985 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Under a change of venue, the trial was moved over 150 miles away to the city of Chesapeake in southeastern Virginia. He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to all charges on the grounds that he was under Muhammad's complete control. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified that Muhammad, a member of Nation of Islam,
had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion
attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only pure black young
persons somewhere in Canada.

All that is telling me is that Malvo chose to do evil things for what he was led to believe were good reasons. Which still makes him morally responsible for his actions. 

He was also a sociopath since he tortured small animals, so there's that. I'll concede or call it a draw.

No...

The rule still says he was not at fault and thus made a ruling to reabilitate him. That's a point to the op's. This is not a draw. This clearly shows that it 'sobvious in case where you have no control over yourself at no fault of your previous actions you not a fault.

His actions still caused harm. That's why he was tried and put into rehabilitation in the first place.

Rehabilitation does not mean punish. He was not punished and was not found at fault. So they tried to help him get better.
That still is a point to the op.

you don't consider being removed from society and being changed against your will (even if for the better) a punishment?

[CronoDragoon]

dreman9999 wrote...
No...

The rule still says he was not at fault and thus made a ruling to reabilitate him. That's a point to the op's. This is not a draw. This clearly shows that it 'sobvious in case where you have no control over yourself at no fault of your previous actions you not a fault.

But in this situation, he clearly decided to remain under Muhammed's control. His own quote that he did it for Muhammed's love and affection tell me this. 

One thing we can agree on is the case isn't comparable to the Reapers, since we KNOW the Reapers had no choice in the matter.

[BatmanTurian]

clennon8 wrote...

A lot of white noise in this thread. Much arguing about things that are tangential at best. People scrambling about, trying to assemble straw men.

So, BSN on your average day then.

[BatmanTurian]

CronoDragoon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
No...

The rule still says he was not at fault and thus made a ruling to reabilitate him. That's a point to the op's. This is not a draw. This clearly shows that it 'sobvious in case where you have no control over yourself at no fault of your previous actions you not a fault.

But in this situation, he clearly decided to remain under Muhammed's control. His own quote that he did it for Muhammed's love and affection tell me this. 

One thing we can agree on is the case isn't comparable to the Reapers, since we KNOW the Reapers had no choice in the matter.

Thus why I conceded the point to you on that.

[CronoDragoon]

Edit: Yup.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:58 .

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Under a change of venue, the trial was moved over 150 miles away to the city of Chesapeake in southeastern Virginia. He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to all charges on the grounds that he was under Muhammad's complete control. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified that Muhammad, a member of Nation of Islam,
had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion
attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only pure black young
persons somewhere in Canada.

All that is telling me is that Malvo chose to do evil things for what he was led to believe were good reasons. Which still makes him morally responsible for his actions. 

He was also a sociopath since he tortured small animals, so there's that. I'll concede or call it a draw.

No...

The rule still says he was not at fault and thus made a ruling to reabilitate him. That's a point to the op's. This is not a draw. This clearly shows that it 'sobvious in case where you have no control over yourself at no fault of your previous actions you not a fault.

His actions still caused harm. That's why he was tried and put into rehabilitation in the first place.

Rehabilitation does not mean punish. He was not punished and was not found at fault. So they tried to help him get better.
That still is a point to the op.

you don't consider being removed from society and being changed against your will (even if for the better) a punishment?

And now were going into the Ardat-Yakshi's case.

It's more of a case to make sure no one else is harmed. Not the shooter nor the people of the state. It's not a punishment  but it's not an ideal situation. It's a case of trying to have the lease harm possible. What happen to him is better then killing him, jailing him for life, or sending him to a country or culture that would fuel his beliefs.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:01 .

[Foxhound2121]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Only now do I truly understand the blind hatred that consumes this forum. I'm stunned.

I'm not even arguing for Synthesis. I'm just saying that the Reapers have no control over their actions. I'm not even excusing the Catalyst. I have no issue with your disgust of the Catalyst. I don't even care if you choose Destroy. Maybe it is the best way to go. I don't know. Control continues their enslavement, and that's bad too. Synthesis forcibly changes everyone in some ambiguous way. That's also bad.

They are all morally questionable, but synthesis is obviously the worst as the the catalyst is the true master of the reapers. Control and destroy would seem to be the necessary evil. Whereas synthesis is preferred wish of a deranged mass murderer.

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:05 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Only now do I truly understand the blind hatred that consumes this forum. I'm stunned.

I'm not even arguing for Synthesis. I'm just saying that the Reapers have no control over their actions. I'm not even excusing the Catalyst. I have no issue with your disgust of the Catalyst. I don't even care if you choose Destroy. Maybe it is the best way to go. I don't know. Control continues their enslavement, and that's bad too. Synthesis forcibly changes everyone in some ambiguous way. That's also bad.

