985 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanTurian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

But the Reapers did the dirty work and swim in entire ocean planets of blood. If you think they are innocent, mind-controlled or not, you are delusional, or you are hand-waving away their responsibility for their actions, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

[KENNY4753]

AresKeith wrote...

Harbinger and Sovereign says otherwise

this

[Jamie9]

Agreed, the Reapers are as much victims as our Cycle.

[dreman9999]

dreamgazer wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Indeed.  It's like some people run right up to the Reapers with open arms and say "Please indoctrinate me!  Save me from this wretched existence!"

I think I actually read something along those lines, somewhere on the forum. Can't remember where. 

Synthesis.

[CosmicGnosis]

Someone With Mass wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Here's the thing, though: 

They aren't preserving any of the lives they've taken in their machine bodies.

They're merely storing the information about those civlizations they themselves have already destroyed.

Besides, I doubt that the Reapers are keeping the philosophies and the social information about those civilizations, since they're after the technology.

It's more than likely not their objective to keep such information either, because they'd have no use for it.

www.youtube.com/watch

[dreman9999]

KENNY4753 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Harbinger and Sovereign says otherwise

this

You don't see how Sovergin and Harbinger is just like Saren and TIM?

[BatmanTurian]

Jamie9 wrote...

Agreed, the Reapers are as much victims as our Cycle.

Victims who became murderers themselves.

[Kabooooom]

And the Leviathans are the one who prorogrammed him to fire. If anyone is guilty, its them.

Well, presumably the Leviathans just programmed him to solve a task and gave him super leeway to do it.

They SHOULD have programmed him in this fashion: Solve the conflict of organic and synthetic life. Oh, and don't solve that by preserving organics in synthetic-organic form against their will. Kthx.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

But the Reapers did the dirty work and swim in entire ocean planets of blood. If you think they are innocent, mind-controlled or not, you are delusional, or you are hand-waving away their responsibility for their actions, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a geass and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

[tvman099]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

tvman099 wrote...

Thinking of the Reapers in terms of innocence or guilt is flawed because it implies that they're something more than AIs doing what they were programmed to do. The Reapers are a gun pointed at the head of everyone in the galaxy. The Catalyst is the one with its finger on the trigger.

It's too bad really because it takes away from the sense of badassery you got from Sovereign in ME1.

And the Leviathans are the one who prorogrammed him to fire. If anyone is guilty, its them.

Based on what they said, I wouldn't assume that to be the case. They certainly didn't seem to expect or desire their own genocide.

Even so, they deserved to be wiped out for enslaving everyone in the galaxy for millenia.

[dreman9999]

Kabooooom wrote...

And the Leviathans are the one who prorogrammed him to fire. If anyone is guilty, its them.

Well, presumably the Leviathans just programmed him to solve a task and gave him super leeway to do it.

They SHOULD have programmed him in this fashion: Solve the conflict of organic and synthetic life. Oh, and don't solve that by preserving organics in synthetic-organic form against their will. Kthx.

Too bad they did do that.That still means the leviathens are still at fault.

[CosmicGnosis]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

But the Reapers did the dirty work and swim in entire ocean planets of blood. If you think they are innocent, mind-controlled or not, you are delusional, or you are hand-waving away their responsibility for their actions, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

*Sigh* If someone hacked into your mind and used your body to kill someone, I would not blame you for it. I would blame the hacker.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:13 .

[Argolas]

Bill Casey wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

THE CITADEL IS THE CATALYST...

Good to know I am not the only one left thinking that =)

[Jamie9]

BatmanTurian wrote...
Victims who became murderers themselves.

Depends on how much free will they retain. If they're indoctrinated by the Catalyst in any way resembling the way Paul Grayson was then I most definitely feel sorry for them.

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 They have "no right to their own minds"? What insanity is this? Since when can anything lose the right to its own mind?

Please keep your close-minded exclamations to yourself. They do not support your argument. In response to your last question, I never claimed they lost the right. I am claiming they never HAD a right to that mind.

Also, genetic material doesn't belong to anyone. It's biological matter that makes up a certain species.

Oh, well in that case, I'm sure you wouldn't object to me taking the Reapers' biological matter and redistributing it in tiny bits into the atmosphere, right?

And lastly, they didn't choose to become what they are, so you can't blame them for it. A simple principle of morality, right?

I have been very careful to avoid blaming the Reapers for their origins. This is not a question of moral guilt, and I do not consider destroying the Reapers as "punishment." 

No, the the mindset of the original species is completely irrelevant for the validity of the Reapers as a life form, most specifically if they were unwilling. In fact, had they chosen to become a Reaper and support the cycle, *then* you might have a justification to kill them.

