120 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they have more power than the mages, then it's really no different than the current system, except possibly secular. There is still nothing to stop them from abusing the mages.

The point is for equality. Equal power.

If equal power is the point then all mages should be forced to wear qunari leashes and all nonmages should own a control rod.

You're being obtuse. Equal political power in the Circle institution.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilihzhra: So that would mean that all mages should be made Tranquil.

Since we "do" have a way of making mages non-magic... but we don't have a way of making non-mages magical.

Mages - by their very nature - imbalance a power structure. The fact that it's "not their fault" is inadmissible.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilihzhra: So that would mean that all mages should be made Tranquil.

Since we "do" have a way of making mages non-magic... but we don't have a way of making non-mages magical.

Mages - by their very nature - imbalance a power structure. The fact that it's "not their fault" is inadmissible.

When we do have a way of making everyone magical, I'll take that. Tranquility is off the table regardless, as is the qunari atrocity, so we have to adapt from there.

[Nerevar-as]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's why I support the Templars existing as a secular order. Not 'policing' mages - which as we know is open to abuse - but punishing criminal mages of the nation (whichever it may be).

Even if it was a secular order, there's nothing to stop them from abusing their charges like they have in the past. Just like there's nothing to stop free mages from taking power away from the mundane folks and starting a new imperium (or just getting absorbed back into the imperium).

I'd note that the societies that seem to coexist with mages (Rivain, Dalish, etc.) seem to have very few of them. Among the Dalish, for example, there's only ever two mages per clan at most - the Keeper, and the First. I don't know how often the Chasind deal with their mages, but Rivain's not a large country, and a large number of the population is part of the Qun. I doubt that the Qun allow many of the real hedge mages/seers to actively practice... I expect that they'd probably either start clapping them in chains and sewing their mouths up, or start killing.

Actually the Dalish have more than 2 mages, the girl in Origins mentioned having to compete with various others for the First position. Logically they are forced to learn how to control their magic too. If I remember Merrill correctly, it looks they give talented kids to toher clans if they are lacking, or maybe the Keeper doesn´t find any of his/her own clan suitable.

Qunari on the other sde are overparanoid. Ketojan´s ward would try to kill Hawke for being sibling to a mage, so I´d say not only Saarebas have it bad there.

[hoorayforicecream]

hhh89 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

General User, hoorayforicecream: the police force will be composed by non- mages with templars abilities too.

Who do they answer to? How much power do they have?

If they have less power than the mages, then it is an ineffective force that is rather pointless.

If they have more power than the mages, then it's really no different than the current system, except possibly secular. There is still nothing to stop them from abusing the mages.

They'd have the same power. Do you think that's not possible?

I don't. Look at the American political system. Two parties that are roughly equal in power... but that's only over time. The power shifts back and forth all the time. It's not feasible to believe that they can be evenly matched at all times without some sort of third party oversight that's both sides answer to. It's even harder when you consider that mages are born, not trained, and you can't retire from being a mage. You still need to recruit, train, and replace templars. It isn't feasible.

And like I said earlier... if they are (by some miracle) evenly matched, then the first one to betray the other will win. The element of surprise will unbalance the equality, and somebody's gonna lose. It might not be a very clean fight, but somebody will lose, and the balance of power will shift toward the winner.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they have more power than the mages, then it's really no different than the current system, except possibly secular. There is still nothing to stop them from abusing the mages.

The point is for equality. Equal power.

If equal power is the point then all mages should be forced to wear qunari leashes and all nonmages should own a control rod.

You're being obtuse. Equal political power in the Circle institution.

Just illustrating the absurdity of mages and non mages ever being equals.  They aren't and never can be.  Checks and balances are the proper way to divide political power, not some juvenile notion of "equality."

Modifié par General User, 25 octobre 2012 - 03:08 .

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they have more power than the mages, then it's really no different than the current system, except possibly secular. There is still nothing to stop them from abusing the mages.

The point is for equality. Equal power.

If equal power is the point then all mages should be forced to wear qunari leashes and all nonmages should own a control rod.

You're being obtuse. Equal political power in the Circle institution.

