985 réponses à ce sujet

[drayfish]

 
Much as people are already expressing on this thread, I find it truly sad that Bioware's legacy to a franchise that once celebrated inclusivity and wonder is a series of semantic squabbles about which atrocity is 'less horrifying' than the others, with everyone just being forced to accept, by the mechanics of the story, that they only way people can ever live in peace is if someone - Reaper or 'hero' - ignores free will and inflicts a solution upon them.
 
Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.
 

Modifié par drayfish, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:42 .

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

Ok, then...Just as long as you know nothing supports your case that they have free will still.

No need for snipes there, buddy. I believe my case is supported, you believe yours is supported. Let it go.

I'm not saying you case is wrong....But what is it supported by?

It doesn't matter, man. My beliefs are mine, yours are yours. I have my logic which you find lacking and you have yours which I find lacking. We're getting nowhere fast.

That was my point. I'm not saying you wrong just understand their is no point supporting what you believe.

[Wayning_Star]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

Ok, then...Just as long as you know nothing supports your case that they have free will still.

No need for snipes there, buddy. I believe my case is supported, you believe yours is supported. Let it go.

I'm not saying you case is wrong....But what is it supported by?

It doesn't matter, man. My beliefs are mine, yours are yours. I have my logic which you find lacking and you have yours which I find lacking. We're getting nowhere fast.

tis the basis for synthesis, this.. as the cycle is just that..for billions of years in the MEU. A draw, per trap. Technology vs common sense.  If you build it, they will come.  Who engineered the choices,er... four demands?

(my guess: Human Nature

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

 
Much as people are already expressing on this thread, I find it truly sad that Bioware's legacy to a series that once celebrated inclusivity and wonder is a series of semantic squabbles about which atrocity is 'less horrifying' than the others, with everyone just being forced to accept, by the mechanics of the story, that they only way people can ever live in peace is if someone - Reaper or 'hero' - ignores free will and inflicts a solution upon them.
 
Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.
 

BW started out this series asking the player what they were willing to do and sacrife to stop an unstoppable force. That has not changed.
You have to understand that you may have to get you hands dirty to do what must be done. BW made thisa point when they explained what the spectru's are and do.

You issue is that you could not stay on the high moral ground to save the galexy, but you missing here is that ME was  never about stay on the high moral ground to save the galexy.

[Wayning_Star]

drayfish wrote...

 
Much as people are already expressing on this thread, I find it truly sad that Bioware's legacy to a franchise that once celebrated inclusivity and wonder is a series of semantic squabbles about which atrocity is 'less horrifying' than the others, with everyone just being forced to accept, by the mechanics of the story, that they only way people can ever live in peace is if someone - Reaper or 'hero' - ignores free will and inflicts a solution upon them.
 
Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.
 

actually, there is 'free will' but.. that will would have to be pointed at NO technology, as it's side effects are indeed toxic, as demonstrated here. Folks cannot deal with that reality, they either destroy or walk away, as control is impossible, apparently and synthesis is just toooo close to the truth of it..lol

[Xilizhra]

Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.

Wait, what? Surely you realize there are works of fiction which exhort people to commit atrocities IRL?

[dreman9999]

Wayning_Star wrote...

drayfish wrote...

 
Much as people are already expressing on this thread, I find it truly sad that Bioware's legacy to a franchise that once celebrated inclusivity and wonder is a series of semantic squabbles about which atrocity is 'less horrifying' than the others, with everyone just being forced to accept, by the mechanics of the story, that they only way people can ever live in peace is if someone - Reaper or 'hero' - ignores free will and inflicts a solution upon them.
 
Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.
 

actually, there is 'free will' but.. that will would have to be pointed at NO technology, as it's side effects are indeed toxic, as demonstrated here. Folks cannot deal with that reality, they either destroy or walk away, as control is impossible, apparently and synthesis is just toooo close to the truth of it..lol

Synthesis is just letting technology control us.

[dreman9999]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.

Wait, what? Surely you realize there are works of fiction which exhort people to commit atrocities IRL?

Ender's Game...

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I don't wish to make any enemies here. I wonder if BioWare ever anticipated just how badly they would divide the fanbase with these endings. People accusing each other of being monsters...

It really is sad isn't it?  But BioWare aid they wanted to cause discussion, and well they got it.

