120 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthLaxian]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

I have a better solution - execute every mage we find.

If possible find a means to detect magic at childbirth and killed it right off, before it can growth to become a serious threat. Its brutal, but by far most effective solution.

sorry for saying it like that, but:

maybe your parents should have killed you after birth...honestly such oppinions (note: i am NOT against abortion when a fetus does not have a "mind" of its' own and is just a - rappidly - growing bunch of cells!)...how can you justify killing somebody just for being born different?

you might have felt right at home in the germany of my great-grandparents ruled by the ****s who thought along those lines as well...being different was bad back then, and i can honestly say, that i will fight to the death against people trying to bring something similar back (or even thinking about doing something like that!)...

and do not justify it with the greater good!

children are the very deffinition of INNOCENT (they have not commited any crimes or done some other wrong stuff) so they should not be punished (or even killed)

the greater good can only be "used" as a justification if the one commiting a crime is aware what he is doing and IMHO only if he can not be stopped otherwise then killing him/her or if keeping him/her alive is more dangerous then just putting them to death (like say: if hitler had survived keeping him alive and imprisoned forever would not have worked out, as he had many people who would have loved to free him or cause any number of troubles)

well, back to topic:

yes, grant - all - the circles autonomy and use the templar only as support for the mages policing themselfes and as protectors for cities etc.!

make magic-education mandatory, but do not seperate mages from anyone else and allow them to teach themselves (like father hawke did and like the chasind and the elves do)...make a harrowing mandatory - at a certain age - if the mage wants to strike out on his own, in order to asure that they can resist demons, but do NOT let the templars handle it, let mages do it and make sure that the education is at least somewhat on the level (provide teaching materials and write down a curiculum of spells etc. a mage has to know)

greetings LAX

[The Elder King]

Vandicus wrote...



The way the militant organization is controlled now is one possibility(control of the lyrium supply). There is a fundamental problem of dealing with any militant organization in that the power is of an official sort, and not some sort've direct control. If the US army in our real world were to decide that it wasn't interested in listening to our political leaders, there is actually very little that can be done about it. The ultimate hope would be that there are more good people in the militant oversight organization than bad, and that the civilian organization can give the go-ahead for the good ones to remove the bad ones from power(if a bad templar has achieved superior rank) or to give orders to discipline unruly members.

*EDIT


The KC is the local authority. For all intents and purposes, KC Meredith had authority in the Kirkwall situation. She is actually outranked though, by higher ranking templars, but those templars aren't local. Control of the militant organization of an entire Circle is so localized because of distance such that a mage KC would not have too much difficultly in secretly seizing control of a Circle.

About the first part, yeah, I agree with you opinion. Maybe trying to recruit in the organization people with a mroe opened mindset would help, though in the end no system will give a perfect solution. Problems might occur in every system. The best thing to do (in my opinion) is making a system with the higher chances of resolving problems.
About the edit, what do you thing of a local oversight and civialian organization, as we described in the other posts, and a central group composed by the highest ranking members of both?

[Sharn01]

Vandicus wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's why I support the Templars existing as a secular order. Not 'policing' mages - which as we know is open to abuse - but punishing criminal mages of the nation (whichever it may be).

Even if it was a secular order, there's nothing to stop them from abusing their charges like they have in the past. Just like there's nothing to stop free mages from taking power away from the mundane folks and starting a new imperium (or just getting absorbed back into the imperium).

I'd note that the societies that seem to coexist with mages (Rivain, Dalish, etc.) seem to have very few of them. Among the Dalish, for example, there's only ever two mages per clan at most - the Keeper, and the First. I don't know how often the Chasind deal with their mages, but Rivain's not a large country, and a large number of the population is part of the Qun. I doubt that the Qun allow many of the real hedge mages/seers to actively practice... I expect that they'd probably either start clapping them in chains and sewing their mouths up, or start killing.

There is more then two Dalish mages per clan,the Halla attender was a mage and I am sure there where others.  The Dalish clans suffered from the same problems that the cities in both DA games did in that the population was much higher then the actual number of people you encounter.  I find it odd that people assume that they meet every single member of a dalish clan when they go there, but are ok with only seeing maybe a hundred NPC's in a city with thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people living in it. 

It's probably the same mentality that when they meet a human npc that is a jerk, that npc is a jerk, when they meet a non-human npc that is a jerk, all members of that race must be blamed and labeled jerks.

So we should expect Dalish to have a disproportionately high number of mages? Also the dialog we get from the elves imply very very low population numbers. Losing 4 hunters is a substantial loss to them. I'd be surprised if there were more than a couple hundred Dalish per clan.

That is about what I would expect from a dalish clan as well, a couple hundred, you only meet a couple dozen at best though and most of them don't have dialogue. 

I don't believe that there are huge numbers of mages in each clan, but saying that every dalish clan has exactly two or three and that is all they have is just as rediculous of a claim as saying there are huge numbers of mages.  I am sure some clans only have two or three mages, I am sure other clans have more then that, and extra mages will most likely move to clans that are lacking if the need arises.