Just illustrating the absurdity of mages and non mages ever being equals.  They aren't and never can be.  Checks and balances are the proper way to divide political power, not some juvenile notion of "equality."

And so there can be, but not the Tranquilty or leashing that you mentioned.

[The Elder King]

hoorayforicecream wrote...


I don't. Look at the American political system. Two parties that are roughly equal in power... but that's only over time. The power shifts back and forth all the time. It's not feasible to believe that they can be evenly matched at all times without some sort of third party oversight that's both sides answer to. It's even harder when you consider that mages are born, not trained, and you can't retire from being a mage. You still need to recruit, train, and replace templars. It isn't feasible.
And like I said earlier... if they are (by some miracle) evenly matched, then the first one to betray the other will win. The element of surprise will unbalance the equality, and somebody's gonna lose. It might not be a very clean fight, but somebody will lose, and the balance of power will shift toward the winner.

But the members of the organization will have the same goal, regardless if they are mages and non- mages. Why they would have to fight each other?

Modifié par hhh89, 25 octobre 2012 - 03:12 .

[Medhia Nox]

@General User: You're arguing the concept with a mage supremacist - or someone acting the part (I would hope).

Anything restricting Xilizhra from abusing her powers is "evil".

[Vandicus]

hhh89 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...


I don't. Look at the American political system. Two parties that are roughly equal in power... but that's only over time. The power shifts back and forth all the time. It's not feasible to believe that they can be evenly matched at all times without some sort of third party oversight that's both sides answer to. It's even harder when you consider that mages are born, not trained, and you can't retire from being a mage. You still need to recruit, train, and replace templars. It isn't feasible.
And like I said earlier... if they are (by some miracle) evenly matched, then the first one to betray the other will win. The element of surprise will unbalance the equality, and somebody's gonna lose. It might not be a very clean fight, but somebody will lose, and the balance of power will shift toward the winner.

But the members of the organization will have the same goal, regardless if they are mages and non- mages. Why they would have to fight each other?

Mundanes have a natural incentive NOT to let the Tevinter Imperium happen. The mages appointed to the oversight committee have the TEMPTATION of betraying the purpose of that committee in order to gain personal power. Conflict of interest.

[hoorayforicecream]

hhh89 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...


I don't. Look at the American political system. Two parties that are roughly equal in power... but that's only over time. The power shifts back and forth all the time. It's not feasible to believe that they can be evenly matched at all times without some sort of third party oversight that's both sides answer to. It's even harder when you consider that mages are born, not trained, and you can't retire from being a mage. You still need to recruit, train, and replace templars. It isn't feasible.
And like I said earlier... if they are (by some miracle) evenly matched, then the first one to betray the other will win. The element of surprise will unbalance the equality, and somebody's gonna lose. It might not be a very clean fight, but somebody will lose, and the balance of power will shift toward the winner.

But the members of the organization will have the same goal, regardless if they are mages and non- mages. Why they would have to fight each other?

Because at any given point, either side will always believe that they have the right solution. People who have power don't like relinquishing it, and in this case the power involves the killing of members of one group or the other. Some percentage of the mages will become possessed by demons and become abominations, and will have to be killed, and the mages aren't going to like being killed. There will almost always be some collateral damage, which causes an unbalancing of power.

[Medhia Nox]

@hoorayforicecream: Yes - but real people aren't always moved by their deep passions. In fact - most real people suppress their deepest passions in place of a much more common lifestyle.

Just have each Circle "owned" by the nation it is in.. and have the Lucrosians, who would be moved by money - not mage rights - have a faction of mages with the Anti-Magic school of spells working beside templars.

Just because we're arguing distilled viewpoints doesn't meant real people would.

The mages would be moved by profit and power in the secular world - and that's how you can control them better.

Templars and Mages should always be a checks and balances... but the Templars should not govern the mages - nor should the mages have total autonomy.

They should all be subject to the rule of the presiding nation - be it Ferelden, Orlais, or whatever.

[hoorayforicecream]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@hoorayforicecream: Yes - but real people aren't always moved by their deep passions. In fact - most real people suppress their deepest passions in place of a much more common lifestyle.