They are all morally questionable, but synthesis is obviously the worst as the the catalyst is the true master of the reapers. Control and destroy would seem to be the necessary evil. Whereas synthesis is preferred wish of a deranged mass murderer.

I'm totally fine with that. I haven't chosen my canon ending yet. I struggle with all of them. You can argue that Destroy is the most justified choice. What's pathetic, however, is the attempt to portray the Reapers as pure evil and completely responsible for their actions, when it is clear that the Catalyst is the true culprit.

Yes, destroying them may be a necessary evil, but it's still an "evil".

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:09 .

[BatmanTurian]

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

[wright1978]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

That's the message that should pop up when anyone logs into a messageboard.

[BatmanTurian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Only now do I truly understand the blind hatred that consumes this forum. I'm stunned.

I'm not even arguing for Synthesis. I'm just saying that the Reapers have no control over their actions. I'm not even excusing the Catalyst. I have no issue with your disgust of the Catalyst. I don't even care if you choose Destroy. Maybe it is the best way to go. I don't know. Control continues their enslavement, and that's bad too. Synthesis forcibly changes everyone in some ambiguous way. That's also bad.

They are all morally questionable, but synthesis is obviously the worst as the the catalyst is the true master of the reapers. Control and destroy would seem to be the necessary evil. Whereas synthesis is preferred wish of a deranged mass murderer.

I'm totally fine with that. I haven't chosen my canon ending yet. I struggle with all of them. You can argue that Destroy is the most justified choice. What's pathetic, however, is the attempt to portray the Reapers as pure evil and completely responsible for their actions, when it is clear that the Catalyst is the true culprit.

Yes, destroying them may be a necessary evil, but it's still an "evil".

There is no good or evil. All of life is shades of grey. Eating to stay alive is evil because you're stealing that energy from something that was once alive. Giving things away might seem good, but ultimately you are doing it for selfish reasons, either because it makes you feel good or because others will think better of you. Good and evil are moral and social constructs and are subjective and relative at best.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:12 .

[Zooter]

clennon8 wrote...

A lot of white noise in this thread. Much arguing about things that are tangential at best. People scrambling about, trying to assemble straw men.

 

Who said anything about assembling straw men? I'm just trying to get the whole BSN into bed.........wait I mean ummmmmm??????

I should go!!!

[BatmanTurian]

wright1978 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

That's the message that should pop up when anyone logs into a messageboard.

We get so caught up in debate that we start believing we can evangelize and bring people over to our way of thinking. That rarely happens. People have opinions for their own reasons and if they believe those reasons are logical and just, they will rarely stray from them.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

Ok, then...Just as long as you know nothing supports your case that they have free will still.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:17 .

[CosmicGnosis]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Only now do I truly understand the blind hatred that consumes this forum. I'm stunned.

I'm not even arguing for Synthesis. I'm just saying that the Reapers have no control over their actions. I'm not even excusing the Catalyst. I have no issue with your disgust of the Catalyst. I don't even care if you choose Destroy. Maybe it is the best way to go. I don't know. Control continues their enslavement, and that's bad too. Synthesis forcibly changes everyone in some ambiguous way. That's also bad.

They are all morally questionable, but synthesis is obviously the worst as the the catalyst is the true master of the reapers. Control and destroy would seem to be the necessary evil. Whereas synthesis is preferred wish of a deranged mass murderer.

I'm totally fine with that. I haven't chosen my canon ending yet. I struggle with all of them. You can argue that Destroy is the most justified choice. What's pathetic, however, is the attempt to portray the Reapers as pure evil and completely responsible for their actions, when it is clear that the Catalyst is the true culprit.

Yes, destroying them may be a necessary evil, but it's still an "evil".

There is no good or evil. All of life is shades of grey. Eating to stay alive is evil because you're stealing that energy from something that was once alive. Giving things away might seem good, but ultimately you are doing it for selfish reasons, either because it makes you feel good or because others will think better of you. Good and evil are moral and social constructs and are subjective and relative at best.

I lose no matter what I say, right? I agree that there is no good or evil, but I decided to use those terms because I was worried that the people in this thread would declare me an obvious Reaper sympathizer if I claimed that the Catalyst isn't inherently evil.

So yeah, I don't think the Catalyst is evil. I don't accept the concept of evil. It's loaded with religious baggage.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:19 .

[Bill Casey]

Synthesis is a compromise...
You destroy everyone a little, and you control everyone a little...

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

Ok, then...Just as long as you know nothing supports your case that they have free will still.

No need for snipes there, buddy. I believe my case is supported, you believe yours is supported. Let it go.

[BatmanTurian]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Only now do I truly understand the blind hatred that consumes this forum. I'm stunned.

I'm not even arguing for Synthesis. I'm just saying that the Reapers have no control over their actions. I'm not even excusing the Catalyst. I have no issue with your disgust of the Catalyst. I don't even care if you choose Destroy. Maybe it is the best way to go. I don't know. Control continues their enslavement, and that's bad too. Synthesis forcibly changes everyone in some ambiguous way. That's also bad.

