985 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.

"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."

So much win.

Then, who runs the reaper ships? Who are 'nations independent'?  What is 'collective intelligence'? and why would the catalyst 'save' that stuff? Why would the Leviathan say the catalyst is doing it's designed purpose, albeit, 'saving lives'?

That logic doesn't figure with the known MEU facts, lore/codex/ or in story information...

try again?

It's an in-game quote.... You can't argue with it.

The organic minds are preserved in the Reapers. That doesn't mean the organic minds control the Reaper entity they are uploaded to. The same way the Virtual Aliens still had an AI watching over their virtual world.

But the virtual Alien choose to have  that Ai guardian.(I'm not ageinst you point. I'm just correcting your example.)

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.

"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."

So much win.

This topic was never ageinst this.

Actually it was, the OP doesn't want to kill them because "they're innocent"

[Jadebaby]

dreman9999 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.

"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."

So much win.

This topic was never ageinst this.

Yes it is, it's arguing that we should "set them free" from the Catalyst's whim via Synthesis. But the only way the organic's minds in the Reapers will ever be free is if they are laid to rest, via destroy.

Not destroying them because "they deserve it". But destroying them as an act of mercy.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...
Point--------->Totaly lost.

We are not saying not to kill the reapers when we say they are not at fault. This just a case of empathy and understand.. We, or more of the case I, are just saying they are not evil. 

That does not mean not to kill them. Personally I see it as putting down a mad dog. The mad dog is not evil nor is happy to attack people. It  has no control over itself and I can't stop it from being a mad dog. I'm putting it out of it's misery.
We can at lease learn why I happen so it's not repeated agein.

I just disagree that you can call something innocent that joyfully kills others regardless of whether it's doing it of its own free will or not. What it's doing is harmful. I don't want to enslave it, I don't want to understand it or give it self-realization of the crimes it has committed, I just want to put it out of its misery. Something that is essentially undead, it seems the moral thing to do and to protect yourself and others is to make sure it stops moving by ending its unlife.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:10 .

[spotlessvoid]

Bill Casey wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Saren, The Illusive Man, and Anderson walk into a bar. The bartender says "What is this, foreshadowing?"

Saren and TIM paid for their own shots...

Well played. Works on multiple levels

[jtav]

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

[Wayning_Star]

dreman9999 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I don't wish to make any enemies here. I wonder if BioWare ever anticipated just how badly they would divide the fanbase with these endings. People accusing each other of being monsters...

It really is sad isn't it?  But BioWare aid they wanted to cause discussion, and well they got it.

actually, they just wanted to make some VG fame'n fortune, its the fans who want to talk, ie. some sense of communication. It's fun, in a way, watching folks hash it out. But, it's strange that so many balk at synthesis, not knowing what it might be, or how it's enevitable. It's like many don't understand what being a 'user' is..

As a consept, I agree with you point...But as the choice the catalyst offers, I'm not surpirzed. Of course no one would want the catalyst verion of synthesis.

From the idea of it, I  don't believe that the catalyst had anything to do with that choice,eventhough it would probably consider it. We'll never know who actually designed the choices in the story. I don't figure them as choices tho, I look at them as demands from many different 'players' in the background within the story, but who knows who they are, or if they'll ever be exposed, as the story revolves around the choices, after the 'game' is over.  There is no way to actually entertain a 'what if' with any of them. Maybe bioware writers just bit off more than was actually chewable with this resolution.

Even so, I feel that an 'end game' is needed. But... not the one everyone got. As there is way too much wiggle room. Leaving for chaos, the very thing that the choice would/should render moot. We/the MEU ends up with 'factionalizaton', none of which can settle on the canon end to the trilogy.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.

"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."

So much win.

This topic was never ageinst this.

Actually it was, the OP doesn't want to kill them because "they're innocent"

Jade8aby88 wrote...
Yes it is, it's arguing that we should "set them free" from the Catalyst's whim via Synthesis. But the only way the organic's minds in the Reapers will ever be free is if they are laid to rest, via destroy. 

Not destroying them because "they deserve it". But destroying them as an act of mercy.

No, it's not the op made it clear on this in the topic itself. The topic is not for or ageinst any of the choice. He is just saying the obvious.

We are not saying not to kill the reapers when we say they are not at fault. This just a case of empathy and understand.. We, or more of the case I, are just saying they are not evil. 

