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[Kabooooom]

a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression,disease, and overcrowding.

Right, oppression. Indoctrination is a form of oppression. Thus an indoctrination induced "utopia" is dystopic. I can think of several sci-fi stories that adopt this exact premise or a variation of it.

It is wrong. They have no control of their actions. Thus, they are innocent.

And forcing synthesis is also wrong. Did you not read this thread? I thought you did. The endings are an example of moral relativism. No one ending is ideal. All of them have moral consequences of your actions. It is up to you to decide, subjectively, which is *more* wrong than the others.

EDIT: Nvm, I see you edited your post saying "every ending is immoral". We are in agreement.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:41 .

[.PHANTOM]

The reapers are just the Reapers now, nothing can change that, and even if their minds were still intact, do you believe they would just all of a sudden know what they did was wrong and remember who they were all of a sudden. The Catalyst has pretty much had them do the same thing over and over, destroy, harvest, indoctrinate.

After a million years of the same terrible actions over and over, do you honestly believe that the species can be/act like it use to, before the reapers showed up and turned them in what they are now. It's sort of like having an innocent person taken in by a serial killer, forced to take that persons mentality and winding up the same way as the mentor/master/wronger/whatever, the person that was dies after a while if they are not helped immediately and a monster is created in its place. And that's what I see with the Reapers, forced to become nothing more than Genocidal Machines.

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...
It has nothing to do with what's natural. The compelling factor is the mindset of the original victims. If they willingly chose to become Reapers as a race, then they shouldn't be killed. If they did not, then the Reapers have no right to their own minds and genetic material, as it was stolen from previously autonomous races.

You can't be serious. They have "no right to their own minds"? What insanity is this? Since when can anything lose the right to its own mind? Also, genetic material doesn't belong to anyone. It's biological matter that makes up a certain species. And lastly, they didn't choose to become what they are, so you can't blame them for it. A simple principle of morality, right?

No, the the mindset of the original species is completely irrelevant for the validity of the Reapers as a life form, most specifically if they were unwilling. In fact, had they chosen to become a Reaper and support the cycle, *then* you might have a justification to kill them.

Really, I find it mind-boggling how so many of the so-called "Paragons" suddenly discard their morals and become so very Renegade when the old mindset is no longer convenient. I swear I've never seen so much double-think as in arguments about Synthesis. Forced euthanasia is suddenly ok. The right to exist is denied because of origin. I don't believe this. Apparently people are so imprisoned in their us-vs-them mentality and trapped in a mindset where the Reapers are "abominations" (an abominable concept to start with) that they'd rather twist their logic into knots than admit the other side has a point.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

How would that be a dystopia? And can't the catalyst just make everyone be happy via indindoctination?
It"s entire goal was to control all life to protect it.

A utopia that arises because of forced indoctrination is a dystopia.

It is a sci-fi trope. Often utopias on the surface are not the utopias that they seem. But, unfortunately Bioware was not that clever. They seemed to be going for the Synthesis is really a utopia type thing, and then slightly retconned that with the extended cut since presumably there could still be war in the synthesis ending.

No...http://dictionary.re...browse/dystopia

a[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)"> ] [/color]characterized[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)"> ] [/color]human[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)"> ] [/color]as[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)"> ] [/color]oppression,[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)">disease, ] [/color]overcrowding.

That the defination of a dystopia.

I would describ a world like what's in the book"1982"  "1984"A dystopia.

FIFY

[dreman9999]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
 How would that be a dystopia? And can't the catalyst just make everyone be happy via indindoctination?
It"s entire goal was to control all life to protect it.

No, the Catalyst was designed to preserve organic and synthetic life. The Leviathans are the ones who wanted to use him to control the others, which led to Catalyst calculating that they were part of the problem and must be harvested in order to bring order to the chaos.

It's design to preserve organic and sythetic life. Yes....But itplanned to do so by control them. Why do you think it harvest it's creators that had the power to control organics and fine tune their powers.Why do you think they have indoctrination and turn all advance life into something it can control, reapers?
Why do you think it make the mass relay trap to accelerate the advancement of life?

