985 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanTurian]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And as I said before no one is saying not to kill the reapers.

"Very poor choice of words."

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

No, s/he is not telling *other* people not to kill the Reapers.

But if that doesn't say "I'm not killing the Reapers".. Then please tell me what does, Dreaman.

Not only that, but posting on this board that the Reapers are innocent is a subconcious ploy to try to bring others around to your thinking or to find support for your thought process. So, in a roundabout way, The OP says he/she doesn't want the rest of us to pick Destroy or else he/she would have kept it to themselves.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Point to me the show of Joy in that?

How about you read over Harbinger's quotes and his Arrival conversation

And listen to Sovereigns coversation again

I have. Still no expression of joy in those quotes.

[dreman9999]

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Again, that does not mean he would not pick it.

How does it mean he wouldn't pick it. He said he wouldn't kill them unless it was the last resort.

If something is a last resort there is no other option available, therefore they wouldn't be picking it freely, they would be forced to destroy them. 

He said he would do it as a last means. The option to kill the reapers is no off the table.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

superiority complex, not so innocent

A reflection of their creators and there controler.

Emotions do not equal having a will.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Go and read their quotes, I'm not going to go do your research for you.
I have. That's  why I know your wrong.  I can even link you to their recorded comments.

They never complain about their job and seem to relish it. They gain power over others and the ability to experiment and play around with organics. I don't get how you think that's not enjoyment.

They can't complain about it and the never show they relish it.

Sure they could complain about it. And Harbinger stalking Shepard and purposely terrorizing Horizon's citizens with his speech, come on.

How can something that in indoctrinated to do what they are told to the point of not even questioning orders complain?
Added, Harbinger never complains himself.

Because they are still sapient and still have a kind of conciousness. They know they are doing things, they just justify it with faulty logic handed down to them. Therefore, they could still complain because they still possess SOME free will, especially Sovereign-class.

[dreman9999]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And as I said before no one is saying not to kill the reapers.

"Very poor choice of words."

jtav wrote...

Right. The minds within the Reapers are subverted by the Catalyst directive. Not guilty by reason of insanity. I won't kill them unless there is no other option. And I won't "end their torment" because of how easily that could be turned back on me.

No, s/he is not telling *other* people not to kill the Reapers.

But if that doesn't say "I'm not killing the Reapers".. Then please tell me what does, Dreaman.

That does not mean he won't kill the reapers. That means he would not blindly do it. He has not decline the option.
No statement of "never "was ever said.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Go and read their quotes, I'm not going to go do your research for you.
I have. That's  why I know your wrong.  I can even link you to their recorded comments.

They never complain about their job and seem to relish it. They gain power over others and the ability to experiment and play around with organics. I don't get how you think that's not enjoyment.

They can't complain about it and the never show they relish it.

Sure they could complain about it. And Harbinger stalking Shepard and purposely terrorizing Horizon's citizens with his speech, come on.

How can something that in indoctrinated to do what they are told to the point of not even questioning orders complain?
Added, Harbinger never complains himself.

Because they are still sapient and still have a kind of conciousness. They know they are doing things, they just justify it with faulty logic handed down to them. Therefore, they could still complain because they still possess SOME free will, especially Sovereign-class.

Sapient does not equal having a will. Look at Saren. He did not even know he was indoctrinated and he was sapient. He had no will.

[Wayning_Star]

Kabooooom wrote...

Ender's game.

Good pick. Bioware clearly liked Ender's Game too since they directly ripped it off and didn't even hide the fact that they did lol.

Still, I love that they did. Mad props.

You know I read a lot of Cards books, but don't remember that one? Strange..in a strange land. lol

found this online. Might interest you?

http://en.wikipedia....er's_Game_(film)

[Nightwriter]

Kabooooom wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Jumping straight to the Kevorkian method is a bit abrupt.

Except the entire ending scenario is abrupt, and that's what everyone has to work with. So you have a choice about what you value more, the ability for organics to choose their own fate, or the lives of the Reapers. That's ultimately what it comes down to since you have no further information.

This is not a defense of the "kill them to free them" argument. It is a defense of the "I had to choose between the Reapers and organics" argument. Which is a lot better.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Go and read their quotes, I'm not going to go do your research for you.
I have. That's  why I know your wrong.  I can even link you to their recorded comments.

They never complain about their job and seem to relish it. They gain power over others and the ability to experiment and play around with organics. I don't get how you think that's not enjoyment.

They can't complain about it and the never show they relish it.

Sure they could complain about it. And Harbinger stalking Shepard and purposely terrorizing Horizon's citizens with his speech, come on.

