985 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

So if the Reapers are innocent then are the Darkspawn also innocent? Do they not deserve to die?

No one is saying they don't.

They are just the same as the Reapers. Their cycle is the Blight, and they are being controlled by their Catalyst, the Archdemon. 

That is my point.

And as I said before no one is saying not to kill the reapers.

[Jadebaby]

dreman9999 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No, it's not the op made it clear on this in the topic itself. The topic is not for or ageinst any of the choice. He is just saying the obvious.

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

Orly?

That's not ageinst destroy.

That underlined point right there says that the OP is against destroy because the Reapers are innocent. Since destroy is the only option that kills the Reapers and the OP says he/she won't kill them, that proves they are against destroy

That does not mean he is ageints destory. That means he would do it as a last means.

yes which means they are against the choice of destroy. If it is the only option left (last resort) then it isn't a choice, it's a must.

Exactly, a "last means" is completely irrelevant now. The OP has clearly finished the game and knows what s/he must do to reach Synthesis (EMS wise). Therefore a "last means" isn't even applicable.

Wayning_Star wrote...

I think the OP promoted synthesis.

Concede Dreaman.

Last means does nto means not  mean not applicable.
And Wayning star does not speak for the op.

Neither do you.

[AresKeith]

Kabooooom wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Leviathan to me tho...

Yes this was intentional I think. Harby is clearly Leviathan-like in his personality. He is also the only Reaper shown to "assume control" over the Collectors, which is a Leviathan ability. The other Reapers seem to just use the more refined method of Indoctrination.

Wouldn't the Catalyst know how to do it too, sense he's also based on them

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

Harby certainly get's an ego trip out of it, "Your leaders will beg to serve us."

"Your worlds will become our laboratories"

Ya, I'm still not getting "joy " out of that.

[Kabooooom]

I had the impression from talking to him that his species was the original Prothean species since he exalted his own species and seemed to consider other species inferior. They were social darwinists.

Your impression was correct. Not only does Javik straight up SAY his race were the original Protheans, but he goes into detail about how they deliberately uplifted other races to fight the synthetics of his time.

[TookYoCookies]

fil009 wrote...

When fire burns is it at war?

Pretty sure my brain just sh*t itself.

[Wayning_Star]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Paranoidal nemesis wrote...

During a cut conversation at the end of ME2, edi says that creating a reaper involves processing the species to the atomic level, and then storing that information in a machine.

Shepard tells the reaper at the end of Rannoch via paragon interrupt, that whatever species it was is dead. They died thousands of years ago.

The most you can say about a reaper being innocent is that they lack the capacity to be either guilty or innocent.

They seem to lack empathy, sympathy, or a sense of morality as well.

They are machones blindly doing what they are told to do.

They are more than machine. Since they are synthesis, they are cyborgs, except the flesh they possess is the soup of an extinct species. They have emotions, personal goals, and some autonomy. They are not just flying computers.

The catalyst runs them around, doing it's bidding. They just share the ego of their captive intellect/harvested. But they're helpless to do other than what the catalyst demands of them. They are machines with a cargo that semi runs the ship, but doesn't have a say in what goes down, short of catalyst program priorites. Thats where the OP got caught up. I've always considered this from the start of the ME trilogy. Why would reapers reap? Not until ME3 did I get the answer,eventhough alluded to earlier, via the prothean relics and Sheps dreams/interaction. There were always something more about the reapers than just destruction and harvest. More than just predatory.

[dreman9999]

[quote]Jade8aby88 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Jade8aby88 wrote...

[quote]KENNY4753 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]KENNY4753 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Jade8aby88 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

No, it's not the op made it clear on this in the topic itself. The topic is not for or ageinst any of the choice. He is just saying the obvious.[/quote]

[quote]jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.[/quote]

Orly?[/quote]
That's not ageinst destroy.

[/quote]
That underlined point right there says that the OP is against destroy because the Reapers are innocent. Since destroy is the only option that kills the Reapers and the OP says he/she won't kill them, that proves they are against destroy[/quote]That does not mean he is ageints destory. That means he would do it as a last means.
[/quote]
yes which means they are against the choice of destroy. If it is the only option left (last resort) then it isn't a choice, it's a must.
[/quote]

Exactly, a "last means" is completely irrelevant now. The OP has clearly finished the game and knows what s/he must do to reach Synthesis (EMS wise). Therefore a "last means" isn't even applicable.

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...

I think the OP promoted synthesis.[/quote]

Concede Dreaman.[/quote]Last means does nto means not  mean not applicable.
And Wayning star does not speak for the op.

[/quote]

Neither do you.[/quote]I know. THE OP STATED THIS HIM SELF.

[KENNY4753]

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

So if the Reapers are innocent then are the Darkspawn also innocent? Do they not deserve to die?

No one is saying they don't.

They are just the same as the Reapers. Their cycle is the Blight, and they are being controlled by their Catalyst, the Archdemon. 

That is my point.

And as I said before no one is saying not to kill the reapers.

the OP said they wouldn't unless they didn't have a choice aka last resort because the Reapers are innocent.