It programmed to presserve life. It 's means to perserve life is to control it.

Synthesis would be a faster way to do that.

[ManiacG]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This thread is incredible. Simply incredible. I'm somewhat speechless.

There are so many asinine arguments in this thread. I completely agree with jtav and Ieldra. The story makes it very clear that the Catalyst is controlling the minds of the Reapers.

THIS MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. Isn't it kind of suspicious that every harvested species just complies with the Catalyst's demands?

I swear, it seems that some of you are physically incapable of considering alternative points of view.

If you agree with them, please do not spread your crazy around.

seconded

[Wayning_Star]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

THIS MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. Isn't it kind of suspicious that every harvested species just complies with the Catalyst's demands?

The argument isn't whether or not the Reapers are under control. Pretty much everyone that actually paid attention to the story agrees with that.

The argument is about the morality of killing them despite that fact.

It is wrong. They have no control of their actions. Thus, they are innocent.

However, I think a case can be made for Destroy. That is, Synthesis is simply too much. Still, Destroy is an immoral act. But every ending is immoral.

The aggravating part of all this the actual 'choice' isn't given, it's demanded. All the choices are demanded by someone unknown to Shep. Only one works for everyone,even possibly for the catalyst(as a synthetic life form who destroyed its creator race/or saved them via harby?).  Organics demand synthetics to exist/and evolve with them, synthesis is just a short cut to that end. Right/wrong have really little to do with it, post catalyst program. The MEU has fallen into the trap and only one way out of it. Like it.. or not.  Organics nor Shepard can undo billions of years of ... logic.


edit: forgot to mention the problematics of the Leviathan, released via any other choice. Maybe they DID created/design the crucible. Knowing that organics/Shep could probably 'define' synthesis as out of the question. I really believe that the prothians/or like race, instilled the synthesis choice, as it doesn't match up with leviathan prime directive. Synthesis would definitively dampen Leviathan enthrallment. Maybe even stop it.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:47 .

[wright1978]

Nope reapers are definitely not inoocent. They have the blood of billions of their hands that's even without debating whether the other millions they murdered and transformed into reapers count as murder. Even if they were just following orders they deserve a clean execution.

[CosmicGnosis]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This thread is incredible. Simply incredible. I'm somewhat speechless.

There are so many asinine arguments in this thread. I completely agree with jtav and Ieldra. The story makes it very clear that the Catalyst is controlling the minds of the Reapers.

THIS MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. Isn't it kind of suspicious that every harvested species just complies with the Catalyst's demands?

I swear, it seems that some of you are physically incapable of considering alternative points of view.

If you agree with them, please do not spread your crazy around.

Look, I understand that before the ending we have no reason to empathize with the Reapers. They've killed probably quadrillions of people over the ages.

But that's the problem, isn't it? Those people were harvested. They became Reapers. And as Reapers, they harvest other species.

Isn't that kind of weird? If the Reapers had true free will, why would they ever harvest other species?

[BatmanTurian]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
It has nothing to do with what's natural. The compelling factor is the mindset of the original victims. If they willingly chose to become Reapers as a race, then they shouldn't be killed. If they did not, then the Reapers have no right to their own minds and genetic material, as it was stolen from previously autonomous races.

You can't be serious. They have "no right to their own minds"? What insanity is this? Since when can anything lose the right to its own mind? Also, genetic material doesn't belong to anyone. It's biological matter that makes up a certain species. And lastly, they didn't choose to become what they are, so you can't blame them for it. A simple principle of morality, right?

No, the the mindset of the original species is completely irrelevant for the validity of the Reapers as a life form, most specifically if they were unwilling. In fact, had they chosen to become a Reaper and support the cycle, *then* you might have a justification to kill them.