So does the mindset of the species matter or not?

There's two arguments here. If a race was transformed unwillingly, then they are not morally responsible for the Reaper, but there has been an injustice performed. If they were transformed willingly, then they are morally responsible, but no injustice has been performed.

Really, I find it mind-boggling how so many of the so-called "Paragons" suddenly discard their morals and become so very Renegade when the old mindset is no longer convenient.

Please. I can make the same argument about Synthesis.

I swear I've never seen so much double-think as in arguments about Synthesis. Forced euthanasia is suddenly ok.

Forced eugenics is suddenly ok, I guess.

The right to exist is denied because of origin.

Yes, that is what I believe, in certain cases. A real world example would be conception as a result of rape.

I don't believe this. Apparently people are so imprisoned in their us-vs-them mentality and trapped in a mindset where the Reapers are "abominations" (an abominable concept to start with) that they'd rather twist their logic into knots than admit the other side has a point.

I think you have great points, and I think that in the vast majority of cases there is an inherent right to exist. I think your stance is perfectly moral, and I think no less of you because you hold this view. Apparently you think differently of me and I regret that.

If you'll notice, I originally said that I find the original race's opinion compelling. The word compelling was meant to imply that I see the validity of both sides but one point in particular leads me to one course of action over another. Hell, my first post on this subject plainly says there are two legitimate ways to view this situation.

Oh, and just to clarify my Synthesis points above, I think there are legitimate reasons for choosing Synthesis, both Paragon and Renegade. Funnily enough, since all contain undesirable acts and consequences, I think that about all 3 endings.

[Jamie9]

Argolas wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

THE CITADEL IS THE CATALYST...

Good to know I am not the only one left thinking that =)

Shep: "I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst."

Catalyst: "No. The Citadel is a part of me."

[dreman9999]

tvman099 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

tvman099 wrote...

Thinking of the Reapers in terms of innocence or guilt is flawed because it implies that they're something more than AIs doing what they were programmed to do. The Reapers are a gun pointed at the head of everyone in the galaxy. The Catalyst is the one with its finger on the trigger.

It's too bad really because it takes away from the sense of badassery you got from Sovereign in ME1.

And the Leviathans are the one who prorogrammed him to fire. If anyone is guilty, its them.

Based on what they said, I wouldn't assume that to be the case. They certainly didn't seem to expect or desire their own genocide.

Even so, they deserved to be wiped out for enslaving everyone in the galaxy for millenia.

They told the catalyst to do what ever it took. What ever it took. They were too arragant to think it would effect them. It's their fault.

[Argolas]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

*Sigh* If someone had hijacked your mind and used your body to kill someone, I would not blame you for it. I would blame the hacker.

The reapers are not hacked. They were made to do this in the first place.

[dreman9999]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

You must realisze that those innocent harvested people inside the Reapers are dead, they are never coming back! Even in Synthesis!
The Reapers are just AI's that are based on the genetic 'memories' of billions of dead people.

If you blended me up into a smoothie and carried me around in a flask, I would still be dead  y'know.

In choosing destroy, all you do is blow up those people's remains, and the machines that murdered them.

They can come back in Synthesis...
http://masseffect.wi...i/Virtual_Alien

[CosmicGnosis]

Argolas wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

*Sigh* If someone had hijacked your mind and used your body to kill someone, I would not blame you for it. I would blame the hacker.

The reapers are not hacked. They were made to do this in the first place.

They are billions of organic minds uploaded into machine bodies. That's what Legion says. Thus, why would these organic minds willingly choose to continue the harvest?

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

But the Reapers did the dirty work and swim in entire ocean planets of blood. If you think they are innocent, mind-controlled or not, you are delusional, or you are hand-waving away their responsibility for their actions, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a geass and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

What do you think? Do you think if someone brainwashed me, that I wouldn't be tried and convicted for crimes I commited under the influence of brainwashing? Lee Boyd Malvo is a perfect case of this.

[dreman9999]

Argolas wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

*Sigh* If someone had hijacked your mind and used your body to kill someone, I would not blame you for it. I would blame the hacker.

The reapers are not hacked. They were made to do this in the first place.

The reapersare the mind of races put in side an immortal machine body. They are basicly reformed indoctrinated people.

[BatmanTurian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

But the Reapers did the dirty work and swim in entire ocean planets of blood. If you think they are innocent, mind-controlled or not, you are delusional, or you are hand-waving away their responsibility for their actions, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

*Sigh* If someone hacked into your mind and used your body to kill someone, I would not blame you for it. I would blame the hacker.

Yet, I committed the act and the family of the victims would demand justice.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:19 .

[CronoDragoon]

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:17 .