985 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Point--------->Totaly lost.

We are not saying not to kill the reapers when we say they are not at fault. This just a case of empathy and understand.. We, or more of the case I, are just saying they are not evil. 

That does not mean not to kill them. Personally I see it as putting down a mad dog. The mad dog is not evil nor is happy to attack people. It  has no control over itself and I can't stop it from being a mad dog. I'm putting it out of it's misery.
We can at lease learn why I happen so it's not repeated agein.

I just disagree that you can call something innocent that joyfully kills others regardless of whether it's doing it of its own free will or not. What it's doing is harmful. I don't want to enslave it, I don't want to understand it or give it self-realization of the crimes it has committed, I just want to put it out of its misery. Something that is essentially undead, it seems the moral thing to do and to protect yourself and others is to make sure it stops moving by ending its unlife.

The reaper had no joy in killing anything. They were just doing what they are programed to do. The reapers are just the remanace of races converted into a reaper by force who are forced to harvest others. They have no free will. They are just doing what they were made to  and programemed to do.

Look at Saren. He in ME1 is the same way. He had an ego and persona but no free will.

Yeah, Sovereign and Harbinger were CLEARLY not enjoying themselves.

Did we even play the same games?

"We are superior, They are vermin"

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Paranoidal nemesis wrote...

During a cut conversation at the end of ME2, edi says that creating a reaper involves processing the species to the atomic level, and then storing that information in a machine.

Shepard tells the reaper at the end of Rannoch via paragon interrupt, that whatever species it was is dead. They died thousands of years ago.

The most you can say about a reaper being innocent is that they lack the capacity to be either guilty or innocent.

They seem to lack empathy, sympathy, or a sense of morality as well.

They are machones blindly doing what they are told to do.

[Jadebaby]

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No, it's not the op made it clear on this in the topic itself. The topic is not for or ageinst any of the choice. He is just saying the obvious.

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

Orly?

That's not ageinst destroy.

That underlined point right there says that the OP is against destroy because the Reapers are innocent. Since destroy is the only option that kills the Reapers and the OP says he/she won't kill them, that proves they are against destroy

That does not mean he is ageints destory. That means he would do it as a last means.

yes which means they are against the choice of destroy. If it is the only option left (last resort) then it isn't a choice, it's a must.

Exactly, a "last means" is completely irrelevant now. The OP has clearly finished the game and knows what s/he must do to reach Synthesis (EMS wise). Therefore a "last means" isn't even applicable.

Wayning_Star wrote...

I think the OP promoted synthesis.

Concede Dreaman.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Point--------->Totaly lost.

We are not saying not to kill the reapers when we say they are not at fault. This just a case of empathy and understand.. We, or more of the case I, are just saying they are not evil. 

That does not mean not to kill them. Personally I see it as putting down a mad dog. The mad dog is not evil nor is happy to attack people. It  has no control over itself and I can't stop it from being a mad dog. I'm putting it out of it's misery.
We can at lease learn why I happen so it's not repeated agein.

I just disagree that you can call something innocent that joyfully kills others regardless of whether it's doing it of its own free will or not. What it's doing is harmful. I don't want to enslave it, I don't want to understand it or give it self-realization of the crimes it has committed, I just want to put it out of its misery. Something that is essentially undead, it seems the moral thing to do and to protect yourself and others is to make sure it stops moving by ending its unlife.

The reaper had no joy in killing anything. They were just doing what they are programed to do. The reapers are just the remanace of races converted into a reaper by force who are forced to harvest others. They have no free will. They are just doing what they were made to  and programemed to do.

Look at Saren. He in ME1 is the same way. He had an ego and persona but no free will.

Yeah, Sovereign and Harbinger were CLEARLY not enjoying themselves.

Did we even play the same games?

"We are superior, They are vermin"

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

[drayfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.

Wait, what? Surely you realize there are works of fiction which exhort people to commit atrocities IRL?

Name one.

[element eater]

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

so whats your alternative enslaving them through control?

forcing change both mental and physical on every being in the galaxy simply to accomadate them in there hellish existance?

also just gunna say its all nonsense anyway those people were turned into a uniform goo the brain was not preserved weve seen it.  Reapers may have a form of mind derived from the data of the species but what ever was there of an indiviual is gone. The reapers may have been victims once but not anymore

[KENNY4753]

So if the Reapers are innocent then are the Darkspawn also innocent? Do they not deserve to die?

Modifié par KENNY4753, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:35 .

[dreman9999]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No, it's not the op made it clear on this in the topic itself. The topic is not for or ageinst any of the choice. He is just saying the obvious.

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

Orly?

That's not ageinst destroy.

That underlined point right there says that the OP is against destroy because the Reapers are innocent. Since destroy is the only option that kills the Reapers and the OP says he/she won't kill them, that proves they are against destroy

That does not mean he is ageints destory. That means he would do it as a last means.

yes which means they are against the choice of destroy. If it is the only option left (last resort) then it isn't a choice, it's a must.