[Wayning_Star]

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

 
Much as people are already expressing on this thread, I find it truly sad that Bioware's legacy to a series that once celebrated inclusivity and wonder is a series of semantic squabbles about which atrocity is 'less horrifying' than the others, with everyone just being forced to accept, by the mechanics of the story, that they only way people can ever live in peace is if someone - Reaper or 'hero' - ignores free will and inflicts a solution upon them.
 
Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.
 

BW started out this series asking the player what they were willing to do and sacrife to stop an unstoppable force. That has not changed.
You have to understand that you may have to get you hands dirty to do what must be done. BW made thisa point when they explained what the spectru's are and do.

You issue is that you could not stay on the high moral ground to save the galexy, but you missing here is that ME was  never about stay on the high moral ground to save the galexy.

It ends up more about cause and effect(mass notwithstanding) than 'moral' grounds. Such as they are, when only entertaining a thought, without consquences, it's easy up on high. Reduce the varibles to basic logic, synthesis wins. 

BiowarEa could be considered quite evil...lol

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

Ok, then...Just as long as you know nothing supports your case that they have free will still.

No need for snipes there, buddy. I believe my case is supported, you believe yours is supported. Let it go.

I'm not saying you case is wrong....But what is it supported by?

It doesn't matter, man. My beliefs are mine, yours are yours. I have my logic which you find lacking and you have yours which I find lacking. We're getting nowhere fast.

That was my point. I'm not saying you wrong just understand their is no point supporting what you believe.

And there is really no point supporting yours.

[dreman9999]

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

 
Much as people are already expressing on this thread, I find it truly sad that Bioware's legacy to a series that once celebrated inclusivity and wonder is a series of semantic squabbles about which atrocity is 'less horrifying' than the others, with everyone just being forced to accept, by the mechanics of the story, that they only way people can ever live in peace is if someone - Reaper or 'hero' - ignores free will and inflicts a solution upon them.
 
Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.
 

BW started out this series asking the player what they were willing to do and sacrife to stop an unstoppable force. That has not changed.
You have to understand that you may have to get you hands dirty to do what must be done. BW made thisa point when they explained what the spectru's are and do.

You issue is that you could not stay on the high moral ground to save the galexy, but you missing here is that ME was  never about stay on the high moral ground to save the galexy.

It ends up more about cause and effect(mass notwithstanding) than 'moral' grounds. Such as they are, when only entertaining a thought, without consquences, it's easy up on high. Reduce the varibles to basic logic, synthesis wins. 

BiowarEa could be considered quite evil...lol

True. I played a  lawfully nuetral Shepard.....She is my second most renagade Shepard up to Tuchunka/meeting Eve. She did everthing except 2 things based on pure logic till then.

[Wayning_Star]

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I don't wish to make any enemies here. I wonder if BioWare ever anticipated just how badly they would divide the fanbase with these endings. People accusing each other of being monsters...

It really is sad isn't it?  But BioWare aid they wanted to cause discussion, and well they got it.

actually, they just wanted to make some VG fame'n fortune, its the fans who want to talk, ie. some sense of communication. It's fun, in a way, watching folks hash it out. But, it's strange that so many balk at synthesis, not knowing what it might be, or how it's enevitable. It's like many don't understand what being a 'user' is..

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

Ok, then...Just as long as you know nothing supports your case that they have free will still.

No need for snipes there, buddy. I believe my case is supported, you believe yours is supported. Let it go.

I'm not saying you case is wrong....But what is it supported by?

It doesn't matter, man. My beliefs are mine, yours are yours. I have my logic which you find lacking and you have yours which I find lacking. We're getting nowhere fast.

That was my point. I'm not saying you wrong just understand their is no point supporting what you believe.

And there is really no point supporting yours.

What?
So indoctination does not exsist, nor the harvesting of races ageinst their will to make a reaper?

[spotlessvoid]

Funny how the Reapers are shown burning, falling from the sky in all the promotional art.

Bioware totally doesn't mean anything by it.

Saren, The Illusive Man, and Anderson walk into a bar. The bartender says "What is this, foreshadowing?"

Come on people, wake up

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

Ok, then...Just as long as you know nothing supports your case that they have free will still.

No need for snipes there, buddy. I believe my case is supported, you believe yours is supported. Let it go.

I'm not saying you case is wrong....But what is it supported by?

