985 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

Mr.House wrote...
No, starbrat gave them purpose and gives them orders, that's it. When they start enjoying it and love to do it and think organics are trash, then yes, they are not innocent. We have seen this by two major Reapers(which already contradict starbrat) All of their dialog shows Reapers are not innocent, but hey if you want to think so be my guest. They are war crimminals just like starbrat and thus, tube shooting.

And if they were controlled in a similar manner to how the Geth were? ie - not directly controlled but indirectly controlled, allowed to possess the illusion of free-will but in reality their actions were influenced by the Catalyst.

I've got to say, I think the logical premise behind this discussion is absurd, but OP had it right - the Reapers were under the Catalyst's control, and the Synthesis ending proves that they do not continue the harvest, presumably for this reason.

But they still need to be destroyed in my book.

[DeinonSlayer]

AresKeith wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

*Looks at Harbinger and Sovereign* Yup, they are really innocent and don't enjoy what they where doing.

"Your worlds will become our laboratories", yep very innocent

Oh, but he's not in control!

I WILL DIRECT THIS PERSONALLY.
THE FORCES OF THE UNIVERSE BEND TO ME.

He's just misunderstood!

YOU WILL KNOW PAIN, SHEPARD.
THE DEAD ARE USELESS.

This hurts me.

[Mr.House]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

*Looks at Harbinger and Sovereign* Yup, they are really innocent and don't enjoy what they where doing.

Yeah, and I'm sure Dr. Amanda Kenson was always a trecherous murder. How could Hackett not clearly see that?

ME Hackett is diffrent from ME2/3 Hackett. Because they are nothing alike except they share the same name and voice.

[Steelcan]

The reapers do not deserve mercy, pity, or compromise. Kill them all, no hesitation, no remorse. End their tyranny and genocide once and for all. Let life make its own decisions and live with them. We don't need or want these abominations telling us what is best for us.

[AresKeith]

Nightwriter wrote...

Sorry jtav, but they didn't successfully flip the Reapers. It seems really clear from Sovereign and Harbinger's behavior that the Reapers were mustache-twirling villains until the writers had a change of heart and decided to make a sudden reversal. So at the last minute I am asked to accept a revelation that contradicts the emotion the writers had been trying to build up in me for the last two games.

Homey don't play that game. I'd be happy to discuss their innocence if the flip had been well written. Sadly it was not.

But they want to save us from Synthetics

When there the ones who cause the problems in the first place

[Steelcan]

Kabooooom wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
No, starbrat gave them purpose and gives them orders, that's it. When they start enjoying it and love to do it and think organics are trash, then yes, they are not innocent. We have seen this by two major Reapers(which already contradict starbrat) All of their dialog shows Reapers are not innocent, but hey if you want to think so be my guest. They are war crimminals just like starbrat and thus, tube shooting.

And if they were controlled in a similar manner to how the Geth were? ie - not directly controlled but indirectly controlled, allowed to possess the illusion of free-will but in reality their actions were influenced by the Catalyst.

I've got to say, I think the logical premise behind this discussion is absurd, but OP had it right - the Reapers were under the Catalyst's control, and the Synthesis ending proves that they do not continue the harvest, presumably for this reason.

But they still need to be destroyed in my book.

. They don't need to harvest because the catalyst has won. All life has been synthesized

[Reorte]

Everyone who we see who is indoctrinated behaves rather oddly, usually going on about how great the Reapers are with fanatical enthusiasm. The Reapers don't behave like that and appear to be completely in control of themselves. It's not really surprising since that's exactly what they were created to be but it pretty much is a fundamental part of their nature and changing it would involve effectively brainwashing them anyway.

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

The reapers do not deserve mercy, pity, or compromise. Kill them all, no hesitation, no remorse. End their tyranny and genocide once and for all. Let life make its own decisions and live with them. We don't need or want these abominations telling us what is best for us.

^ This.

[Kabooooom]

HYR 2.0 wrote...


In this case, you cannot assume to know what's mercy for other people (as many Destroyers do).

I already addressed this. Perhaps you should read my second post (I think) on page one. I'm too lazy to quote myself on it.

But I pointed out that none of the endings are morally ideal, and that was the intent and point of them. If you view preserving the Reapers as a moral act and freeing them of the Catalyst's influence at the expense of the choice for every organic being to choose their own fate - then pick Synthesis. If you think that the Reapers are a sad abomination, and that the galaxy should choose Synthesis on its own - then pick Destroy.

Neither one is morally superior to the other, and a logical argument could be made to support both. It depends on what the player values more.