Exactly, a "last means" is completely irrelevant now. The OP has clearly finished the game and knows what s/he must do to reach Synthesis (EMS wise). Therefore a "last means" isn't even applicable.

Wayning_Star wrote...

I think the OP promoted synthesis.

Concede Dreaman.

Last means does nto means not  mean not applicable.
And Wayning star does not speak for the op.

[fiendishchicken]

*Sees thread on news page and checks out what he believes is troll thread. Sees that the OP is jtav and face-palms.*

Seriously? 

Oh well, I like it when you post stuff OP. I like having a good laugh. 

It's like watching Plan 9. 

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:38 .

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Paranoidal nemesis wrote...

During a cut conversation at the end of ME2, edi says that creating a reaper involves processing the species to the atomic level, and then storing that information in a machine.

Shepard tells the reaper at the end of Rannoch via paragon interrupt, that whatever species it was is dead. They died thousands of years ago.

The most you can say about a reaper being innocent is that they lack the capacity to be either guilty or innocent.

They seem to lack empathy, sympathy, or a sense of morality as well.

They are machones blindly doing what they are told to do.

They are more than machine. Since they are synthesis, they are cyborgs, except the flesh they possess is the soup of an extinct species. They have emotions, personal goals, and some autonomy. They are not just flying computers.

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

Harby certainly get's an ego trip out of it, "Your leaders will beg to serve us."

[Kabooooom]

In ME1 the Reapers were portrayed as Godlike - beyond the realm of organic existence. Much like a true god, if one existed, it likely wouldn't be motivated by petty human emotions like vengeance, anger, hatred, etc. Such things are beyond a being like that. That is what Sovereign was like in ME1.

Then, in ME2, Harbinger definitely displayed a bit more emotion in his taunts. He even visibly became what one would infer was pissed off at Shep. This was, in my mind, a mistake.

Then in ME3 you hardly even interact with Reapers except for the one on Rannoch, which was more like Sovereign in behavior again.

It seems Bioware couldn't make up their mind about how they wanted the Reapers to be portrayed.

[dreman9999]

KENNY4753 wrote...

So if the Reapers are innocent then are the Darkspawn also innocent? Do they not deserve to die?

No one is saying they don't.

[Wayning_Star]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Point--------->Totaly lost.

We are not saying not to kill the reapers when we say they are not at fault. This just a case of empathy and understand.. We, or more of the case I, are just saying they are not evil. 

That does not mean not to kill them. Personally I see it as putting down a mad dog. The mad dog is not evil nor is happy to attack people. It  has no control over itself and I can't stop it from being a mad dog. I'm putting it out of it's misery.
We can at lease learn why I happen so it's not repeated agein.

I just disagree that you can call something innocent that joyfully kills others regardless of whether it's doing it of its own free will or not. What it's doing is harmful. I don't want to enslave it, I don't want to understand it or give it self-realization of the crimes it has committed, I just want to put it out of its misery. Something that is essentially undead, it seems the moral thing to do and to protect yourself and others is to make sure it stops moving by ending its unlife.

The reaper had no joy in killing anything. They were just doing what they are programed to do. The reapers are just the remanace of races converted into a reaper by force who are forced to harvest others. They have no free will. They are just doing what they were made to  and programemed to do.

Look at Saren. He in ME1 is the same way. He had an ego and persona but no free will.

Yeah, Sovereign and Harbinger were CLEARLY not enjoying themselves.

Did we even play the same games?

It's probably why the writers cop'd onto the 'beyond you're understanding' ethos. Easier to describe any villian as overbearing. But then, we know who's race harby was torn from, we don't know who sovy's innards contained? Maybe it was Javiks group, they were kind of 'usurper' mentality. I wonder which reaper contains the Prothean race? Should be interesting to meet that one.. at a distance.. maybe via radio or some such?

I think, if I remember correctly, Javik's specific race was not deemed worthy to make into a reaper. That said, every race called itself prothean since it was a galactic empire, so it could be some other "prothean" race.

Oh yeah, Javik was the last prothean.. my bad. It's just that Javik was a warrior sect of the protheans, not a scientist/tech sect of that race/society of many different races. I wonder who actually ruled the roost within the Prothean culture, the brains or the brawn. I suspect the brawn, if Javik were any indicator. He did claim they ruled with an iron fist type logo. In my mind, Javik was part of the prothean subculture, not the main proponent, even if the controlling faction. It's hard to say tho, what with such limited information on them. It's no wonder we cannot fathom the reaper mind.

[Wayning_Star]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

Harby certainly get's an ego trip out of it, "Your leaders will beg to serve us."

Sound Leviathan to me tho...