We do know that Lanaya was in competition with at least a couple other mages to be her keeper's second, I highly doubt the clan murders those who are not up to the task, the game has already given us evidence that they don't for those that would make such a ridiculous claim.

Modifié par Sharn01, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:46 .

[Maria Caliban]

Xilizhra wrote...

DA3 has a place in Tevinter, and the mage class isn't prohibited.

We don't know if DA 3 will take place in Tevinter. We just know that some of the monsters are Tevinter in origin. Likewise, we fought Qunari in DA:O and DA II, but I wouldn't say we were in Saherone.

[Vandicus]

hhh89 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...



The way the militant organization is controlled now is one possibility(control of the lyrium supply). There is a fundamental problem of dealing with any militant organization in that the power is of an official sort, and not some sort've direct control. If the US army in our real world were to decide that it wasn't interested in listening to our political leaders, there is actually very little that can be done about it. The ultimate hope would be that there are more good people in the militant oversight organization than bad, and that the civilian organization can give the go-ahead for the good ones to remove the bad ones from power(if a bad templar has achieved superior rank) or to give orders to discipline unruly members.

*EDIT


The KC is the local authority. For all intents and purposes, KC Meredith had authority in the Kirkwall situation. She is actually outranked though, by higher ranking templars, but those templars aren't local. Control of the militant organization of an entire Circle is so localized because of distance such that a mage KC would not have too much difficultly in secretly seizing control of a Circle.

About the first part, yeah, I agree with you opinion. Maybe trying to recruit in the organization people with a mroe opened mindset would help, though in the end no system will give a perfect solution. Problems might occur in every system. The best thing to do (in my opinion) is making a system with the higher chances of resolving problems.
About the edit, what do you thing of a local oversight and civialian organization, as we described in the other posts, and a central group composed by the highest ranking members of both?

Well the recruitment for templars already seem to be from the general population. The way in which they are trained just needs to be less paranoia inducing.


Localizing the system has some problems regarding allowing individual people(in this case kings or nobles) make dramatic changes to the system based on the popular opinion of their people or if something strikes them as morally questionable. I feel it should be international to maintain a common reliable system. Where the system deviates too dramatically, such as in Tevinter where it became too lax, or in Kirkwall where the KC became too powerful and too strict, the system falls apart.

A straightforward balancing of power, like say make 7 seats for mundanes and 7 seats for mages where they vote on anything has the issues that hoorayforicecream outlined. Its far too easy for whichever side takes the initiative to seize complete control. That's why I feel the power should be divided up with a system where mundanes have more direct influence in the militant organization and mages have more influence in the civilian one, rather than an organization which controls both and attempts to divide power equally.

[The Elder King]

Vandicus wrote...


Localizing the system has some problems regarding allowing individual people(in this case kings or nobles) make dramatic changes to the system based on the popular opinion of their people or if something strikes them as morally questionable. I feel it should be international to maintain a common reliable system. Where the system deviates too dramatically, such as in Tevinter where it became too lax, or in Kirkwall where the KC became too powerful and too strict, the system falls apart.

A straightforward balancing of power, like say make 7 seats for mundanes and 7 seats for mages where they vote on anything has the issues that hoorayforicecream outlined. Its far too easy for whichever side takes the initiative to seize complete control. That's why I feel the power should be divided up with a system where mundanes have more direct influence in the militant organization and mages have more influence in the civilian one, rather than an organization which controls both and attempts to divide power equally.

I wasn't saying this shouldn't happen. The local system I suggested shouldn't have the power to change the rules. I emant that there should be a higher place  composed of both groups that takes decision in dererminate topics (not the control of the oversight organization, but some general rules that during the decades and centuries might need to be modified) . Though the are the problems earlier presented.

[Vandicus]

hhh89 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...


Localizing the system has some problems regarding allowing individual people(in this case kings or nobles) make dramatic changes to the system based on the popular opinion of their people or if something strikes them as morally questionable. I feel it should be international to maintain a common reliable system. Where the system deviates too dramatically, such as in Tevinter where it became too lax, or in Kirkwall where the KC became too powerful and too strict, the system falls apart.

A straightforward balancing of power, like say make 7 seats for mundanes and 7 seats for mages where they vote on anything has the issues that hoorayforicecream outlined. Its far too easy for whichever side takes the initiative to seize complete control. That's why I feel the power should be divided up with a system where mundanes have more direct influence in the militant organization and mages have more influence in the civilian one, rather than an organization which controls both and attempts to divide power equally.

I wasn't saying this shouldn't happen. The local system I suggested shouldn't have the power to change the rules. I emant that there should be a higher place  composed of both groups that takes decision in dererminate topics (not the control of the oversight organization, but some general rules that during the decades and centuries might need to be modified) . Though the are the problems earlier presented.

