985 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

Jamie9 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Both.

Interesting. You see, I think it is entirely the Illusive Man's fault, it's his actions, his will.

Care to explain your view to me? I'm interested in hearing another opinion.

Shep physically shoots him. He bears some of responsibility just as he would if he shot him whilst sleepwalking, as he is physically responsible even if TIM as the controlling force bears primary responsibility.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Tell me what you think about the case of Lee Boyd Malvo.

A person who was rasied to beleive apoint of veiw., Like any person. He still had the free will to turn a way form how he was raised, like any person.

But he didn't. And he didn't have a chance because Muhammed kept him by his side until Lee was fully dedicated to his abuser. Brainwashed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BatmanTurian wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

One of my top favorites too. The story is deep and morally gray and very satisfying. Though the deaths of two of the characters hit me pretty hard.  I'm sure you can guess which two. I will offer no more spoilers.

I have a pretty good idea of who you're taslking about. I love it for the same reasons, and several episodes, especially the final one, really made you think long after it was over. Send me a Pm so that way it won't spoil anything for people here.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:31 .

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

One of my top favorites too. The story is deep and morally gray and very satisfying. Though the deaths of two of the characters hit me pretty hard.  I'm sure you can guess which two. I will offer no more spoilers.

Alex...............

[CronoDragoon]

wright1978 wrote...
Yes

Okay, then how do you feel my example of accidentally killing a girl because another car smashed into you? Should you be the one punished? Because in this case you are also "physically responsible" to use your own words.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:31 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Jamie9 wrote...

There's a moment a mere 10 minutes before the final choice that will help people decide their stance on this:

Was Shepard responsible for shooting Anderson? Or was it the Illusive Man's fault?

Brilliant. I can't believe I didn't think of that.

[spotlessvoid]

Starchild is like someone robbing you at gunpoint, then you disarm him and take the gun. He then says:

"I know you're thinking of killing me. But there's a better solution. Kill yourself, and I promise I'll never rob anyone again"

Seems a lot of you would be laid out on the floor, bleeding profusely from a self inflicted gun shot wound to the head.

[Argolas]

wright1978 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Yes

The point is: If the reapers are truly 100% controlled by the intelligence, they are not someone, they are something. Mere tools.

Doesn't matter they still bear some of the responsibility for the actions that they undertook.

Irrelevant. Two possibilities:

1) They are responsible for their actions.
=> They can't be trusted and must be destroyed.

2) They are mere tools.
=> They are dangerous and since they are only things, they can be destroyed without moral issues.

As I said before: Either way is fine with me. My choice is made.

[clennon8]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild is like someone robbing you at gunpoint, then you disarm him and take the gun. He then says:

"I know you're thinking of killing me. But there's a better solution. Kill yourself, and I promise I'll never rob anyone again"

Seems a lot of you would be laid out on the floor, bleeding profusely from a self inflicted gun shot wound to the head.

Synth-head response:  "Why would he lie?  He coulda shot you before.  Therefore he's totally on the up and up."

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Tell me what you think about the case of Lee Boyd Malvo.

A person who was rasied to beleive apoint of veiw., Like any person. He still had the free will to turn a way form how he was raised, like any person.

But he didn't. And he didn't have a chance because Muhammed kept him by his side until Lee was fully dedicated to his abuser. Brainwashed.

Sorry. He still could of said no. Hewas emotionally monipulated, like any child would by their parents. But he still had free will.

That's not the case with the reapers. This is a case of nano machines diving into their minds and physically making them do things. Programing them to do things.

They had no free will.


Lee Boyd Malvo case is of his free will being manipulated.

The reapers case ois their free will being taken a way.

[spotlessvoid]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

There's a moment a mere 10 minutes before the final choice that will help people decide their stance on this:

Was Shepard responsible for shooting Anderson? Or was it the Illusive Man's fault?

Brilliant. I can't believe I didn't think of that.

Right. No chance starchild is lying. None. No chance he's a Reaper projection either. He's your friend. If the "leader" of the Reapers are harmless, how could anything else be true. Lambs to the slaughter

[dreman9999]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild is like someone robbing you at gunpoint, then you disarm him and take the gun. He then says:

"I know you're thinking of killing me. But there's a better solution. Kill yourself, and I promise I'll never rob anyone again"

Seems a lot of you would be laid out on the floor, bleeding profusely from a self inflicted gun shot wound to the head.

More like he's asking you to control him or tells you at that killing him killed a bunch of people.

You point only covers synthesis.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

One of my top favorites too. The story is deep and morally gray and very satisfying. Though the deaths of two of the characters hit me pretty hard.  I'm sure you can guess which two. I will offer no more spoilers.

Alex...............

There's noboby in Code Geass named Alex, though there is a mech called the Alexander.

[BatmanTurian]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Tell me what you think about the case of Lee Boyd Malvo.

Sure, let's examine a quote from the first article the Google Wizard gives us:

Malvo told Lauer that he felt powerless to refuse Muhammad’s orders that he shoot at the victims they had targeted.“I couldn’t say no,” he said. “I had wanted that level of love and acceptance and consistency for all of my life and couldn’t find it.”

End quote.

