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[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

But the Reapers did the dirty work and swim in entire ocean planets of blood. If you think they are innocent, mind-controlled or not, you are delusional, or you are hand-waving away their responsibility for their actions, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a geass and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

What do you think? Do you think if someone brainwashed me, that I wouldn't be tried and convicted for crimes I commited under the influence of brainwashing? Lee Boyd Malvo is a perfect case of this.

That's not the same thing as indoctrination, which is a physical control of the mind.

He still has free will.
The reapers don't.

That is what your not getting.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

[Jamie9]

CronoDragoon wrote...
How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

There's a moment a mere 10 minutes before the final choice that will help people decide their stance on this:

Was Shepard responsible for shooting Anderson? Or was it the Illusive Man's fault?

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

But the Reapers did the dirty work and swim in entire ocean planets of blood. If you think they are innocent, mind-controlled or not, you are delusional, or you are hand-waving away their responsibility for their actions, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

*Sigh* If someone hacked into your mind and used your body to kill someone, I would not blame you for it. I would blame the hacker.

Yet, I committed the act and the victims would demand justice.

So your saying that you would let your self be punished for something you had no control over?

[dreman9999]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

[wright1978]

Jamie9 wrote...

There's a moment a mere 10 minutes before the final choice that will help people decide their stance on this:

Was Shepard responsible for shooting Anderson? Or was it the Illusive Man's fault?

Both.

[BatmanTurian]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Tell me what you think about the case of Lee Boyd Malvo.

[Argolas]

Jamie9 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

THE CITADEL IS THE CATALYST...

Good to know I am not the only one left thinking that =)

Shep: "I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst."

Catalyst: "No. The Citadel is a part of me."

"The catalyst enhances dark energy transmissions and coordinates the entire mass relay network. In your cycle, it is known as the citadel."

The Protheans knew what the catalyst is and they turned out to be right. Someone adapted the crucible to the catalyst, that is the citadel, at some point many cycles ago. They could not have known about the catalyst if it was reaper kid because no organic ever reached it before.

[spotlessvoid]

SAVE THE REAPERS! I call dibs on Harbinger.

[dreman9999]

wright1978 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

There's a moment a mere 10 minutes before the final choice that will help people decide their stance on this:

Was Shepard responsible for shooting Anderson? Or was it the Illusive Man's fault?

Both.

So....some how I/Shepard was willing to Shoot Anderson?

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Please realize that I'm not condemning the Destroy option. You can still choose it, and rationalize it to yourself. You have to rationalize every ending. What I'm saying is that the Reapers, the harvested civilizations, are innocent, and that Destroy unjustly kills them.

And Control unjustly continues their enslavement. And Synthesis unjustly changes everyone.

Basically, every ending is morally questionable.

Yes, I know. But saying the Reapers are innocent is just beyond the pale. They kill people, bring them back to life, and then cruelly sick them on their own species. That's so beyond evil, I'm not even sure why this is an argument.

The Reapers are not the bad guys. The Catalyst is. The Catalyst controls the minds of the harvested civilizations.

But the Reapers did the dirty work and swim in entire ocean planets of blood. If you think they are innocent, mind-controlled or not, you are delusional, or you are hand-waving away their responsibility for their actions, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

*Sigh* If someone hacked into your mind and used your body to kill someone, I would not blame you for it. I would blame the hacker.

Yet, I committed the act and the victims would demand justice.

So your saying that you would let your self be punished for something you had no control over?

I would have to be. Society would demand it. All I'd be able to do is plead for mercy. But that would be up to society and the judicial system. The family of the victims would expect justice.

[wright1978]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Yes

[Hanako Ikezawa]

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Tell me what you think about the case of Lee Boyd Malvo.

A person who was rasied to beleive apoint of veiw., Like any person. He still had the free will to turn a way form how he was raised, like any person.

[Someone With Mass]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

Keyword: "Hypothesis"

By the way, if they were merely "uploaded" and not altered in any way, then where does the Reaper mind come from?

Because I doubt billions of different minds getting repurposed like that would lead to the exact same outcome all the time.

I'd say that they're shaped to suit the Reapers' needs.

Which in the end makes those minds nothing more than information.

Information that is worthless, since the civilizations have been destroyed and the Reapers don't seem willing to share that information with anyone but themselves.

[Jamie9]

wright1978 wrote...
Both.

Interesting. You see, I think it is entirely the Illusive Man's fault, it's his actions, his will.

Care to explain your view to me? I'm interested in hearing another opinion.

[Argolas]

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Yes

The point is: If the reapers are truly 100% controlled by the intelligence, they are not someone, they are something. Mere tools.

[spotlessvoid]

Guys guys! Starchild would never lie. Everything he says is true.. He just wants to help, and the Reapers aren't real. They are just remote controlled. Synthesis IS the final solution.

[wright1978]

Argolas wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Yes

The point is: If the reapers are truly 100% controlled by the intelligence, they are not someone, they are something. Mere tools.

Doesn't matter they still bear some of the responsibility for the actions that they undertook.

[dreman9999]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

I watched the anime but I was not refer to it.   Geass  is an irish cures.

Also......Fatestay /zero >Code Geass

[dreman9999]

Someone With Mass wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

Keyword: "Hypothesis"

By the way, if they were merely "uploaded" and not altered in any way, then where does the Reaper mind come from?

Because I doubt billions of different minds getting repurposed like that would lead to the exact same outcome all the time.

I'd say that they're shaped to suit the Reapers' needs.

Which in the end makes those minds nothing more than information.

Information that is worthless, since the civilizations have been destroyed and the Reapers don't seem willing to share that information with anyone but themselves.

And he was right. Harbinger tells you this a billion times.

[BatmanTurian]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

One of my top favorites too. The story is deep and morally gray and very satisfying. Though the deaths of two of the characters hit me pretty hard.  I'm sure you can guess which two. I will offer no more spoilers.

[CronoDragoon]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Tell me what you think about the case of Lee Boyd Malvo.

Sure, let's examine a quote from the first article the Google Wizard gives us:

Malvo told Lauer that he felt powerless to refuse Muhammad’s orders that he shoot at the victims they had targeted.“I couldn’t say no,” he said. “I had wanted that level of love and acceptance and consistency for all of my life and couldn’t find it.”

End quote.

In this case, Malvo did choose to shoot those people, and the reason was because he wanted to continue to be loved and valued and accepted by Muhammed. He is responsible for his actions because it was possible for him to choose otherwise.

If Muhammed had physically operated on his brain and implanted a mind control chip that made him shoot those people, then he would not be morally responsible.

[dreman9999]

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Yes

How? You did not choose to do it nor was will to.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

I watched the anime but I was not refer to it.   Geass  is an irish cures.

Also......Fatestay /zero >Code Geass

Another great anime, but not really comparable since they're different genres of anime.