Really, I find it mind-boggling how so many of the so-called "Paragons" suddenly discard their morals and become so very Renegade when the old mindset is no longer convenient. I swear I've never seen so much double-think as in arguments about Synthesis. Forced euthanasia is suddenly ok. The right to exist is denied because of origin. I don't believe this. Apparently people are so imprisoned in their us-vs-them mentality and trapped in a mindset where the Reapers are "abominations" (an abominable concept to start with) that they'd rather twist their logic into knots than admit the other side has a point.

This just in: Good guys have to do bad things to accomplish something good for the world, just as a doctor must sometimes harm a body by cutting it to do surgery to heal by correcting an internal problem.

[Xilizhra]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And that's fine, but you are choosing it at the cost of the free will of every organic being in the galaxy to choose their fate. You have arbitrarily placed more value on the lives of the Reapers than that. That's totally fine, and what bioware intended by making the endings controversial. But if you missed that point then you missed the point of the endings entirely.

I'm choosing their lives over the risk of potentially losing free will, if my Shepard-Catalyst goes bad. But I don't RP it as doing so, so it won't.

You are enslaving trillions. Your choice is still morally gray.

And I consider it far superior to just committing genocide. Double genocide, really. And I wouldn't call it slavery regardless.

[dreman9999]

Kabooooom wrote...

a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression,disease, and overcrowding.

Right, oppression. Indoctrination is a form of oppression. Thus an indoctrination induced "utopia" is dystopic. I can think of several sci-fi stories that adopt this exact premise or a variation of it.

It is wrong. They have no control of their actions. Thus, they are innocent.

And forcing synthesis is also wrong. Did you not read this thread? I thought you did. The endings are an example of moral relativism. No one ending is ideal. All of them have moral consequences of your actions. It is up to you to decide, subjectively, which is *more* wrong than the others.

EDIT: Nvm, I see you edited your post saying "every ending is immoral". We are in agreement.

The thing you missing is that when indoctrion is used, no one would no about it. Thus they can appose it nor truely be oppressed.

They are made to be happy. And most th catalyst would just make sure no unessiary conflict will happen. All life would be allowed to any joy as long as they do not destory each otheras an abstract.

That still means no free will.

[BatmanTurian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This thread is incredible. Simply incredible. I'm somewhat speechless.

There are so many asinine arguments in this thread. I completely agree with jtav and Ieldra. The story makes it very clear that the Catalyst is controlling the minds of the Reapers.

THIS MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. Isn't it kind of suspicious that every harvested species just complies with the Catalyst's demands?

I swear, it seems that some of you are physically incapable of considering alternative points of view.

If you agree with them, please do not spread your crazy around.

Look, I understand that before the ending we have no reason to empathize with the Reapers. They've killed probably quadrillions of people over the ages.

But that's the problem, isn't it? Those people were harvested. They became Reapers. And as Reapers, they harvest other species.

Isn't that kind of weird? If the Reapers had true free will, why would they ever harvest other species?

Does it matter? They're still killing people. The only other options are to enslave them or give them the freedom to go Eeyore and kill themselves over all the blood on their tenticles right after they upload all the information from all the extinct races they... oh.. made extinct.

[spotlessvoid]

Can't you people see! The Reapers just need love! Harbinger just needs a hug. I bet he purrs. Big ol softy.

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And that's fine, but you are choosing it at the cost of the free will of every organic being in the galaxy to choose their fate. You have arbitrarily placed more value on the lives of the Reapers than that. That's totally fine, and what bioware intended by making the endings controversial. But if you missed that point then you missed the point of the endings entirely.

I'm choosing their lives over the risk of potentially losing free will, if my Shepard-Catalyst goes bad. But I don't RP it as doing so, so it won't.

You are enslaving trillions. Your choice is still morally gray.

And I consider it far superior to just committing genocide. Double genocide, really. And I wouldn't call it slavery regardless.

So slavery is better than genocide. Got it. You are totally morally superior.

[Xilizhra]

Does it matter? They're still killing people. The only other options are to enslave them or give them the freedom to go Eeyore and kill themselves over all the blood on their tenticles right after they upload all the information from all the extinct races they... oh.. made extinct.