Just have each Circle "owned" by the nation it is in.. and have the Lucrosians, who would be moved by money - not mage rights - have a faction of mages with the Anti-Magic school of spells working beside templars.

Just because we're arguing distilled viewpoints doesn't meant real people would.

The mages would be moved by profit and power in the secular world - and that's how you can control them better.

Templars and Mages should always be a checks and balances... but the Templars should not govern the mages - nor should the mages have total autonomy.

They should all be subject to the rule of the presiding nation - be it Ferelden, Orlais, or whatever.

How does the presiding nation enforce their rule over either the templars or the mages?

[The Elder King]

Vandicus wrote...


Mundanes have a natural incentive NOT to let the Tevinter Imperium happen. The mages appointed to the oversight committee have the TEMPTATION of betraying the purpose of that committee in order to gain personal power. Conflict of interest.

In the model I proposed Circle system is stil present, with an organization to watch them, but indipendant from the Chantry.
What model would you propose? I proposed a variant of this model for the followers of the Chantry or the templars in my first post. What is your opinion about it?

Modifié par hhh89, 25 octobre 2012 - 03:39 .

[Vandicus]

hhh89 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...


Mundanes have a natural incentive NOT to let the Tevinter Imperium happen. The mages appointed to the oversight committee have the TEMPTATION of betraying the purpose of that committee in order to gain personal power. Conflict of interest.

In the model I proposed Circle system is stil present, with an organization to watch them, but indipendant from the Chantry.
What model would you propose? I proposed a variant of this model for the followers of the Chantry or the templars in my first post. What is your opinion.

The model I propose is rather similar. Except that, while the mages would have members in the oversight organization, they could never rise to the position of heading the organization at the Circle level, much less having a mage be head of the oversight organization. 

The concern regarding having any oversight organization having powers over one group is that they'd abuse that power or overreact, much like some members of the Templar Order do. Part of the reason why Drakon made the Inquisition subordinate in the first place was because he didn't want the extreme attitude of the Inquisition at the time(exterminate mages) to carry over into a system that would allegedly allow mages and mundanes to live in peace. In other words, the militant oversight organization will also need a civilian group to ensure that corruption doesn't occur. Mages can play a more prominent role in this civilian organization because the civilian organization is mostly there to prevent abuse of power by the militant one, and in reality could not be used to cause a mage takeover.

[Darth Krytie]

I wouldn't be opposed to a self-regulating system. Though, there are so many touchy issues involved. How to balance safety with basic rights? I think the reason Thedas is where it is now is because there's no easy or good answer to the problem.

[The Elder King]

Vandicus wrote...


The model I propose is rather similar. Except that, while the mages would have members in the oversight organization, they could never rise to the position of heading the organization at the Circle level, much less having a mage be head of the oversight organization. 

The concern regarding having any oversight organization having powers over one group is that they'd abuse that power or overreact, much like some members of the Templar Order do. Part of the reason why Drakon made the Inquisition subordinate in the first place was because he didn't want the extreme attitude of the Inquisition at the time(exterminate mages) to carry over into a system that would allegedly allow mages and mundanes to live in peace. In other words, the militant oversight organization will also need a civilian group to ensure that corruption doesn't occur. Mages can play a more prominent role in this civilian organization because the civilian organization is mostly there to prevent abuse of power by the militant one, and in reality could not be used to cause a mage takeover.

So in the model you propose, the mages could be member of the oversight organization, but not lead it. Instead, they could have a more prominent role in the civilian organization that will watch over the oversight organization?
About the phrase "they could never rise to the position of heading the organization at the Circle level", what  do you mean? That there can't be First Enchanters?

[Vandicus]

hhh89 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...


The model I propose is rather similar. Except that, while the mages would have members in the oversight organization, they could never rise to the position of heading the organization at the Circle level, much less having a mage be head of the oversight organization. 

