In other words, if Templars shouldn't be in charge of policing Templars, and merchants shouldn't be the ones in charge of policing merchants, and the nobility shouldn't be the ones in charge of policing the nobility, why then would anyone think that mages should be in charge of policing mage?

"Mage" is a biological factor, not a job.

((If there ever is a game in Tevinter - I think being a mage should be
prohibited - so all the mage supremacists can get a taste of what mage
rule would likely degenerate into on Thedas))

DA3 has a place in Tevinter, and the mage class isn't prohibited.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:42 .

[The Elder King]

General User, hoorayforicecream: the police force will be composed by non- mages with templars abilities too.

[syllogi]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I've seen people offer the "Hogwarts" model repeatedly, but I don't think it would work. The entire wizarding world was brought to its knees by about a dozen evil wizards working together. I don't think a system that fragile would hold up.

As for mages policing mages... It would be fine for the mages. It'd be pretty bad for anyone else.

Well, the idea would be kids going to a boarding school run by mages as soon as they were identified, but obviously there would have to be more rules in place than the Hogwarts system of "do whatever on your summer break, although we'll get mad if you do any magic around muggles while you're underaged."  

Mages in Thedas need support of some sort, and guidance, at all times, against the threat of possession.  It makes sense to have them live together and work together, in some manner.

[hoorayforicecream]

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's why I support the Templars existing as a secular order. Not 'policing' mages - which as we know is open to abuse - but punishing criminal mages of the nation (whichever it may be).

Even if it was a secular order, there's nothing to stop them from abusing their charges like they have in the past. Just like there's nothing to stop free mages from taking power away from the mundane folks and starting a new imperium (or just getting absorbed back into the imperium).

I'd note that the societies that seem to coexist with mages (Rivain, Dalish, etc.) seem to have very few of them. Among the Dalish, for example, there's only ever two mages per clan at most - the Keeper, and the First. I don't know how often the Chasind deal with their mages, but Rivain's not a large country, and a large number of the population is part of the Qun. I doubt that the Qun allow many of the real hedge mages/seers to actively practice... I expect that they'd probably either start clapping them in chains and sewing their mouths up, or start killing.

[hoorayforicecream]

hhh89 wrote...

General User, hoorayforicecream: the police force will be composed by non- mages with templars abilities too.

Who do they answer to? How much power do they have?

If they have less power than the mages, then it is an ineffective force that is rather pointless.

If they have more power than the mages, then it's really no different than the current system, except possibly secular. There is still nothing to stop them from abusing the mages.

Edit: To avoid a triple post...

syllogi wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I've seen people offer the "Hogwarts" model repeatedly, but I don't think it would work. The entire wizarding world was brought to its knees by about a dozen evil wizards working together. I don't think a system that fragile would hold up.

As for mages policing mages... It would be fine for the mages. It'd be pretty bad for anyone else.

Well, the idea would be kids going to a boarding school run by mages as soon as they were identified, but obviously there would have to be more rules in place than the Hogwarts system of "do whatever on your summer break, although we'll get mad if you do any magic around muggles while you're underaged."  

Mages in Thedas need support of some sort, and guidance, at all times, against the threat of possession.  It makes sense to have them live together and work together, in some manner.

You mean like the circles are supposed to be now? That's basically what they are.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:51 .

[Xilizhra]

If they have more power than the mages, then it's really no different than the current system, except possibly secular. There is still nothing to stop them from abusing the mages.

The point is for equality. Equal power.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

If they have more power than the mages, then it's really no different than the current system, except possibly secular. There is still nothing to stop them from abusing the mages.

The point is for equality. Equal power.

If equal power is the point then all mages should be forced to wear qunari leashes and all nonmages should own a control rod.

[hoorayforicecream]

Xilizhra wrote...

If they have more power than the mages, then it's really no different than the current system, except possibly secular. There is still nothing to stop them from abusing the mages.

The point is for equality. Equal power.

Then whoever betrays the other first will win.

[The Elder King]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

General User, hoorayforicecream: the police force will be composed by non- mages with templars abilities too.

Who do they answer to? How much power do they have?

If they have less power than the mages, then it is an ineffective force that is rather pointless.

If they have more power than the mages, then it's really no different than the current system, except possibly secular. There is still nothing to stop them from abusing the mages.

They'd have the same power. Do you think that's not possible?