In an easily missed conversation, Legion explains the Reapers are "uploaded and cojoined minds, each a nation." The people who were pulped to create the Reapers still exist in a twisted form, or at least their minds do. It is highly, highly improbable that every single Reaper would choose to continue the cycle because they are its victims. E.g. the Reaperization process imparts some form of mind control. They obey the Catalyst. They obey AI!Shep. These are not the heretics, who freely chose their path. Killing them "because they deserve it" is misguided and wrong. We don't execute the mentally ill. The deserving one is the Catalyst, and I'm not sure it has a concept of punishment. If the Reapers can be freed, they ought to be. They should never have been created, but they are here now and Shepard should make their fate part of his calculus for the decision.
The Reapers are innocent
Débuté par
jtav
, oct. 25 2012 05:36
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#2
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:38
TheJediSaint
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Zombies are innocent too. But you're still going to kill them because they're an existential threat.
#3
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:39
jtav
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If it were the only way, sure. It's not.
#5
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:41
AresKeith
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Harbinger and Sovereign says otherwise
#6
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:41
Vigilant111
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The reapers are not Na'vi, and trust must be earned
Isn't it too good to be true that the invincible foe turned out to be benevolent?
Isn't it too good to be true that the invincible foe turned out to be benevolent?
Modifié par Vigilant111, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:42 .
#7
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:44
DeinonSlayer
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Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.
"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."
"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."
#8
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:45
IElitePredatorI
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The truth is, you eliminate them or they eliminate you.
#9
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Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:48
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It is a genocide to kill one of them.
They're the remnants of thousands of races consisting of an uncountable number of minds.
They deserve to be free, they deserve a better ending.
Mass effect 3 needs better endings.
They're the remnants of thousands of races consisting of an uncountable number of minds.
They deserve to be free, they deserve a better ending.
Mass effect 3 needs better endings.
#10
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:49
Kabooooom
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jtav wrote...
In an easily missed conversation, Legion explains the Reapers are "uploaded and cojoined minds, each a nation." The people who were pulped to create the Reapers still exist in a twisted form, or at least their minds do. I
Yes, they are innocent. But read what you wrote right here. They exist in a horrid, torturous state. The people that were used to make the Reapers did not wish it. It preserves the essence of their species but not the true species. I bet if you were to ask them, they would ask for a merciful death. And the mentally ill comparison is a false equivalency logical fallacy.
So, in light of that, Destroy is the most moral choice for me. Control subverts the Reapers further, in Synthesis they are still imprisoned within Reaper bodies - Destroy frees them.
All species go extinct with time, including our own. It is inevitable. It is the natural order of things. There comes a time when all of us have to fade from the universal stage. The Reapers are no different, and saving them - in my opinion - is naive and immoral.
#12
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:50
teh DRUMPf!!
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You don't even need the context of Legion's dialogue. The ending makes it clear: they're under control.
I'm in no way saying Destroy is wrong or invalid. But for the many who see it as "it's them or us" after the catalyst scene (and now Leviathan) ... those people simply don't get it. It's. Not. Them.
I'm in no way saying Destroy is wrong or invalid. But for the many who see it as "it's them or us" after the catalyst scene (and now Leviathan) ... those people simply don't get it. It's. Not. Them.
#14
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:51
jtav
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DeinonSlayer wrote...
Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.
"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."
No. Killing a sapient being to "end their torment" is wrong. Killing them in self-defense wouldn't be, if it were necessary.
#15
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:51
Barquiel
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We talk to three different reapers throughout the series...and judging from these conversations, I don't think it's a great idea to unleash them on the galaxy.
Modifié par Barquiel, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:52 .
#16
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Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:53
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Barquiel wrote...
We talk to three different reapers throughout the series...and judging from these conversations, I don't think it's a great idea to unleash them on the galaxy.
That's because they were been kept prisoner by the Catalyst.
Modifié par A Bethesda Fan, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:55 .
#17
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:53
Foxhound2121
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They still need to answer for crimes. Given what they have racked up, destruction is the only way.
Obeying, taking orders, and being manipulated has never been an excuse.
Obeying, taking orders, and being manipulated has never been an excuse.
Modifié par Foxhound2121, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:54 .
#18
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:53
AresKeith
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jtav wrote...
DeinonSlayer wrote...
Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.
"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."
No. Killing a sapient being to "end their torment" is wrong. Killing them in self-defense wouldn't be, if it were necessary.
Do you really think they would want to be trap inside of a Reaper (who killed them) forever, I think not
#19
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Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:55
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Foxhound2121 wrote...
They still need to answer for crimes. Given what they have racked up, destruction is the only way.
Obeying, taking orders, and being manipulated has never been an excuse.
Is it a crime to be forced to kill against your will?
#20
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:56
DeinonSlayer
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I take it you let that batarian in the refugee camp keep suffering on life support, then? Left that braindead guy on the derelict on life support back in ME1?jtav wrote...
DeinonSlayer wrote...
Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.
"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."
No. Killing a sapient being to "end their torment" is wrong. Killing them in self-defense wouldn't be, if it were necessary.
#21
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:56
CrutchCricket
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Ugh. The tendency of some to victimize the Reapers is definitely one of the more loathsome effects of this crappy ending.
#22
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:58
AresKeith
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CrutchCricket wrote...
Ugh. The tendency of some to victimize the Reapers is definitely one of the more loathsome effects of this crappy ending.
Thats why I hate when games make the main enemy into misunderstood good guys or slaves. Thats really annoying
#23
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:58
Kabooooom
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jtav wrote...
No. Killing a sapient being to "end their torment" is wrong. Killing them in self-defense wouldn't be, if it were necessary.
Are you serious? Can you actually frame an argument that it is more moral to keep an individual sufferring, especially if they want to die and their condition is terminal, instead of a mercy killing?
Sorry, but I disagree wholeheartedly. From a purely logical perspective on morality, you're wrong. Don't let emotion get in the way.
#24
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:58
jtav
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AresKeith wrote...
jtav wrote...
DeinonSlayer wrote...
Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.
"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."
No. Killing a sapient being to "end their torment" is wrong. Killing them in self-defense wouldn't be, if it were necessary.
Do you really think they would want to be trap inside of a Reaper (who killed them) forever, I think not
I don't know what they want. Can't ask them. Let them committ suicide if they want. But I won't presume I know what they would want because I'm terrified of someone presuming for me.
#25
Posté 25 octobre 2012 - 05:59
Foxhound2121
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A Bethesda Fan wrote...
Foxhound2121 wrote...
They still need to answer for crimes. Given what they have racked up, destruction is the only way.
Obeying, taking orders, and being manipulated has never been an excuse.
Is it a crime to be forced to kill against your will?
If they are a puppet, how can it be against their will?