The concern regarding having any oversight organization having powers over one group is that they'd abuse that power or overreact, much like some members of the Templar Order do. Part of the reason why Drakon made the Inquisition subordinate in the first place was because he didn't want the extreme attitude of the Inquisition at the time(exterminate mages) to carry over into a system that would allegedly allow mages and mundanes to live in peace. In other words, the militant oversight organization will also need a civilian group to ensure that corruption doesn't occur. Mages can play a more prominent role in this civilian organization because the civilian organization is mostly there to prevent abuse of power by the militant one, and in reality could not be used to cause a mage takeover.

So in the model you propose, the mages could be member of the oversight organization, but not lead it. Instead, they could have a more prominent role in the civilian organization that will watch over the oversight organization?
About the phrase "they could never rise to the position of heading the organization at the Circle level", what  do you mean? That there can't be First Enchanters?

I mean that the "Knight-Commander" equivalent can never be a mage. Anything below that can be fair game for a mage, but the rank of Knight-Commander and above should be mundanes.

First Enchanters are fine and a good aid to running the Circle systems already.

[The Elder King]

Darth Krytie wrote...

I wouldn't be opposed to a self-regulating system. Though, there are so many touchy issues involved. How to balance safety with basic rights? I think the reason Thedas is where it is now is because there's no easy or good answer to the problem.

That's my main issue on choosing  model (in my first post I proposed three different ones, though two are similar), and choosing a side.

[The Elder King]

Vandicus wrote...



I mean that the "Knight-Commander" equivalent can never be a mage. Anything below that can be fair game for a mage, but the rank of Knight-Commander and above should be mundanes.

First Enchanters are fine and a good aid to running the Circle systems already.

The KC equivalen is the leader of the oversight organization, right?
If this is balanced by mages having a prominent role in the civilian organization who watch and control the oversight organization, it's not a big deal. Though how the civilian org will execute the rules on corrupt members of the oversight organization? Through other members of the oversight organization?

[Vandicus]

hhh89 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...



I mean that the "Knight-Commander" equivalent can never be a mage. Anything below that can be fair game for a mage, but the rank of Knight-Commander and above should be mundanes.

First Enchanters are fine and a good aid to running the Circle systems already.

The KC equivalen is the leader of the oversight organization, right?
If this is balanced by mages having a prominent role in the civilian organization who watch and control the oversight organization, it's not a big deal. Though how the civilian org will execute the rules on corrupt members of the oversight organization? Through other members of the oversight organization?

The way the militant organization is controlled now is one possibility(control of the lyrium supply). There is a fundamental problem of dealing with any militant organization in that the power is of an official sort, and not some sort've direct control. If the US army in our real world were to decide that it wasn't interested in listening to our political leaders, there is actually very little that can be done about it. The ultimate hope would be that there are more good people in the militant oversight organization than bad, and that the civilian organization can give the go-ahead for the good ones to remove the bad ones from power(if a bad templar has achieved superior rank) or to give orders to discipline unruly members.

*EDIT


The KC is the local authority. For all intents and purposes, KC Meredith had authority in the Kirkwall situation. She is actually outranked though, by higher ranking templars, but those templars aren't local. Control of the militant organization of an entire Circle is so localized because of distance such that a mage KC would not have too much difficultly in secretly seizing control of a Circle.

Modifié par Vandicus, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:13 .

[Realmzmaster]

Freedom while a noble ideal becomes problematic when dealing with mages. A system like Tevinter can happen where the mages (magisters rule) and oppress the mundanes and slavery flourishes. All types of magic are permitted including blood magic much to the dismay of the mundanes and slaves.
Or you end up with the other extreme mages are imprisoned and kept under constant watch.

No matter what system is put in place it is open to abuse. There must be a way to check the power of mages.

Many are against mage children being removed from their parents. I can understand why. The problem lies in that mage children can inadvertently lay waste to a whole village in their sleep. Mundane children cannot do that. No even talking about possession.

Wynne relates the story of being tormented by the older brother of the family that took her in. She got made on day at the teasing and set the boy on fire. Luckily she only burned his hair and eyebrows, but much worst could have happened. Teasing between children is not uncommon. So how does a village protect itself from that possibility.
Many mage children abilities manifest at different times. It is not the child's fault, but that is a pretty hard defense when one looks out the door and the village is missing.

