985 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

BatmanTurian wrote...
It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.

I am not even sure what argument you are talking about anymore, since you are all over the place. But I am glad we have finally come to this place, since now I realize that you are simply using an example of brainwashing that is functionally different from what is going on in Mass Effect, but using it as the precedent case anyway.

Obviously there were people in Germany who became convinced that the **** idealogy was correct. By brainwashing, I will presume you to mean that these people chose to buy into the propoganda despite the moral problems that existed with the idealogy. Even if you subsume this example under brainwashing, it is clear that it is principally different from the brainwashing that exists in Mass Effect, in which the Reapers did not choose anything.

But in actual fact, it doesn't even matter whether or not you think it's the same as the Catalyst brainwashing the Reapers, because the people you are arguing with clearly think otherwise. So let me frame the question like this:

If you think the Reapers had absolutely no choice but to do what the Catalyst wanted, that the Catalyst was able to control their actions and that the Reapers could not resist the Catalyst, then are they still morally responsible for their actions?

If you answer no, then we all agree on the moral responsibility part, and the difference of opinion becomes a practical question of what type of control the Catalyst is exerting.

If your answer is yes, then you believe that that it does not matter whether or not an entity chooses an action; they are responsible for the consequences. If you then apply this morality to my example of accidentally killing the girl, you'll see that you would have no choice but to accept responsibility for killing the girl.

[wright1978]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Look, I understand that before the ending we have no reason to empathize with the Reapers. They've killed probably quadrillions of people over the ages.

But that's the problem, isn't it? Those people were harvested. They became Reapers. And as Reapers, they harvest other species.

Isn't that kind of weird? If the Reapers had true free will, why would they ever harvest other species?

They also butcher billions each cycle who are not harvested.

[Steelcan]

Modifié par Steelcan, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:51 .

[dreman9999]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Can't you people see! The Reapers just need love! Harbinger just needs a hug. I bet he purrs. Big ol softy.

Who said that? This just change things to putting down a mad dog.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

clennon8 wrote...

There is no point in arguing with dyed-in-the-wool contrarians who only liked the last ten minutes of the game they spent thirty hours playing.

What about us who enjoyed the last ten minutes as well as the other thirty hours?

[Someone With Mass]

Even if the Reapers were nothing more than tools, it doesn't change anything.

It doesn't justify the countless lives they have taken and millions of civilizations they have destroyed.

Nothing ever will.

[dreman9999]

wright1978 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Look, I understand that before the ending we have no reason to empathize with the Reapers. They've killed probably quadrillions of people over the ages.

But that's the problem, isn't it? Those people were harvested. They became Reapers. And as Reapers, they harvest other species.

Isn't that kind of weird? If the Reapers had true free will, why would they ever harvest other species?

They also butcher billions each cycle who are not harvested.

Did they have a say in it? No. Where they forced to? Yes.

That means they are innocent.

[spotlessvoid]

Every last piece of official Mass Effect 3 promotional art related to the endings shows Reapers burning, falling from the sky. Even the ME3 background theme on the bsn you people have been staring at for 7 months shows it.

All of it, every last picture- Reapers destroyed. Seriously, pay attention folks

[CosmicGnosis]

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:55 .

[AresKeith]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Every last piece of official Mass Effect 3 promotional art related to the endings shows Reapers burning, falling from the sky. Even the ME3 background theme on the bsn you people have been staring at for 7 months shows it.

All of it, every last picture- Reapers destroyed. Seriously, pay attention folks

But there our friends and wants to save us

[cyrexwingblade]

Oh so much rage over such a simple concept. The ending is 'pick your poison'.

Option 1: Enslave a sentient race.
Option 2: Force all living beings to suffer a fundamentally change in their nature.
Option 3: Kill a mind-controlled race and all synthetic life to stop them from slaughtering trillians of civilians (not ignoring the soldier, just making the moral point clearer).

None of these are good answers.

I err on the side of Option 1, because it has options afterward.

[Wayning_Star]

Face it folks, synthesis is the only working theory. The others are problematic, they won't work, long term. Logic is dictated. That's probably why many don't want to choose it. But then, none of the choices are actually choices at all, they are demands... Most annoying..that..

other than the Leviathan..they're pretty annoying too..and demanding..etc.

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

Does it matter? They're still killing people. The only other options are to enslave them or give them the freedom to go Eeyore and kill themselves over all the blood on their tenticles right after they upload all the information from all the extinct races they... oh.. made extinct.

Both of which are far better than outright killing them.