You mean a local group sort've like a neighborhood watch which reports problems and incidents to the militant and civilian organizations? Sure, any element that can enhances oversight and increase communication between the parties involved is a good thing.

Councils to discuss major dilemmas and come to equitable decisions are also a good way to enhance communication and accountability, so I don't see any reason not to have one.

[The Elder King]

Vandicus wrote...



You mean a local group sort've like a neighborhood watch which reports problems and incidents to the militant and civilian organizations? Sure, any element that can enhances oversight and increase communication between the parties involved is a good thing.

Councils to discuss major dilemmas and come to equitable decisions are also a good way to enhance communication and accountability, so I don't see any reason not to have one.

Yeah, both of them.

[Xewaka]

KainD wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...
All the way Slaanesh. Sex for the Sex god, porn for the porn throne!

How does a Slaanesh worshiper come up with such solutions is beyond me lol.

He gets off murdering babies.


Regarding the actual topic, mages need to be taught to responsibly handle the capabilities they're born with. And it is neccessary to ensure that they don't use this metahuman capabilities to set themselves as rulers of the common folk. The only problem the current system had was the concept of tower lockdown. A more open approach (similar to a boarding school, allowing the mages to keep contact with their families, short vacations off the tower, etc) would be ideal. But mages simply cannot be allowed to roam unchecked. Otherwise, towns get nuked.

Modifié par Xewaka, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:47 .

[Adanu]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@WotanAnubis: Well, there will never be a game where Alistair will ever be a king - because the man is a pitiful spoiled brat.

Spoiled? L.O.L

AListair is about as spoiled as a begger on the street.

[Shadow Fox]

No Mages can not be trusted to police themselves remember the Mage's Collective that bribed a corrupt Templar to keep the Chantry from investigating claims of blood mages among them?

[The Elder King]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

No Mages can not be trusted to police themselves remember the Mage's Collective that bribed a corrupt Templar to keep the Chantry from investigating claims of blood mages among them?

If you've read my first post well, you'd have seen that I said that the police force would  be composed by both mages and non-mages. Which you could very well not like, but I never said that non-mages shouldn't watch over mages.

Modifié par hhh89, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:44 .

[Vit246]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

No Mages can not be trusted to police themselves remember the Mage's Collective that bribed a corrupt Templar to keep the Chantry from investigating claims of blood mages among them?

Its not like they were protecting dangerous blood mages. They wanted to deal with whatever problem there was via internal-affairs style without involving Templars. Zealot templars who might murder those simply accused of blood magic and then use them as an excuse for the current Circle system.

Modifié par Vit246, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:02 .

[Aren]

I think that to  resolve the problem we must find a good example first.

Look to the greatest thing of the Thedas the Grey wardens order, now a good solution probably require more freedom for mages but also a superbe Templars order  who follow the  order of a new  commander like the first templar or somthing like that, just like the wardens.

I think that a good solution require a reformation of the templars order  first then of the circle.

Mages must live with their family and go to the circle only to study , also the templars order must be vigilant but without the idea of chantry propaganda who see magic as a curse.

[Hellion Rex]

Necromancy!

[andy6915]

Created October 2012? Alright hold it right there necrophile! We're calling the police!

[yullyuk]

what i would propose is to have a similar system but have it be more of a schooling structure where young mages have to go to be trained, do a form of harrowing since that demon possession is ever a vigilant threat to mages, but once they are qualified mages and have proven themselves, the mages could then leave to pursue there own goals, but have to report in from time to time to ensure that no demons have posessed them and they arent using arts that are forbidden, while having templars present to protect the mages from outside threats and to be vigialant guardians, like they were supposed to be, but these templars would have to work in tandem with the circle and from that, use the mages talents to better the civil folk in return for lyrium, to supply the templars in exchange for there services, unless what alistair said is right in origins, in that Templars don't strictly need lyrium to use these abilities, it is just an enhancer to better there skills. but keeping in tradiition that mages cant inherit titles, since magic is supposed to serve people, not rule them.

[Navasha]

If the circle system was setup as a school and joining was completely voluntary (though could certainly be encouraged), then I could see it working.    Any forced mandatory participation won't get my vote.  

 

Mages would also have to end up with some "benefit" in society for joining.   

 

My analogy is always the Jedi Academy.    Its a great honor to join the Jedi.   They have great power and are taught to use and control their gifts.   When the occasional few fall to the darkside, then other Jedi are entrusted to try and rectify it.     In basically Jedi are the mages of the Star Wars universe.   However, they become Generals of the Republics armies and are viewed with respect by the common citizenry.   

 

The chantry has so polluted the minds of the common citizen against magic that mages are feared and hated.   Doubtful that there will ever be any real relationship between mages and the general population now.    If I were a mage in Thedas, I would have long since fled to Tevinter.    

[Samahl]

If the circle system was setup as a school and joining was completely voluntary (though could certainly be encouraged), then I could see it working.    Any forced mandatory participation won't get my vote.  

 

Do you take issue with mandatory schooling in the real world?