How can something that in indoctrinated to do what they are told to the point of not even questioning orders complain?
Added, Harbinger never complains himself.

Because they are still sapient and still have a kind of conciousness. They know they are doing things, they just justify it with faulty logic handed down to them. Therefore, they could still complain because they still possess SOME free will, especially Sovereign-class.

Sapient does not equal having a will. Look at Saren. He did not even know he was indoctrinated and he was sapient. He had no will.

He broke out of indoctrination and then was forced back into it by the reaper implants. Also, he wasn't a reaper. Focus.

[Wayning_Star]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Go and read their quotes, I'm not going to go do your research for you.
I have. That's  why I know your wrong.  I can even link you to their recorded comments.

They never complain about their job and seem to relish it. They gain power over others and the ability to experiment and play around with organics. I don't get how you think that's not enjoyment.

They can't complain about it and the never show they relish it.

Sure they could complain about it. And Harbinger stalking Shepard and purposely terrorizing Horizon's citizens with his speech, come on.

How can something that in indoctrinated to do what they are told to the point of not even questioning orders complain?
Added, Harbinger never complains himself.

Because they are still sapient and still have a kind of conciousness. They know they are doing things, they just justify it with faulty logic handed down to them. Therefore, they could still complain because they still possess SOME free will, especially Sovereign-class.

like a boot in the military might ... complain?

[dreman9999]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

Ender's game.

Good pick. Bioware clearly liked Ender's Game too since they directly ripped it off and didn't even hide the fact that they did lol.

Still, I love that they did. Mad props.

You know I read a lot of Cards books, but don't remember that one? Strange..in a strange land. lol

found this online. Might interest you?

http://en.wikipedia....er's_Game_(film)

What? That is one of his best books.

[Kabooooom]

Wayning_Star wrote...


You know I read a lot of Cards books, but don't remember that one? Strange..in a strange land. lol

found this online. Might interest you?

http://en.wikipedia....er's_Game_(film)

Hmm I'm not sure how I feel about an Ender's movie. But dude, if you haven't read Ender's Game you should. If you like Mass Effect, you'll like that story. The Rachni war plot is basically identical to it, more or less, except that it is delivered in a way more cool way and involves uplifting children against their will instead of pissed off Krogans.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:01 .

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Point to me the show of Joy in that?

How about you read over Harbinger's quotes and his Arrival conversation

And listen to Sovereigns coversation again

I have. Still no expression of joy in those quotes.

Then there's no reason to continue this conversation with you

[Wayning_Star]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Go and read their quotes, I'm not going to go do your research for you.
I have. That's  why I know your wrong.  I can even link you to their recorded comments.

They never complain about their job and seem to relish it. They gain power over others and the ability to experiment and play around with organics. I don't get how you think that's not enjoyment.

They can't complain about it and the never show they relish it.

Sure they could complain about it. And Harbinger stalking Shepard and purposely terrorizing Horizon's citizens with his speech, come on.

How can something that in indoctrinated to do what they are told to the point of not even questioning orders complain?
Added, Harbinger never complains himself.

Because they are still sapient and still have a kind of conciousness. They know they are doing things, they just justify it with faulty logic handed down to them. Therefore, they could still complain because they still possess SOME free will, especially Sovereign-class.

Sapient does not equal having a will. Look at Saren. He did not even know he was indoctrinated and he was sapient. He had no will.

He broke out of indoctrination and then was forced back into it by the reaper implants. Also, he wasn't a reaper. Focus.

Saren was close to melt down by the time he got to the citadel to invite the reapers to his party... They just about cooked his brain. He was under too long, but still resisted with Sheps help(only if renegade enough to overrule indoctrination..something Shep was really 'good' at.

[BatmanTurian]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Go and read their quotes, I'm not going to go do your research for you.
I have. That's  why I know your wrong.  I can even link you to their recorded comments.

They never complain about their job and seem to relish it. They gain power over others and the ability to experiment and play around with organics. I don't get how you think that's not enjoyment.

They can't complain about it and the never show they relish it.

Sure they could complain about it. And Harbinger stalking Shepard and purposely terrorizing Horizon's citizens with his speech, come on.

How can something that in indoctrinated to do what they are told to the point of not even questioning orders complain?
Added, Harbinger never complains himself.

Because they are still sapient and still have a kind of conciousness. They know they are doing things, they just justify it with faulty logic handed down to them. Therefore, they could still complain because they still possess SOME free will, especially Sovereign-class.

like a boot in the military might ... complain?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]

A boot doesn't have intelligence, a boot doesn't make plans, a boot doesn't have autonomous movements or a conciousness.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:02 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. That depends on the person. They also have to show this joy.
2. And he was indoctrianted.

