985 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

One of my top favorites too. The story is deep and morally gray and very satisfying. Though the deaths of two of the characters hit me pretty hard.  I'm sure you can guess which two. I will offer no more spoilers.

Alex...............

Shirley and Euphemia

Those were sad ones. As for me, my top two would be Rolo(I hated him for obvious reasons until his sacrifice where he earned all his points back) and in order to avoid major spoilers, the target of the Zero Requiem though this one hit me in a different way.

[spotlessvoid]

Lol no.

Control is the robber saying lets rob people together. Friends, right? Awesome, let me get my gun back...

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

While I have nothing to contribute to this thread

Nice thread.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Yes

Now I truly despair of humanity.... tell me you aren't serious.

Tell me that you aren't serious, hand-waving away the deaths of trillions.

So you going to blame beings that are physically rewire ageinst their will ot harvest?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So? If someone took control of your body or put you under a GEASS and made you kill billions...Who is at fault , you or the person who took control of you?

I love you right now!

This is conserning anime, isn't it?

Yes it is. Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion is my all time favorite anime so seeing someone reference it, especially in a thread like this, literally made my week.

One of my top favorites too. The story is deep and morally gray and very satisfying. Though the deaths of two of the characters hit me pretty hard.  I'm sure you can guess which two. I will offer no more spoilers.

Alex...............

There's noboby in Code Geass named Alex, though there is a mech called the Alexander.

I though he was take about Fate stay/zero.

Oh, you were refering to that one. I agree, it made me sad.

[CosmicGnosis]

So Shepard is guilty of shooting Anderson. Let's think about that. The Illusive Man took control of Shepard's body, and used it to shoot Anderson. Thus, Shepard is guilty.

Incredible. What a loathsome belief.

[BatmanTurian]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Under a change of venue, the trial was moved over 150 miles away to the city of Chesapeake in southeastern Virginia. He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to all charges on the grounds that he was under Muhammad's complete control. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified that Muhammad, a member of Nation of Islam,
had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion
attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only pure black young
persons somewhere in Canada.

All that is telling me is that Malvo chose to do evil things for what he was led to believe were good reasons. Which still makes him morally responsible for his actions. 

He was also a sociopath since he tortured small animals, so there's that. I'll concede or call it a draw.

[dreman9999]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Lol no.

Control is the robber saying lets rob people together. Friends, right? Awesome, let me get my gun back...

In control I'm in charge and I'm not robbing people.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Both. society will see no difference and see you as a monster. (and yes, I have seen Code Geass)

How society sees you is irrelevant to the truth of your guilt. In the case of the Reapers, the person controlling them freely admitted such. We know they were not in control. As such, they are not responsible for their actions.

I want a straight answer: Is someone who cannot choose to act otherwise - cannot even choose to not act at all - responsible for their actions?

Yes

Now I truly despair of humanity.... tell me you aren't serious.

Tell me that you aren't serious, hand-waving away the deaths of trillions.

So you going to blame beings that are physically rewire ageinst their will ot harvest?

Did the actions not happen? Are those beings not dead?

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Lol no.

Control is the robber saying lets rob people together. Friends, right? Awesome, let me get my gun back...

In control I'm in charge and I'm not robbing people.

But you run one hell of a plantation.

[BatmanTurian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

So Shepard is guilty of shooting Anderson. Let's think about that. The Illusive Man took control of Shepard's body, and used it to shoot Anderson. Thus, Shepard is guilty.

Incredible. What a loathsome belief.

So is enslaving or genetically raping others.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Under a change of venue, the trial was moved over 150 miles away to the city of Chesapeake in southeastern Virginia. He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to all charges on the grounds that he was under Muhammad's complete control. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified that Muhammad, a member of Nation of Islam,
had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion
attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only pure black young
persons somewhere in Canada.

All that is telling me is that Malvo chose to do evil things for what he was led to believe were good reasons. Which still makes him morally responsible for his actions. 

He was also a sociopath since he tortured small animals, so there's that. I'll concede or call it a draw.

No...

The rule still says he was not at fault and thus made a ruling to reabilitate him. That's a point to the op's. This is not a draw. This clearly shows that it 'sobvious in case where you have no control over yourself at no fault of your previous actions you not a fault.

[CronoDragoon]

dreman9999 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Lol no.

Control is the robber saying lets rob people together. Friends, right? Awesome, let me get my gun back...

In control I'm in charge and I'm not robbing people.

Control is actually an interesting scenario. Let us assume that the Reapers do have their own minds separate from the Catalyst. Then it would seem that a benevolent Sheaper could decide to let them act of their own accord, so long as they do not attempt to the conquer the universe or whatever - then he would step in and control them otherwise. It seems to me, then, that they are then being given the same amount of freedom as any member of society, the only difference being a violation of society's rules would be met with a swifter and more concrete rebuttal by Shepard-AI.

Obviously Control still has risks insofar like the Shepard-AI coming to immoral conclusions like the Catalyst, but in terms of "The Reapers are slaves" I think it's possible to conceive of a situation otherwise.

Anyway, not exactly related but interesting to me.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:50 .

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Lol no.

Control is the robber saying lets rob people together. Friends, right? Awesome, let me get my gun back...

In control I'm in charge and I'm not robbing people.

But you run one hell of a plantation.

What plantation. If I say all life rule themselves..That's that. No police state at all.