So slavery is better than genocide. Got it. You are totally morally superior.

YES.

The reapers are eternal. The consequences of this slavery will be felt forever, by every living being and their ancestors. A lot of additional blood and suffering will be demanded in pointless revolts.

The consequences of Destroy are harsh, but will be dealt with in several years.

[BatmanTurian]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.

I am not even sure what argument you are talking about anymore, since you are all over the place. But I am glad we have finally come to this place, since now I realize that you are simply using an example of brainwashing that is functionally different from what is going on in Mass Effect, but using it as the precedent case anyway.

Obviously there were people in Germany who became convinced that the **** idealogy was correct. By brainwashing, I will presume you to mean that these people chose to buy into the propoganda despite the moral problems that existed with the idealogy. Even if you subsume this example under brainwashing, it is clear that it is principally different from the brainwashing that exists in Mass Effect, in which the Reapers did not choose anything.

But in actual fact, it doesn't even matter whether or not you think it's the same as the Catalyst brainwashing the Reapers, because the people you are arguing with clearly think otherwise. So let me frame the question like this:

If you think the Reapers had absolutely no choice but to do what the Catalyst wanted, that the Catalyst was able to control their actions and that the Reapers could not resist the Catalyst, then are they still morally responsible for their actions?

If you answer no, then we all agree on the moral responsibility part, and the difference of opinion becomes a practical question of what type of control the Catalyst is exerting.

If your answer is yes, then you believe that that it does not matter whether or not an entity chooses an action; they are responsible for the consequences. If you then apply this morality to my example of accidentally killing the girl, you'll see that you would have no choice but to accept responsibility for killing the girl.

No, it's still false equivalence. Yeah, I can tell you're a lawyer.

[spotlessvoid]

I can't believe Bioware pulled this off. It's fascinating..especially you synthesis people.

[Kabooooom]

The thing you missing is that when indoctrion is used, no one would no about it. Thus they can appose it nor truely be oppressed.

They are made to be happy. And most th catalyst would just make sure no unessiary conflict will happen. All life would be allowed to any joy as long as they do not destory each otheras an abstract.

That still means no free will.

Right, I agree with your interpretation of what it would be like. But, by definition this is still not a utopia. And not only that, but as I pointed out this is an idea that has been done to death in sci-fi. You have legit dystopias, and then you have dystopias masquerading as utopias. This is not a new concept that I just came up with out of the blue.

In fact, nearly every "utopia" story that I can think of off the top of my head is not actually a true utopia, but a flawed utopia or one achieved via immoral means. That's what I'm saying. The indoctrinated synthesis you are proposing (which is likely not Biowares intent) is not a utopia, even if it is all sunshine and puppies.

[BatmanTurian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

[dreman9999]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Every last piece of official Mass Effect 3 promotional art related to the endings shows Reapers burning, falling from the sky. Even the ME3 background theme on the bsn you people have been staring at for 7 months shows it.

All of it, every last picture- Reapers destroyed. Seriously, pay attention folks

1. One pic of a deadreaper does not mean we have to destory them all.
2. The background on bsn is not of the reapers being destroyed. That is just them doing a planet entry.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I can't believe Bioware pulled this off. It's fascinating..especially you synthesis people.

pulled what off? Victimizing the Reapers?

[Bill Casey]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I can't believe Bioware pulled this off. It's fascinating..especially you synthesis people.

It's brilliant, isn't it?

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

Let me put it in a way for you to understand...
If someone took control of you body or put  a geass on you and made you kill billions of people. Who is at fault, you or the person that took control of you?

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Look, I understand that before the ending we have no reason to empathize with the Reapers. They've killed probably quadrillions of people over the ages.

But that's the problem, isn't it? Those people were harvested. They became Reapers. And as Reapers, they harvest other species.

Isn't that kind of weird? If the Reapers had true free will, why would they ever harvest other species?

They also butcher billions each cycle who are not harvested.

Did they have a say in it? No. Where they forced to? Yes.

That means they are innocent.

" Just following orders" is not a valid defense of atrocious actions.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

Because they had no choice in doing any of it. And the Catalyst is dead regardless.

" Just following orders" is not a valid defense of atrocious actions.

It's not orders. It was mind control. They were not physically capable of resisting, or mentally.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:00 .

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Glowstick worked well on you.  You sympathize with the reapers and work to expedite their goals.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

Let me put it in a way for you to understand...
If someone took control of you body or put  a geass on you and made you kill billions of people. Who is at fault, you or the person that took control of you?

Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:01 .