The Tevinter Iwould recorded any family that had magic in its line that way those families could be monitored for mage children and safeguards could be put in place.

The Hawkes knew since Malcolm was a mage the possibility of their children being mages was great. I am sure Malcolm put in the proper safeguards. The problem is that a mundane could carry the magic potential and marry another mundane with the same potential.

The possibility of having a mage child becomes significant. If the lines are not traced no one will know including the parents.

So a way of tracing the magical line must be in place. Along with checks and balances.

[garrusfan1]

Truthfully I always thought they could have the mages train at a circle type place when they were young and when they get to a certain age and have gotten to a certain point in their training they could go home and live with everyone else. And maybe have someone come by to check on the once in a while. I always thought that this would cause less blood magic and less mages being possessed by demons because with less stress and not being told your evil and an abomination all the time would help them

[Sharn01]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's why I support the Templars existing as a secular order. Not 'policing' mages - which as we know is open to abuse - but punishing criminal mages of the nation (whichever it may be).

Even if it was a secular order, there's nothing to stop them from abusing their charges like they have in the past. Just like there's nothing to stop free mages from taking power away from the mundane folks and starting a new imperium (or just getting absorbed back into the imperium).

I'd note that the societies that seem to coexist with mages (Rivain, Dalish, etc.) seem to have very few of them. Among the Dalish, for example, there's only ever two mages per clan at most - the Keeper, and the First. I don't know how often the Chasind deal with their mages, but Rivain's not a large country, and a large number of the population is part of the Qun. I doubt that the Qun allow many of the real hedge mages/seers to actively practice... I expect that they'd probably either start clapping them in chains and sewing their mouths up, or start killing.

There is more then two Dalish mages per clan,the Halla attender was a mage and I am sure there where others.  The Dalish clans suffered from the same problems that the cities in both DA games did in that the population was much higher then the actual number of people you encounter.  I find it odd that people assume that they meet every single member of a dalish clan when they go there, but are ok with only seeing maybe a hundred NPC's in a city with thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people living in it. 

It's probably the same mentality that when they meet a human npc that is a jerk, that npc is a jerk, when they meet a non-human npc that is a jerk, all members of that race must be blamed and labeled jerks.

[Vandicus]

Sharn01 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's why I support the Templars existing as a secular order. Not 'policing' mages - which as we know is open to abuse - but punishing criminal mages of the nation (whichever it may be).

Even if it was a secular order, there's nothing to stop them from abusing their charges like they have in the past. Just like there's nothing to stop free mages from taking power away from the mundane folks and starting a new imperium (or just getting absorbed back into the imperium).

I'd note that the societies that seem to coexist with mages (Rivain, Dalish, etc.) seem to have very few of them. Among the Dalish, for example, there's only ever two mages per clan at most - the Keeper, and the First. I don't know how often the Chasind deal with their mages, but Rivain's not a large country, and a large number of the population is part of the Qun. I doubt that the Qun allow many of the real hedge mages/seers to actively practice... I expect that they'd probably either start clapping them in chains and sewing their mouths up, or start killing.

There is more then two Dalish mages per clan,the Halla attender was a mage and I am sure there where others.  The Dalish clans suffered from the same problems that the cities in both DA games did in that the population was much higher then the actual number of people you encounter.  I find it odd that people assume that they meet every single member of a dalish clan when they go there, but are ok with only seeing maybe a hundred NPC's in a city with thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people living in it. 

It's probably the same mentality that when they meet a human npc that is a jerk, that npc is a jerk, when they meet a non-human npc that is a jerk, all members of that race must be blamed and labeled jerks.

So we should expect Dalish to have a disproportionately high number of mages? Also the dialog we get from the elves imply very very low population numbers. Losing 4 hunters is a substantial loss to them. I'd be surprised if there were more than a couple hundred Dalish per clan.


*EDIT

Your statements smack of "All you humans are racist!".

We meet plenty of dwarven and elven jerks. Has anyone gone around and labeled the entire population of either jerks?

Modifié par Vandicus, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:40 .