[wright1978]

dreman9999 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Both.

Interesting. You see, I think it is entirely the Illusive Man's fault, it's his actions, his will.

Care to explain your view to me? I'm interested in hearing another opinion.

Shep physically shoots him. He bears some of responsibility just as he would if he shot him whilst sleepwalking, as he is physically responsible even if TIM as the controlling force bears primary responsibility.

He did not command his hand to fire the gun.
TIM dug into Sheps mind and made his hand fire.

If he shot him whilst sleepwalking or if his finger involuntarily twitched he would still be accidentally responsible.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

So Shepard is guilty of shooting Anderson. Let's think about that. The Illusive Man took control of Shepard's body, and used it to shoot Anderson. Thus, Shepard is guilty.

Incredible. What a loathsome belief.

So is enslaving or genetically raping others.

And the reapers where forced into doing that.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Under a change of venue, the trial was moved over 150 miles away to the city of Chesapeake in southeastern Virginia. He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to all charges on the grounds that he was under Muhammad's complete control. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified that Muhammad, a member of Nation of Islam,
had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion
attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only pure black young
persons somewhere in Canada.

All that is telling me is that Malvo chose to do evil things for what he was led to believe were good reasons. Which still makes him morally responsible for his actions. 

He was also a sociopath since he tortured small animals, so there's that. I'll concede or call it a draw.

No...

The rule still says he was not at fault and thus made a ruling to reabilitate him. That's a point to the op's. This is not a draw. This clearly shows that it 'sobvious in case where you have no control over yourself at no fault of your previous actions you not a fault.

His actions still caused harm. That's why he was tried and put into rehabilitation in the first place.

[clennon8]

A lot of white noise in this thread. Much arguing about things that are tangential at best. People scrambling about, trying to assemble straw men.

[CosmicGnosis]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

So Shepard is guilty of shooting Anderson. Let's think about that. The Illusive Man took control of Shepard's body, and used it to shoot Anderson. Thus, Shepard is guilty.

Incredible. What a loathsome belief.

So is enslaving or genetically raping others.

I never supported those actions.

[dreman9999]

wright1978 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Both.

Interesting. You see, I think it is entirely the Illusive Man's fault, it's his actions, his will.

Care to explain your view to me? I'm interested in hearing another opinion.

Shep physically shoots him. He bears some of responsibility just as he would if he shot him whilst sleepwalking, as he is physically responsible even if TIM as the controlling force bears primary responsibility.

He did not command his hand to fire the gun.
TIM dug into Sheps mind and made his hand fire.

If he shot him whilst sleepwalking or if his finger involuntarily twitched he would still be accidentally responsible.

Not the same cause. We have a clear illustartion of cause and effect here. Someone forcible went into someones mind and forced their body to act.
That means the person shooting is not at fault. They have no choice in the matter.

[CosmicGnosis]

Only now do I truly understand the blind hatred that consumes this forum. I'm stunned.

I'm not even arguing for Synthesis. I'm just saying that the Reapers have no control over their actions. I'm not even excusing the Catalyst. I have no issue with your disgust of the Catalyst. I don't even care if you choose Destroy. Maybe it is the best way to go. I don't know. Control continues their enslavement, and that's bad too. Synthesis forcibly changes everyone in some ambiguous way. That's also bad.

[CronoDragoon]

wright1978 wrote...

If he shot him whilst sleepwalking or if his finger involuntarily twitched he would still be accidentally responsible.

Because he did not take the proper reasonable precautions to prevent this from happening. In the case of the Reapers and Shepard, that qualification doesn't apply.

[BatmanTurian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

So Shepard is guilty of shooting Anderson. Let's think about that. The Illusive Man took control of Shepard's body, and used it to shoot Anderson. Thus, Shepard is guilty.

Incredible. What a loathsome belief.

So is enslaving or genetically raping others.

I never supported those actions.

Never said you did, but if you really think killing the reapers is evil, those other choices are really no better.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Under a change of venue, the trial was moved over 150 miles away to the city of Chesapeake in southeastern Virginia. He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to all charges on the grounds that he was under Muhammad's complete control. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified that Muhammad, a member of Nation of Islam,
had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion
attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only pure black young
persons somewhere in Canada.

All that is telling me is that Malvo chose to do evil things for what he was led to believe were good reasons. Which still makes him morally responsible for his actions. 

He was also a sociopath since he tortured small animals, so there's that. I'll concede or call it a draw.

No...

The rule still says he was not at fault and thus made a ruling to reabilitate him. That's a point to the op's. This is not a draw. This clearly shows that it 'sobvious in case where you have no control over yourself at no fault of your previous actions you not a fault.

His actions still caused harm. That's why he was tried and put into rehabilitation in the first place.

Rehabilitation does not mean punish. He was not punished and was not found at fault. So they tried to help him get better.
That still is a point to the op.

[BatmanTurian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Only now do I truly understand the blind hatred that consumes this forum. I'm stunned.

I'm not even arguing for Synthesis. I'm just saying that the Reapers have no control over their actions. I'm not even excusing the Catalyst. I have no issue with your disgust of the Catalyst. I don't even care if you choose Destroy. Maybe it is the best way to go. I don't know. Control continues their enslavement, and that's bad too. Synthesis forcibly changes everyone in some ambiguous way. That's also bad.

Yeah, that's kind of the gist of all this.