985 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I can't believe Bioware pulled this off. It's fascinating..especially you synthesis people.

pulled what off? Victimizing the Reapers?

They showed us the flaws of shackled AI's.

[spotlessvoid]

Lets permanently merge all organic life with synthetics without asking. Why? Because the Reaper leader said to. How does he know it's a good idea? Because we're using Reaper Tech (citadel, relays) to do it. Brilliant

[Hanako Ikezawa]

dreman9999 wrote...
They showed us the flaws of shackled AI's.

We thought we were safe...

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:02 .

[Bill Casey]

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I can't believe Bioware pulled this off. It's fascinating..especially you synthesis people.

pulled what off? Victimizing the Reapers?

They showed us the flaws of shackled AI's.

No, they indoctrinated the audience...
And they pulled it off masterfully...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:02 .

[spotlessvoid]

I give up

[wright1978]

dreman9999 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

They also butcher billions each cycle who are not harvested.

Did they have a say in it? No. Where they forced to? Yes.

That means they are innocent.

They did it. They aren't innocent. They are culpable for the crime. Are there reasons why they did it, sure. That doesn't obviate responsibility.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Look, I understand that before the ending we have no reason to empathize with the Reapers. They've killed probably quadrillions of people over the ages.

But that's the problem, isn't it? Those people were harvested. They became Reapers. And as Reapers, they harvest other species.

Isn't that kind of weird? If the Reapers had true free will, why would they ever harvest other species?

They also butcher billions each cycle who are not harvested.

Did they have a say in it? No. Where they forced to? Yes.

That means they are innocent.

" Just following orders" is not a valid defense of atrocious actions.

It not a case of fallowing orders. Indoctrination is not a case of fallowing orders. 


It a case of someone or thing taking you will a way form you and forcing you to do horrible acts.

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

Because they had no choice in doing any of it. And the Catalyst is dead regardless.

" Just following orders" is not a valid defense of atrocious actions.

It's not orders. It was mind control. They were not physically capable of resisting, or mentally.

Xil, you are defending cyborgs that killed trillions of sapient beings and absorbed them into some kind of forced concensus and then advocate that enslaving them is better than putting them out of their misery. Think about it.

[clennon8]

Bill Casey wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I can't believe Bioware pulled this off. It's fascinating..especially you synthesis people.

It's brilliant, isn't it?

Indeed.  It's like some people run right up to the Reapers with open arms and say "Please indoctrinate me!  Save me from this wretched existence!"

[cyrexwingblade]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Face it folks, synthesis is the only working theory. The others are problematic, they won't work, long term. Logic is dictated. That's probably why many don't want to choose it. But then, none of the choices are actually choices at all, they are demands... Most annoying..that..

other than the Leviathan..they're pretty annoying too..and demanding..etc.

You're assuming it doesn't cause far worse problems than it solves. 

Ever read a story about what happens when people suddenly become telepathic in a community? They usually end in slaughter, war, or extreme self-isolation.

Synthesis is very much on the same questionable footing as the other two. It has more perks, but definitely more cons as well.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Look, I understand that before the ending we have no reason to empathize with the Reapers. They've killed probably quadrillions of people over the ages.

But that's the problem, isn't it? Those people were harvested. They became Reapers. And as Reapers, they harvest other species.

Isn't that kind of weird? If the Reapers had true free will, why would they ever harvest other species?

They also butcher billions each cycle who are not harvested.

Did they have a say in it? No. Where they forced to? Yes.

That means they are innocent.

" Just following orders" is not a valid defense of atrocious actions.

It not a case of fallowing orders. Indoctrination is not a case of fallowing orders. 


It a case of someone or thing taking you will a way form you and forcing you to do horrible acts.

So a reaper tells you to do something, and you do it, that's not following orders?

[dreman9999]

wright1978 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

They also butcher billions each cycle who are not harvested.

Did they have a say in it? No. Where they forced to? Yes.

That means they are innocent.

They did it. They aren't innocent. They are culpable for the crime. Are there reasons why they did it, sure. That doesn't obviate responsibility.

The reapers did?

So you're saying races of people let themselve be harvest  and be turned into beings that just fallows it's programing no matter what?

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:06 .

[Kabooooom]

Bill Casey wrote...


No, they indoctrinated the audience...
And they pulled it off masterfully...