Numbers thing again? alright
1. They do, but they're AIs now, emotional inflection isn't their strong suit, especially with those booming voices.
2. He was a tool to be used and cast aside like the Husks hence indoctrination which degrades your mental fucntions over time, Reapers are eternal

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:02 .

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Go and read their quotes, I'm not going to go do your research for you.
I have. That's  why I know your wrong.  I can even link you to their recorded comments.

They never complain about their job and seem to relish it. They gain power over others and the ability to experiment and play around with organics. I don't get how you think that's not enjoyment.

They can't complain about it and the never show they relish it.

Sure they could complain about it. And Harbinger stalking Shepard and purposely terrorizing Horizon's citizens with his speech, come on.

How can something that in indoctrinated to do what they are told to the point of not even questioning orders complain?
Added, Harbinger never complains himself.

Because they are still sapient and still have a kind of conciousness. They know they are doing things, they just justify it with faulty logic handed down to them. Therefore, they could still complain because they still possess SOME free will, especially Sovereign-class.

Sapient does not equal having a will. Look at Saren. He did not even know he was indoctrinated and he was sapient. He had no will.

He broke out of indoctrination and then was forced back into it by the reaper implants. Also, he wasn't a reaper. Focus.

No he did not break out of indoctrination. He had some doubts. Then he was talked, key word, talked int o having implants put in.

That does not scream free will.

[KENNY4753]

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Again, that does not mean he would not pick it.

How does it mean he wouldn't pick it. He said he wouldn't kill them unless it was the last resort.

If something is a last resort there is no other option available, therefore they wouldn't be picking it freely, they would be forced to destroy them. 

He said he would do it as a last means. The option to kill the reapers is no off the table.

Wow........

please read this before you respond...

I am not saying they wouldn't destroy the Reapers at all. I am saying that if he had the choice to destroy them or choose something else he would not destroy them but if destroy is the last resort (meaning there is no other option available) he would choose destroy because he had no other choice to pick. That is what the last resort means.

Modifié par KENNY4753, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:07 .

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

No he did not break out of indoctrination. He had some doubts. Then he was talked, key word, talked int o having implants put in.

That does not scream free will.

Once again, he wasn't a reaper. Stop changing the subject.

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. That depends on the person. They also have to show this joy.
2. And he was indoctrianted.

Numbers thing again? alright
1. They do, but they're AIs now, emotional inflection isn't their strong suit, especially with those booming voices.
2. He was a tool to be used and cast aside like the Husks hence indoctrination which degrades your mental fucntions over time, Reapers are eternal

1.But how do you see joy? What indicates it? Please, point it out.
2. It only degrades mental function if it's allowed to. That would mean if they want to keep you compitent, you stay compitent.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No he did not break out of indoctrination. He had some doubts. Then he was talked, key word, talked int o having implants put in.

That does not scream free will.

Once again, he wasn't a reaper. Stop changing the subject.

A  reaper is the minds of organics and synthetics joined as one will inside a reaper body. Those minds are still indoctrianted.

Saren many be just one mind and he is still in his original body but, he is still indoctrianted like a reaper.

Modifié par dreman9999, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:08 .

[Humakt83]

No one is innocent!

Least of all the Reapers.

[dreman9999]

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Again, that does not mean he would not pick it.

How does it mean he wouldn't pick it. He said he wouldn't kill them unless it was the last resort.

If something is a last resort there is no other option available, therefore they wouldn't be picking it freely, they would be forced to destroy them. 

He said he would do it as a last means. The option to kill the reapers is no off the table.

Wow........

please read this before you respond...

I am not saying they wouldn't destroy the Reapers at all. I am saying that if he had the choice to destroy them or choose something else he would not destroy them but if destroy is the last resort (meaning there is no other option available) he would choose destroy because he had no other choice to pick. That is what the last resort means.

But that does not mean he is ageinst destory. That just means it's not his prefered option.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No he did not break out of indoctrination. He had some doubts. Then he was talked, key word, talked int o having implants put in.

That does not scream free will.

Once again, he wasn't a reaper. Stop changing the subject.

A  reaper is the minds of organics and synthetics joined as one will inside a reaper body. Those minds are still indoctrianted.

Saren many be just one mind and he is still in his original body but, he is still indoctrianted like a reaper.

You are impossible to debate with. Half of what you say has no logic or relevance.