It doesn't matter, man. My beliefs are mine, yours are yours. I have my logic which you find lacking and you have yours which I find lacking. We're getting nowhere fast.

That was my point. I'm not saying you wrong just understand their is no point supporting what you believe.

And there is really no point supporting yours.

What?
So indoctination does not exsist, nor the harvesting of races ageinst their will to make a reaper?

What? So people didn't die and we just hand-wave responsibility because they weren't themselves?

See? We fundamentally disagree. Just let it go.

[BatmanTurian]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Funny how the Reapers are shown burning, falling from the sky in all the promotional art.

Bioware totally doesn't mean anything by it.

Saren, The Illusive Man, and Anderson walk into a bar. The bartender says "What is this, foreshadowing?"

Come on people, wake up

lol. That's a gem.

[dreman9999]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I don't wish to make any enemies here. I wonder if BioWare ever anticipated just how badly they would divide the fanbase with these endings. People accusing each other of being monsters...

It really is sad isn't it?  But BioWare aid they wanted to cause discussion, and well they got it.

actually, they just wanted to make some VG fame'n fortune, its the fans who want to talk, ie. some sense of communication. It's fun, in a way, watching folks hash it out. But, it's strange that so many balk at synthesis, not knowing what it might be, or how it's enevitable. It's like many don't understand what being a 'user' is..

As a consept, I agree with you point...But as the choice the catalyst offers, I'm not surpirzed. Of course no one would want the catalyst version of synthesis.

Modifié par dreman9999, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:04 .

[Jadebaby]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.

"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."

So much win.

[Wayning_Star]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Funny how the Reapers are shown burning, falling from the sky in all the promotional art.

Bioware totally doesn't mean anything by it.

Saren, The Illusive Man, and Anderson walk into a bar. The bartender says "What is this, foreshadowing?"

Come on people, wake up

Don't believe all advertizments? They're meant to read the book by it's cover story?

[Wayning_Star]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.

"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."

So much win.

Then, who runs the reaper ships? Who are 'nations independent'?  What is 'collective intelligence'? and why would the catalyst 'save' that stuff? Why would the Leviathan say the catalyst is doing it's designed purpose, albeit, 'saving lives'?

That logic doesn't figure with the known MEU facts, lore/codex/ or in story information...

try again?

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Okay so some people think the Reapers are innocent and some people think they are guilty or at least culpable. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind about this.

Ok, then...Just as long as you know nothing supports your case that they have free will still.

No need for snipes there, buddy. I believe my case is supported, you believe yours is supported. Let it go.

I'm not saying you case is wrong....But what is it supported by?

It doesn't matter, man. My beliefs are mine, yours are yours. I have my logic which you find lacking and you have yours which I find lacking. We're getting nowhere fast.

That was my point. I'm not saying you wrong just understand their is no point supporting what you believe.

And there is really no point supporting yours.

What?
So indoctination does not exsist, nor the harvesting of races ageinst their will to make a reaper?

What? So people didn't die and we just hand-wave responsibility because they weren't themselves?

See? We fundamentally disagree. Just let it go.

Point--------->Totaly lost.

We are not saying not to kill the reapers when we say they are not at fault. This just a case of empathy and understand.. We, or more of the case I, are just saying they are not evil. 

That does not mean not to kill them. Personally I see it as putting down a mad dog. The mad dog is not evil nor is happy to attack people. It  has no control over itself and I can't stop it from being a mad dog. I'm putting it out of it's misery.
We can at lease learn why I happen so it's not repeated agein.

[dreman9999]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.

"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."

So much win.

This topic was never ageinst this.

[Jadebaby]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.

"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."

So much win.

Then, who runs the reaper ships? Who are 'nations independent'?  What is 'collective intelligence'? and why would the catalyst 'save' that stuff? Why would the Leviathan say the catalyst is doing it's designed purpose, albeit, 'saving lives'?

That logic doesn't figure with the known MEU facts, lore/codex/ or in story information...

try again?

It's an in-game quote.... You can't argue with it.

The organic minds are preserved in the Reapers. That doesn't mean the organic minds control the Reaper entity they are uploaded to. The same way the Virtual Aliens still had an AI watching over their virtual world.

[Bill Casey]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Saren, The Illusive Man, and Anderson walk into a bar. The bartender says "What is this, foreshadowing?"

Saren and TIM paid for their own shots...