I could get on board with that. Revelation takes place on Sidon, Camala, Elysium, and the Citadel. That's enough exotic locales I think to introduce the audience to the ME universe without being overwhelming. It takes place after the First Contact War, so it wouldn't be cliche, and Shep isn't the main character.

I think that Synthesis is what the Catalyst wants as well, and that choosing that is basically agreeing and bending to his will - for what it is worth.

But, the Reapers were under his control. This is made pretty clear. No organic being wants to be "preserved" in Reaper form, yet as soon as they are they are willing as all hell to get on board with the Harvest. When the Catalyst is removed from the picture, they are seemingly free. In Control, Shep directly controls the Reapers by becoming the new Catalyst.

The evidence that they are being directed by the Catalyst is pretty solid, and it is clearly what Bioware intended to get across.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:26 .

[Mr.House]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

*Looks at Harbinger and Sovereign* Yup, they are really innocent and don't enjoy what they where doing.

Did you not play ME3?
They were put on a leash and treated like animals by the catalsyt

. Reaper on Rannoch disagrees

He was being controlled by the Catalyst, they were not his words.
He felt a great sorrow for organics.

Headcanon can't be used to argue this.

[Silcron]

"Sure, they're so innocent we should totally let them rule over us. After all they got thousands of years of experience. They're the best for that. Look at them, all they did was for our sake, we should totally follow them to those tubes to ascend to that glorious new form of existance "

Said the totally not indoctrinated guy.

[AresKeith]

Lets not forget that conversation with Harbinger in Arrival

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Somebody got lost along the way here.

Doesn't matter, gotta go move my car, so... HYR out.

[jtav]

Nightwriter wrote...

Sorry jtav, but they didn't successfully flip the Reapers. It seems really clear from Sovereign and Harbinger's behavior that the Reapers were mustache-twirling villains until the writers had a change of heart and decided to make a sudden reversal. So at the last minute I am asked to accept a revelation that contradicts the emotion the writers had been trying to build up in me for the last two games.

Homey don't play that game. I'd be happy to discuss their innocence if the flip had been well written. Sadly it was not.

Sure it's poorly written. Godawful. But it's still a fact of the universe.

[Foxhound2121]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

They still need to answer for crimes. Given what they have racked up, destruction is the only way.

Obeying, taking orders, and being manipulated has never been an excuse.

Is it a crime to be forced to kill against your will?

If they are a puppet, how can it be against their will?

Because they are not a puppet.

Then they have free will however twisted that free will is.

[Nightwriter]

jtav wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Shooting the tube would thus mean freeing them from their millions of years of torment.

"You. Whatever species was harvested to make you? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now, they can rest in peace."

No. Killing a sapient being to "end their torment" is wrong. Killing them in self-defense wouldn't be, if it were necessary.

It isn't wrong unless it isn't their choice. A living being has the right to choose to end its suffering. What is wrong is allowing a creature to exist in unendurable pain because you are not willing to have a death on your personal conscience.

However, since we have no evidence to suggest how much pain or torment the Reapers are in, and since Shepard makes no attempt to find out if the Reapers are suffering or whether they wish to live or die, the whole "kill them to free them" argument seems a bit iffy to me. If you are going to look at the Reapers as potential innocents (which if you are, you're being very generous to BioWare), and you want to "help" them, you'd think you'd at least investigate a bit and find out if there is anything that can be done for the trapped organic "minds" in each Reaper. Or something. Jumping straight to the Kevorkian method is a bit abrupt.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:34 .

[Foxhound2121]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

They still need to answer for crimes. Given what they have racked up, destruction is the only way.

Obeying, taking orders, and being manipulated has never been an excuse.

Since when?

Have you ever heard the term "unwilling assailant" - ?

Or "framed" - ?

Totally applies when the person is a weapon of mass destruction.

[FOX216BC]

The A-bomb is also innocent, it's result however is not.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Try saying that to all of the survivors currently hiding in caves and tunnels like rats while the reapers hunt them down.

[Kabooooom]

Nightwriter wrote...
Jumping straight to the Kevorkian method is a bit abrupt.

Except the entire ending scenario is abrupt, and that's what everyone has to work with. So you have a choice about what you value more, the ability for organics to choose their own fate, or the lives of the Reapers. That's ultimately what it comes down to since you have no further information.

[N7 samus aran]

i dont want to be turned in to Husk and start kill everybody in my sight and even altough Reapers are controlled by Catalyst that doens make them innocent

Modifié par N7 samus aran, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:43 .

[Villiamus]

The Protheans strongly disagree.