That does not mean not to kill them. Personally I see it as putting down a mad dog. The mad dog is not evil nor is happy to attack people. It  has no control over itself and I can't stop it from being a mad dog. I'm putting it out of it's misery.
We can at lease learn why I happen so it's not repeated agein.

[Jadebaby]

dreman9999 wrote...

But the virtual Alien choose to have  that Ai guardian.(I'm not ageinst you point. I'm just correcting your example.)

It's irrelevant. Them choosing to have the AI guardian was of necessity, not personal choice.

You could say the Leviathans also chose to have the Catalyst as an AI guardian. Both points are irrelevant.

[Wayning_Star]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Saren, The Illusive Man, and Anderson walk into a bar. The bartender says "What is this, foreshadowing?"

Saren and TIM paid for their own shots...

Well played. Works on multiple levels

unless you don't drink..the fire water...

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Point--------->Totaly lost.

We are not saying not to kill the reapers when we say they are not at fault. This just a case of empathy and understand.. We, or more of the case I, are just saying they are not evil. 

That does not mean not to kill them. Personally I see it as putting down a mad dog. The mad dog is not evil nor is happy to attack people. It  has no control over itself and I can't stop it from being a mad dog. I'm putting it out of it's misery.
We can at lease learn why I happen so it's not repeated agein.

I just disagree that you can call something innocent that joyfully kills others regardless of whether it's doing it of its own free will or not. What it's doing is harmful. I don't want to enslave it, I don't want to understand it or give it self-realization of the crimes it has committed, I just want to put it out of its misery. Something that is essentially undead, it seems the moral thing to do and to protect yourself and others is to make sure it stops moving by ending its unlife.

The reaper had no joy in killing anything. They were just doing what they are programed to do. The reapers are just the remanace of races converted into a reaper by force who are forced to harvest others. They have no free will. They are just doing what they were made to  and programemed to do.

Look at Saren. He in ME1 is the same way. He had an ego and persona but no free will.

[Jadebaby]

dreman9999 wrote...

No, it's not the op made it clear on this in the topic itself. The topic is not for or ageinst any of the choice. He is just saying the obvious.

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

Orly?

[BatmanTurian]

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

Are you okay? You sound indoctrinated.

[dreman9999]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But the virtual Alien choose to have  that Ai guardian.(I'm not ageinst you point. I'm just correcting your example.)

It's irrelevant. Them choosing to have the AI guardian was of necessity, not personal choice.

You could say the Leviathans also chose to have the Catalyst as an AI guardian. Both points are irrelevant.

Some one did not read the second part of my statement.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Point--------->Totaly lost.

We are not saying not to kill the reapers when we say they are not at fault. This just a case of empathy and understand.. We, or more of the case I, are just saying they are not evil. 

That does not mean not to kill them. Personally I see it as putting down a mad dog. The mad dog is not evil nor is happy to attack people. It  has no control over itself and I can't stop it from being a mad dog. I'm putting it out of it's misery.
We can at lease learn why I happen so it's not repeated agein.

I just disagree that you can call something innocent that joyfully kills others regardless of whether it's doing it of its own free will or not. What it's doing is harmful. I don't want to enslave it, I don't want to understand it or give it self-realization of the crimes it has committed, I just want to put it out of its misery. Something that is essentially undead, it seems the moral thing to do and to protect yourself and others is to make sure it stops moving by ending its unlife.

The reaper had no joy in killing anything. They were just doing what they are programed to do. The reapers are just the remanace of races converted into a reaper by force who are forced to harvest others. They have no free will. They are just doing what they were made to  and programemed to do.

Look at Saren. He in ME1 is the same way. He had an ego and persona but no free will.

Yeah, Sovereign and Harbinger were CLEARLY not enjoying themselves.

Did we even play the same games?

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:18 .

[Wayning_Star]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But the virtual Alien choose to have  that Ai guardian.(I'm not ageinst you point. I'm just correcting your example.)

It's irrelevant. Them choosing to have the AI guardian was of necessity, not personal choice.

You could say the Leviathans also chose to have the Catalyst as an AI guardian. Both points are irrelevant.

didn't the catalyst take this on it's own initiative? The leviathan simply utilized it to be a means to an end, not a guardian at all. The catalyst is the one who got the "big head' and decided, for some reason, to be guardian. What was that reason again? Kind of important...