Both of which are far better than outright killing them.

So slavery is better than genocide. Got it. You are totally morally superior.

YES.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:47 .

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This thread is incredible. Simply incredible. I'm somewhat speechless.

There are so many asinine arguments in this thread. I completely agree with jtav and Ieldra. The story makes it very clear that the Catalyst is controlling the minds of the Reapers.

THIS MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. Isn't it kind of suspicious that every harvested species just complies with the Catalyst's demands?

I swear, it seems that some of you are physically incapable of considering alternative points of view.

Some of us do appreciate other in-game evidence besides glowstick.  Sovereign, Harbinger, and the Reaper on Rannoch all come off as completely in control.  This is further confirmed by Legion "They are unknowable".

I'd rather see the reapers as these mysterious eldritch horrors, not glowstick's social studies project.

[dreman9999]

wright1978 wrote...

Nope reapers are definitely not inoocent. They have the blood of billions of their hands that's even without debating whether the other millions they murdered and transformed into reapers count as murder. Even if they were just following orders they deserve a clean execution.

Your missing the point here that the reaper don't have a say in what they do. They are forced to harvest.
It someone took control of your body or put you under a geass and made you kill billions? Who is at fault, you or the person who made you kill those billions?

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Does it matter? They're still killing people. The only other options are to enslave them or give them the freedom to go Eeyore and kill themselves over all the blood on their tenticles right after they upload all the information from all the extinct races they... oh.. made extinct.

Both of which are far better than outright killing them.

So slavery is better than genocide. Got it. You are totally morally superior.

YES.

"Give me liberty, or give me death"

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

Does it matter? They're still killing people. The only other options are to enslave them or give them the freedom to go Eeyore and kill themselves over all the blood on their tenticles right after they upload all the information from all the extinct races they... oh.. made extinct.

Both of which are far better than outright killing them.

So slavery is better than genocide. Got it. You are totally morally superior.

YES.

[clennon8]

There is no point in arguing with dyed-in-the-wool contrarians who only liked the last ten minutes of the game they spent thirty hours playing.

[dreman9999]

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This thread is incredible. Simply incredible. I'm somewhat speechless.

There are so many asinine arguments in this thread. I completely agree with jtav and Ieldra. The story makes it very clear that the Catalyst is controlling the minds of the Reapers.

THIS MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. Isn't it kind of suspicious that every harvested species just complies with the Catalyst's demands?

I swear, it seems that some of you are physically incapable of considering alternative points of view.

Some of us do appreciate other in-game evidence besides glowstick.  Sovereign, Harbinger, and the Reaper on Rannoch all come off as completely in control.  This is further confirmed by Legion "They are unknowable".

I'd rather see the reapers as these mysterious eldritch horrors, not glowstick's social studies project.

So did Seran in ME1...And he turned out to be an indoctrinated slave.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Does it matter? They're still killing people. The only other options are to enslave them or give them the freedom to go Eeyore and kill themselves over all the blood on their tenticles right after they upload all the information from all the extinct races they... oh.. made extinct.

Both of which are far better than outright killing them.

So slavery is better than genocide. Got it. You are totally morally superior.

YES.

"Give me liberty, or give me death"

I can just see Harbinger holding a giant American flag while saying that.

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

Does it matter? They're still killing people. The only other options are to enslave them or give them the freedom to go Eeyore and kill themselves over all the blood on their tenticles right after they upload all the information from all the extinct races they... oh.. made extinct.

Both of which are far better than outright killing them.

So slavery is better than genocide. Got it. You are totally morally superior.

YES.

So you agree that we should all still have slaves in our houses, that sapient beings should be kept as property?

[Wayning_Star]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Can't you people see! The Reapers just need love! Harbinger just needs a hug. I bet he purrs. Big ol softy.

well, it did 'miss' Shep in the run to the beam. Maybe you're correct after all.. Didn't go after the Normanday either, when it could of taken it out during the rescue mission for Shepard.