My point was that if the Reapers are innocent in the OP's mind then the Darkspawn must be too.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

Harby certainly get's an ego trip out of it, "Your leaders will beg to serve us."

"Your worlds will become our laboratories"

Ya, I'm still not getting "joy " out of that.

Why do something if you don't enjoy it? Synthetics get a positive feedback loop when they do something they think is fun just like organics do.

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fine work, Bioware. I have literally never seen a fiction advocate something so horrifying, nor reduce the discussion of its fanbase so absolutely.

Wait, what? Surely you realize there are works of fiction which exhort people to commit atrocities IRL?

Name one.

Ender's game.

[Bill Casey]

Wayning_Star wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Here's what I'm hearing: "I'd rather give into indoctrination than kill the Reapers."

you cannot 'kill' reapers, only destroy them, for a time, but their cargo is destroyed as well. Say, the Protheans, or Javiks race.. all gone, down to their basic DNA and their collective intellect.

The Protheans are gone...
They lost intelligence over several cloned generations and their DNA shows distinct signs of extensive genetic rewrite...

In fact Javik says Shepard killing the collectors he encountered was an act of mercy, and Liara agrees...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:50 .

[Jadebaby]

dreman9999 wrote...

And as I said before no one is saying not to kill the reapers.

"Very poor choice of words."

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

No, s/he is not telling *other* people not to kill the Reapers.

But if that doesn't say "I'm not killing the Reapers".. Then please tell me what does, Dreaman.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

Harby certainly get's an ego trip out of it, "Your leaders will beg to serve us."

"Your worlds will become our laboratories"

Ya, I'm still not getting "joy " out of that.

Because you don't get it at all

[Kabooooom]

Ender's game.

Good pick. Bioware clearly liked Ender's Game too since they directly ripped it off and didn't even hide the fact that they did lol.

Still, I love that they did. Mad props.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Go and read their quotes, I'm not going to go do your research for you.
I have. That's  why I know your wrong.  I can even link you to their recorded comments.

They never complain about their job and seem to relish it. They gain power over others and the ability to experiment and play around with organics. I don't get how you think that's not enjoyment.

They can't complain about it and the never show they relish it.

[BatmanTurian]

Kabooooom wrote...

I had the impression from talking to him that his species was the original Prothean species since he exalted his own species and seemed to consider other species inferior. They were social darwinists.

Your impression was correct. Not only does Javik straight up SAY his race were the original Protheans, but he goes into detail about how they deliberately uplifted other races to fight the synthetics of his time.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Haven't played the SP for like 2 months.

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

Harby certainly get's an ego trip out of it, "Your leaders will beg to serve us."

But that does not mean Joy. Just arragance.He just beleved he is and the reapers are better. Even the catalsyt showed this. This does not mean it took joy in what it did.

Even Saren showed this arragance in ME1 and he was a indoctrinated slave.

Believing you are better than someone doesn't lead to joy?
Saren seemed quite happy with his uprgrades.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

Harby certainly get's an ego trip out of it, "Your leaders will beg to serve us."

"Your worlds will become our laboratories"

Ya, I'm still not getting "joy " out of that.

Because you don't get it at all

Point to me the show of Joy in that?

[KENNY4753]

dreman9999 wrote...
Again, that does not mean he would not pick it.

How does it mean he wouldn't pick it. He said he wouldn't kill them unless it was the last resort.

If something is a last resort there is no other option available, therefore they wouldn't be picking it freely, they would be forced to destroy them. 

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Go and read their quotes, I'm not going to go do your research for you.
I have. That's  why I know your wrong.  I can even link you to their recorded comments.

They never complain about their job and seem to relish it. They gain power over others and the ability to experiment and play around with organics. I don't get how you think that's not enjoyment.

They can't complain about it and the never show they relish it.

Sure they could complain about it. And Harbinger stalking Shepard and purposely terrorizing Horizon's citizens with his speech, come on.

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Some how that means they take joy in what they are doing?

Harby certainly get's an ego trip out of it, "Your leaders will beg to serve us."

But that does not mean Joy. Just arragance.He just beleved he is and the reapers are better. Even the catalsyt showed this. This does not mean it took joy in what it did.

Even Saren showed this arragance in ME1 and he was a indoctrinated slave.

Believing you are better than someone doesn't lead to joy?
Saren seemed quite happy with his uprgrades.

1. That depends on the person. They also have to show this joy.
2. And he was indoctrianted.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

Point to me the show of Joy in that?

How about you read over Harbinger's quotes and his Arrival conversation

And listen to Sovereigns coversation again

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Go and read their quotes, I'm not going to go do your research for you.
I have. That's  why I know your wrong.  I can even link you to their recorded comments.

They never complain about their job and seem to relish it. They gain power over others and the ability to experiment and play around with organics. I don't get how you think that's not enjoyment.

They can't complain about it and the never show they relish it.

Sure they could complain about it. And Harbinger stalking Shepard and purposely terrorizing Horizon's citizens with his speech, come on.

How can something that in indoctrinated to do what they are told to the point of not even questioning orders complain?
Added, Harbinger never complains himself.

[AresKeith]

superiority complex, not so innocent