Yep. Even if the ending isn't a true Indoctrination of Shep, Bioware is basically indoctrinating the gamer. In the last ten minutes an attempt is made to empathize with the Reapers, and to strongly align destroying them with a renegade path. Most people, the first time, choose a scenario in which the Reapers survive - either Control or Synthesis.

That's quite an achievement. Although I will be the first to say that the endings were not delivered well to the point that they suck from a literary standpoint, the concept is ingenious - turn the player's opinion at the last possible second.

[tvman099]

Thinking of the Reapers in terms of innocence or guilt is flawed because it implies that they're something more than AIs doing what they were programmed to do. The Reapers are a gun pointed at the head of everyone in the galaxy. The Catalyst is the one with its finger on the trigger.

It's too bad really because it takes away from the sense of badassery you got from Sovereign in ME1.

Modifié par tvman099, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:05 .

[spotlessvoid]

clennon8 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I can't believe Bioware pulled this off. It's fascinating..especially you synthesis people.

It's brilliant, isn't it?

Indeed.  It's like some people run right up to the Reapers with open arms and say "Please indoctrinate me!  Save me from this wretched existence!"

It's disconcerting.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Look, I understand that before the ending we have no reason to empathize with the Reapers. They've killed probably quadrillions of people over the ages.

But that's the problem, isn't it? Those people were harvested. They became Reapers. And as Reapers, they harvest other species.

Isn't that kind of weird? If the Reapers had true free will, why would they ever harvest other species?

They also butcher billions each cycle who are not harvested.

Did they have a say in it? No. Where they forced to? Yes.

That means they are innocent.

" Just following orders" is not a valid defense of atrocious actions.

It not a case of fallowing orders. Indoctrination is not a case of fallowing orders. 


It a case of someone or thing taking you will a way form you and forcing you to do horrible acts.

So a reaper tells you to do something, and you do it, that's not following orders?

You missed hereing about this thing called indoctriantion in ME1?

[CosmicGnosis]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is the bad guy. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:06 .

[Someone With Mass]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Here's the thing, though: 

They aren't preserving any of the lives they've taken in their machine bodies.

They're merely storing the information about those civlizations they themselves have already destroyed.

Besides, I doubt that the Reapers are keeping the philosophies and the social information about those civilizations, since they're after the technology.

It's more than likely not their objective to keep such information either, because they'd have no use for it.

[BatmanTurian]

tvman099 wrote...

Thinking of the Reapers in terms of innocence or guilt is flawed because it implies that they're something more than AIs doing what they were programmed to do. The Reapers are a gun pointed at the head of everyone in the galaxy. The Catalyst is the one with its finger on the trigger.

It's too bad really because it takes away from the sense of badassery you got from Sovereign in ME1.

So then, destroying the gun makes us safe. Got it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

tvman099 wrote...

Thinking of the Reapers in terms of innocence or guilt is flawed because it implies that they're something more than AIs doing what they were programmed to do. The Reapers are a gun pointed at the head of everyone in the galaxy. The Catalyst is the one with its finger on the trigger.

It's too bad really because it takes away from the sense of badassery you got from Sovereign in ME1.

And the Leviathans are the one who prorogrammed him to fire. If anyone is guilty, its them.

[Bill Casey]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

THE CITADEL IS THE CATALYST...

[dreamgazer]

clennon8 wrote...

Indeed.  It's like some people run right up to the Reapers with open arms and say "Please indoctrinate me!  Save me from this wretched existence!"

I think I actually read something along those lines somewhere on the forum. Can't remember where. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:09 .

[dreman9999]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is the bad guy. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

The catalyst is doing what the leviathens told it to do.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is the bad guy. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

He's omly following his programming, so he's just as innocent as any Reaper. The true culprits are the Leviathans.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:08 .

[wright1978]

dreman9999 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

They also butcher billions each cycle who are not harvested.

Did they have a say in it? No. Where they forced to? Yes.

That means they are innocent.

They did it. They aren't innocent. They are culpable for the crime. Are there reasons why they did it, sure. That doesn't obviate responsibility.

The reapers did?

So you saying races of people let themselve be harvest  and be turned in being that just fallows it's programing no matter what?

No i'm saying the remants of each cycle get turned into reapers that then go on to mass murder the bulk of the next cycle, until that cycle is whipped enough that they can then turn the remants into more reapers. The reapers are still responsible even if there is an evil space troll that is acting as general.