[BatmanTurian]

KENNY4753 wrote...

So if the Reapers are innocent then are the Darkspawn also innocent? Do they not deserve to die?

I think orcs are innocent. Clearly they just wanted to hug the fellowship to death and that archer was just pinning one down so they would stop running from hugs and kisses.

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

Harby certainly get's an ego trip out of it, "Your leaders will beg to serve us."

But that does not mean Joy. Just arragance.He just beleved he is and the reapers are better. Even the catalsyt showed this. This does not mean it took joy in what it did.

Even Saren showed this arragance in ME1 and he was a indoctrinated slave.

[AresKeith]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

Harby certainly get's an ego trip out of it, "Your leaders will beg to serve us."

"Your worlds will become our laboratories"

[KENNY4753]

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No, it's not the op made it clear on this in the topic itself. The topic is not for or ageinst any of the choice. He is just saying the obvious.

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

Orly?

That's not ageinst destroy.

That underlined point right there says that the OP is against destroy because the Reapers are innocent. Since destroy is the only option that kills the Reapers and the OP says he/she won't kill them, that proves they are against destroy

That does not mean he is ageints destory. That means he would do it as a last means.

yes which means they are against the choice of destroy. If it is the only option left (last resort) then it isn't a choice, it's a must.

That not want that means. If he was ageinst it, He would say he would not pick it no matter what.

Wow you really do not read what people say do you?

If it is the only option he would pick it, because it is the only option. He/She would have no choice. But it isn't the only choice so therefore he/she would never pick it, thus being against the choice of destroy.

[Jadebaby]

Paranoidal nemesis wrote...

During a cut conversation at the end of ME2, edi says that creating a reaper involves processing the species to the atomic level, and then storing that information in a machine.

Shepard tells the reaper at the end of Rannoch via paragon interrupt, that whatever species it was is dead. They died thousands of years ago.

The most you can say about a reaper being innocent is that they lack the capacity to be either guilty or innocent.

Exactly, and that's a very good point that can be argued for a new point of view on it all.

It's evident the Catalyst has no concept of right or wrong, or good or evil. Therefore, it can also be argued that he has no concept of what 'makes' an organic. Therefore when he thinks he is storing their "minds" in Reaper form, maybe it's just the organics "material" - DNA, Cells, etc... And their "soul" actually perishes when they are gooped.

The same as what happened to the Collectors. If you freed the Collectors from Harbinger's control. Then they wouldn't go back to being Protheans. Or have any memory of Prothean life. They are gone and repurposed. (As told by EDI in ME2). Maybe the same could apply to the Reapers themselves.

[KENNY4753]

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

So if the Reapers are innocent then are the Darkspawn also innocent? Do they not deserve to die?

No one is saying they don't.

They are just the same as the Reapers. Their cycle is the Blight, and they are being controlled by their Catalyst, the Archdemon. 

That is my point.

[Kabooooom]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Leviathan to me tho...

Yes this was intentional I think. Harby is clearly Leviathan-like in his personality. He is also the only Reaper shown to "assume control" over the Collectors, which is a Leviathan ability. The other Reapers seem to just use the more refined method of Indoctrination.

[Jadebaby]

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.

Wait, what? Surely you realize there are works of fiction which exhort people to commit atrocities IRL?

Name one.

Grand Theft Auto.

[BatmanTurian]

Wayning_Star wrote...
Oh yeah, Javik was the last prothean.. my bad. It's just that Javik was a warrior sect of the protheans, not a scientist/tech sect of that race/society of many different races. I wonder who actually ruled the roost within the Prothean culture, the brains or the brawn. I suspect the brawn, if Javik were any indicator. He did claim they ruled with an iron fist type logo. In my mind, Javik was part of the prothean subculture, not the main proponent, even if the controlling faction. It's hard to say tho, what with such limited information on them. It's no wonder we cannot fathom the reaper mind.

I had the impression from talking to him that his species were the original Prothean species since he exalted his own species and seemed to consider other species inferior. They were social darwinists.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:42 .

[dreman9999]

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No, it's not the op made it clear on this in the topic itself. The topic is not for or ageinst any of the choice. He is just saying the obvious.

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

Orly?

That's not ageinst destroy.

That underlined point right there says that the OP is against destroy because the Reapers are innocent. Since destroy is the only option that kills the Reapers and the OP says he/she won't kill them, that proves they are against destroy

That does not mean he is ageints destory. That means he would do it as a last means.

yes which means they are against the choice of destroy. If it is the only option left (last resort) then it isn't a choice, it's a must.

That not want that means. If he was ageinst it, He would say he would not pick it no matter what.

Wow you really do not read what people say do you?

If it is the only option he would pick it, because it is the only option. He/She would have no choice. But it isn't the only choice so therefore he/she would never pick it, thus being against the choice of destroy.

Again, that does not mean he would not pick it.