In this case, Malvo did choose to shoot those people, and the reason was because he wanted to continue to be loved and valued and accepted by Muhammed. He is responsible for his actions because it was possible for him to choose otherwise.

If Muhammed had physically operated on his brain and implanted a mind control chip that made him shoot those people, then he would not be morally responsible.

But then there's this:

According to Craig Cooley, one of Malvo's defense attorneys, Malvo believed Muhammad when he told him that the $10 million ransom sought from the US government to stop the sniper killings would be used to establish a Utopian society for 140 black homeless children on a Canadian compound.


Under a change of venue, the trial was moved over 150 miles away to the city of Chesapeake in southeastern Virginia. He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to all charges on the grounds that he was under Muhammad's complete control. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified that Muhammad, a member of Nation of Islam,
had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion
attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only pure black young
persons somewhere in Canada.

[dreman9999]

wright1978 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Both.

Interesting. You see, I think it is entirely the Illusive Man's fault, it's his actions, his will.

Care to explain your view to me? I'm interested in hearing another opinion.

Shep physically shoots him. He bears some of responsibility just as he would if he shot him whilst sleepwalking, as he is physically responsible even if TIM as the controlling force bears primary responsibility.

He did not command his hand to fire the gun.
TIM dug into Sheps mind and made his hand fire.

[Someone With Mass]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild is like someone robbing you at gunpoint, then you disarm him and take the gun. He then says:

"I know you're thinking of killing me. But there's a better solution. Kill yourself, and I promise I'll never rob anyone again"

Seems a lot of you would be laid out on the floor, bleeding profusely from a self inflicted gun shot wound to the head.

Nope. I'd take him to the local authorities. Unless he wounds me first. Then I'd shoot him in the leg.

Eye for an eye and all that.

[DeinonSlayer]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

There's a moment a mere 10 minutes before the final choice that will help people decide their stance on this:

Was Shepard responsible for shooting Anderson? Or was it the Illusive Man's fault?

Brilliant. I can't believe I didn't think of that.

Flipside of that argument is: TIM shoots himself to free himself from his bondage.

Destroy does this for the Reapers. Control merely chains them to a new master. Synthesis presumably leaves them under the old one, unless you delve into headcanon.

Isn't Starbrat supposed to be the collective consciousness of the Reapers, though? If that's the case, then he's sitting there telling you that yes - the cycles, and all atrocities associated with them, were his doing - and he (they) makes no apologies for it.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

One of my top favorites too. The story is deep and morally gray and very satisfying. Though the deaths of two of the characters hit me pretty hard.  I'm sure you can guess which two. I will offer no more spoilers.

Alex...............

Shirley and Euphemia

[dreman9999]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

One of my top favorites too. The story is deep and morally gray and very satisfying. Though the deaths of two of the characters hit me pretty hard.  I'm sure you can guess which two. I will offer no more spoilers.

Alex...............

There's noboby in Code Geass named Alex, though there is a mech called the Alexander.

I though he was take about Fate stay/zero.

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Yes

Now I truly despair of humanity.... tell me you aren't serious.

[CronoDragoon]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Under a change of venue, the trial was moved over 150 miles away to the city of Chesapeake in southeastern Virginia. He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to all charges on the grounds that he was under Muhammad's complete control. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified that Muhammad, a member of Nation of Islam,
had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion
attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only pure black young
persons somewhere in Canada.

All that is telling me is that Malvo chose to do evil things for what he was led to believe were good reasons. Which still makes him morally responsible for his actions. 

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:40 .

[Foxhound2121]

clennon8 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I can't believe Bioware pulled this off. It's fascinating..especially you synthesis people.

It's brilliant, isn't it?

Indeed.  It's like some people run right up to the Reapers with open arms and say "Please indoctrinate me!  Save me from this wretched existence!"

[BatmanTurian]

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Yes

Now I truly despair of humanity.... tell me you aren't serious.

Tell me that you aren't serious, hand-waving away the deaths of trillions.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Tell me what you think about the case of Lee Boyd Malvo.

Sure, let's examine a quote from the first article the Google Wizard gives us:

Malvo told Lauer that he felt powerless to refuse Muhammad’s orders that he shoot at the victims they had targeted.“I couldn’t say no,” he said. “I had wanted that level of love and acceptance and consistency for all of my life and couldn’t find it.”

End quote.

In this case, Malvo did choose to shoot those people, and the reason was because he wanted to continue to be loved and valued and accepted by Muhammed. He is responsible for his actions because it was possible for him to choose otherwise.

If Muhammed had physically operated on his brain and implanted a mind control chip that made him shoot those people, then he would not be morally responsible.

But then there's this:

According to Craig Cooley, one of Malvo's defense attorneys, Malvo believed Muhammad when he told him that the $10 million ransom sought from the US government to stop the sniper killings would be used to establish a Utopian society for 140 black homeless children on a Canadian compound.


Under a change of venue, the trial was moved over 150 miles away to the city of Chesapeake in southeastern Virginia. He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to all charges on the grounds that he was under Muhammad's complete control. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified that Muhammad, a member of Nation of Islam,
had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion
attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only pure black young
persons somewhere in Canada.

I can make a comment ageinst you point but....Isn't that comment supporting the op's point?