They are all morally questionable, but synthesis is obviously the worst as the the catalyst is the true master of the reapers. Control and destroy would seem to be the necessary evil. Whereas synthesis is preferred wish of a deranged mass murderer.

I'm totally fine with that. I haven't chosen my canon ending yet. I struggle with all of them. You can argue that Destroy is the most justified choice. What's pathetic, however, is the attempt to portray the Reapers as pure evil and completely responsible for their actions, when it is clear that the Catalyst is the true culprit.

Yes, destroying them may be a necessary evil, but it's still an "evil".

There is no good or evil. All of life is shades of grey. Eating to stay alive is evil because you're stealing that energy from something that was once alive. Giving things away might seem good, but ultimately you are doing it for selfish reasons, either because it makes you feel good or because others will think better of you. Good and evil are moral and social constructs and are subjective and relative at best.

I lose no matter what I say, right? I agree that there is no good or evil, but I decided to use those terms because I was worried that the people in this thread would declare me an obvious Reaper sympathizer if I claimed that the Catalyst isn't inherently evil.

So yeah, I don't think the Catalyst is evil. I don't accept the concept of evil. It's loaded with religious baggage.

Agreed, but it's understandable when we sometimes slip into that language. It's history's baggage we haven't shrugged off yet.

[CosmicGnosis]

I don't wish to make any enemies here. I wonder if BioWare ever anticipated just how badly they would divide the fanbase with these endings. People accusing each other of being monsters...

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:28 .

[AresKeith]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I don't wish to make any enemies here. I wonder if BioWare ever anticipated just how badly they would divide the fanbase with these endings. People accusing each other of being monsters...

That's what I said a while back, the endings divided and damaged the fanbase really bad.

This is part of why I said the endings shouldn't have been this way

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

Ok, then...Just as long as you know nothing supports your case that they have free will still.

No need for snipes there, buddy. I believe my case is supported, you believe yours is supported. Let it go.

I'm not saying you case is wrong....But what is it supported by?

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

Ok, then...Just as long as you know nothing supports your case that they have free will still.

No need for snipes there, buddy. I believe my case is supported, you believe yours is supported. Let it go.

I'm not saying you case is wrong....But what is it supported by?

It doesn't matter, man. My beliefs are mine, yours are yours. I have my logic which you find lacking and you have yours which I find lacking. We're getting nowhere fast.

[Bill Casey]

Back when Arrival came out, were there people on here complaining that they couldn't choose not to slam an asteroid into a relay, and they wanted to side with Kenson?

Modifié par Bill Casey, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:40 .

[dreman9999]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Only now do I truly understand the blind hatred that consumes this forum. I'm stunned.

I'm not even arguing for Synthesis. I'm just saying that the Reapers have no control over their actions. I'm not even excusing the Catalyst. I have no issue with your disgust of the Catalyst. I don't even care if you choose Destroy. Maybe it is the best way to go. I don't know. Control continues their enslavement, and that's bad too. Synthesis forcibly changes everyone in some ambiguous way. That's also bad.

They are all morally questionable, but synthesis is obviously the worst as the the catalyst is the true master of the reapers. Control and destroy would seem to be the necessary evil. Whereas synthesis is preferred wish of a deranged mass murderer.

I'm totally fine with that. I haven't chosen my canon ending yet. I struggle with all of them. You can argue that Destroy is the most justified choice. What's pathetic, however, is the attempt to portray the Reapers as pure evil and completely responsible for their actions, when it is clear that the Catalyst is the true culprit.

Yes, destroying them may be a necessary evil, but it's still an "evil".

There is no good or evil. All of life is shades of grey. Eating to stay alive is evil because you're stealing that energy from something that was once alive. Giving things away might seem good, but ultimately you are doing it for selfish reasons, either because it makes you feel good or because others will think better of you. Good and evil are moral and social constructs and are subjective and relative at best.

I lose no matter what I say, right? I agree that there is no good or evil, but I decided to use those terms because I was worried that the people in this thread would declare me an obvious Reaper sympathizer if I claimed that the Catalyst isn't inherently evil.

So yeah, I don't think the Catalyst is evil. I don't accept the concept of evil. It's loaded with religious baggage.

As the case of losing, It more of an issue of you goal.At the least, you lose a little. At the most you lose everything.

My goal was to save the people I care for and love in the ME universe  or as much of them as I possibley can and to save the races of the ME universe form being killed off by the reapers or as much of them as I possibley can. Myself/My shepard living in the end was not a nessisary objective, but one if possible I would no object. Stay grounded in my morals  to do my goals is not a nessisary obgective ether, but if possible I would not object.


That my goal. I lost a little and a won a little, but in the end, the galexy is still turning with the people I care fore and the races I save/could save.

Is that not a victory?