[dreman9999]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No, it's not the op made it clear on this in the topic itself. The topic is not for or ageinst any of the choice. He is just saying the obvious.

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

Orly?

That's not ageinst destroy.

[AresKeith]

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan

"Well Hello Mr. Reapers"

"You should have left our worlds alone"

[dreman9999]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But the virtual Alien choose to have  that Ai guardian.(I'm not ageinst you point. I'm just correcting your example.)

It's irrelevant. Them choosing to have the AI guardian was of necessity, not personal choice.

You could say the Leviathans also chose to have the Catalyst as an AI guardian. Both points are irrelevant.

didn't the catalyst take this on it's own initiative? The leviathan simply utilized it to be a means to an end, not a guardian at all. The catalyst is the one who got the "big head' and decided, for some reason, to be guardian. What was that reason again? Kind of important...

No, the leviathen told him to preserve life no matter the cost. They told him what do and left how to do it up to him.
That still means the leviathens are at fault.

[clennon8]

Here's what I'm hearing: "I'd rather give into indoctrination than kill the Reapers."

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Point--------->Totaly lost.

We are not saying not to kill the reapers when we say they are not at fault. This just a case of empathy and understand.. We, or more of the case I, are just saying they are not evil. 

That does not mean not to kill them. Personally I see it as putting down a mad dog. The mad dog is not evil nor is happy to attack people. It  has no control over itself and I can't stop it from being a mad dog. I'm putting it out of it's misery.
We can at lease learn why I happen so it's not repeated agein.

I just disagree that you can call something innocent that joyfully kills others regardless of whether it's doing it of its own free will or not. What it's doing is harmful. I don't want to enslave it, I don't want to understand it or give it self-realization of the crimes it has committed, I just want to put it out of its misery. Something that is essentially undead, it seems the moral thing to do and to protect yourself and others is to make sure it stops moving by ending its unlife.

The reaper had no joy in killing anything. They were just doing what they are programed to do. The reapers are just the remanace of races converted into a reaper by force who are forced to harvest others. They have no free will. They are just doing what they were made to  and programemed to do.

Look at Saren. He in ME1 is the same way. He had an ego and persona but no free will.

Yeah, Sovereign and Harbinger were CLEARLY not enjoying themselves.

Did we even play the same games?

What in ME1 and 2 showed they were enjoying them selves?

Sovergin told use, in  a monatone voice, there is no point to fight back.
And Harbinger kept telling us they were helping us assend.

[jtav]

Except it's not indoc, clen. It's a badly written exposition dump.

[dreman9999]

clennon8 wrote...

Here's what I'm hearing: "I'd rather give into indoctrination than kill the Reapers."

How did you get that?

[Wayning_Star]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Point--------->Totaly lost.

We are not saying not to kill the reapers when we say they are not at fault. This just a case of empathy and understand.. We, or more of the case I, are just saying they are not evil. 

That does not mean not to kill them. Personally I see it as putting down a mad dog. The mad dog is not evil nor is happy to attack people. It  has no control over itself and I can't stop it from being a mad dog. I'm putting it out of it's misery.
We can at lease learn why I happen so it's not repeated agein.

I just disagree that you can call something innocent that joyfully kills others regardless of whether it's doing it of its own free will or not. What it's doing is harmful. I don't want to enslave it, I don't want to understand it or give it self-realization of the crimes it has committed, I just want to put it out of its misery. Something that is essentially undead, it seems the moral thing to do and to protect yourself and others is to make sure it stops moving by ending its unlife.

The reaper had no joy in killing anything. They were just doing what they are programed to do. The reapers are just the remanace of races converted into a reaper by force who are forced to harvest others. They have no free will. They are just doing what they were made to  and programemed to do.

Look at Saren. He in ME1 is the same way. He had an ego and persona but no free will.

Yeah, Sovereign and Harbinger were CLEARLY not enjoying themselves.

Did we even play the same games?

It's probably why the writers cop'd onto the 'beyond you're understanding' ethos. Easier to describe any villian as overbearing. But then, we know who's race harby was torn from, we don't know who sovy's innards contained? Maybe it was Javiks group, they were kind of 'usurper' mentality. I wonder which reaper contains the Prothean race? Should be interesting to meet that one.. at a distance.. maybe via radio or some such?

[dreman9999]

jtav wrote...

Except it's not indoc, clen. It's a badly written exposition dump.

A machine forced to do what it's programed to do is not the same as indoctrination?