985 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

OperatingWookie wrote...

spirosz wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Anderson said, "but only if there was no other way" in ME1 in regards to sacrifice.

You can save the Geth, EDI, and the reapers. There is another way.

By choosing destroy, you betray your mentor. Do not say that he was for destroy, he did not fully comprehend the situation.

Do you want to go against the very words of the man that guided Shepard throughout the series?

Yes. 

You feel no sympathy for the man that played a role in helping you?

You are a monster.

Of course I do, but that's something my Shepard is willing to live with.  

[jtav]

I'd also add that, if they are lying here, the lies are making their core fanbase unhappy. They have everything to gain by telling the truth, but they don't.

[spirosz]

I actually agree with jtav and have the same mindset for the Reapers, but I personally don't agree with the way Synthesis is executed in the game and I wouldn't want to "Control" the Reapers, as that just seems worse for them, used by the Catalyst and used by ShepardAI tbh, shieeeeeeeeet.

[AresKeith]

OperatingWookie wrote...

spirosz wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Anderson said, "but only if there was no other way" in ME1 in regards to sacrifice.

You can save the Geth, EDI, and the reapers. There is another way.

By choosing destroy, you betray your mentor. Do not say that he was for destroy, he did not fully comprehend the situation.

Do you want to go against the very words of the man that guided Shepard throughout the series?

Yes. 

You feel no sympathy for the man that played a role in helping you?

You are a monster.

And siding with the TIM or the concept that Saren talked about when he was fully indoctrinated by Sovereign, isn't a betrayal to Anderson?

Because he would have said the same thing Legion said in ME2 (I think) "There will be no compromise with the Old Machines/Reapers"

[jtav]

I think you can justify Control as a holding pattern, keeping the status quo until you figure out what to do.

[AlanC9]

AresKeith wrote...
And siding with the TIM or the concept that Saren talked about when he was fully indoctrinated by Sovereign, isn't a betrayal to Anderson?

Yep. Turns out Anderson was wrong. Sweet, sweet irony.

[spirosz]

jtav wrote...

I think you can justify Control as a holding pattern, keeping the status quo until you figure out what to do.

And what do we do?  Toss them into the sun?  Control them to hide till the time is right to "release them to the galaxy" if **** hits the fan again?  

[clennon8]

jtav wrote...

clen, yes I was a literalist because I've played games like ME3 before. The ending has all the hallmarks of a dev that has run out of time. Play KOTOR2 without the restoration mod sometime and ME3 no longer seems that strange. IT requires an "aha!" moment, a revelation that what we saw before was a sham. It would greatly increase fan goodwill to have such, but the devs have flat out deenied such will happen, no leaks from people who don't already have a vested interest in IT have occurred and the game scri[t for god's sake associates Synthesis with a a perfect game. The. Endings. Happened.

Pretty much nothing can increase fan good will at this point.  Bioware definitely miscalculated in that regard.  They performed a social experiment on their fanbase, and it backfired. 

Modifié par clennon8, 27 octobre 2012 - 11:07 .

[AlanC9]

jtav wrote...

I think you can justify Control as a holding pattern, keeping the status quo until you figure out what to do.

Hey, anyone remember Foundation's Edge? Asimov has a fairly similar choice setup  -- inadequate information, huge consequences -so Trevize picks Galaxia since it doesn't immediately blow somebody up.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 octobre 2012 - 02:52 .

[clennon8]

jtav wrote...

I'd also add that, if they are lying here, the lies are making their core fanbase unhappy. They have everything to gain by telling the truth, but they don't.

Artistic integrity, jtav.  Artistic integrity.

[AlanC9]

spirosz wrote...

And what do we do?  Toss them into the sun?  Control them to hide till the time is right to "release them to the galaxy" if **** hits the fan again?  

Have them fix the relays first, though.

[spirosz]

AlanC9 wrote...

spirosz wrote...

And what do we do?  Toss them into the sun?  Control them to hide till the time is right to "release them to the galaxy" if **** hits the fan again?  

Have them fix the relays first, though.

 

[clennon8]

clennon8 wrote...

jtav wrote...

clen, yes I was a literalist because I've played games like ME3 before. The ending has all the hallmarks of a dev that has run out of time. Play KOTOR2 without the restoration mod sometime and ME3 no longer seems that strange. IT requires an "aha!" moment, a revelation that what we saw before was a sham. It would greatly increase fan goodwill to have such, but the devs have flat out deenied such will happen, no leaks from people who don't already have a vested interest in IT have occurred and the game scri[t for god's sake associates Synthesis with a a perfect game. The. Endings. Happened.

Pretty much nothing can increase fan good will at this point.  They certainly miscalculated in that regard.  They performed a social experiment on their fanbase, and it has backfired.  It's certainly a pickle they're in.  Confirm IT, and be bombarded with hate and vitriol from everyone who actually fell for the same trick TIM and Saren did and expected a different result.

Responding to myself...

I was perhaps overly cynical in this assessment.  A well-done reveal (or bolstering) of indoctrination theory might be grudgingly accepted by many of the people who currently count themselves as literalists.  And it would be redemptive to many of the people who currently abhor the literal interpretation of the ending(s).

There is a lot of anger right now in the core fanbase that Bioware simply can't quell with a blog post or a few tweets.  Anything they say to soothe one group will set off another.  However, if they have something scripted, and they stick to their guns, they may be able to salvage some of the good will they've lost.

Modifié par clennon8, 27 octobre 2012 - 03:27 .

[AlanC9]

clennon8 wrote...

I was perhaps overly cynical in this assessment.  A well-done reveal (or bolstering) of indoctrination theory might be grudgingly accepted by many of the people who currently count themselves as literalists.  And it would be redemptive to many of the people who currently abhor the literal interpretation of the ending(s).

There is a lot of anger right now in the core fanbase that Bioware simply can't quell with a blog post or a few tweets.  Anything they say to soothe one group will set off another.  However, if they have something scripted, and they stick to their guns, they may be able to salvage some of the good will they've lost.

Itals mine.

I think they'd actually be better off calling it a retcon. IT fans would assume that to be a lie - you don't get to be an IT fan without being OK with Bio lying to you -- and nonfans would mind a retcon less.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 octobre 2012 - 03:41 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Solmanian wrote...
Haven't played the leviathan DLC yet (waiting for the omega to make a full playthrough), but I know it's about a rogue reaper, so there is such a thing.

Sure, let's just go with that...

[Slayer299]

jtav wrote...

Somehow I doubt the minds within Harbinger were fluffy bunnies. But if you could have freed Kenson, Benezia, et al, wouldn't you?

So your paralell logic is that because they were indoctrinated they were absolved of any responsibilty then?

[Barquiel]

I don't remember anyone feeling bad about killing the collectors in ME2. If the reapers are innocent...they're also innocent, right?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Barquiel wrote...

I don't remember anyone feeling bad about killing the collectors in ME2. If the reapers are innocent...they're also innocent, right?

We didn't realize that they were being controlled by directives designed by the Leviathans yet. Now that we know, yes they are. At least there are more than just those in ME2 so they can enjoy innocence too.

[AresKeith]

Barquiel wrote...

I don't remember anyone feeling bad about killing the collectors in ME2. If the reapers are innocent...they're also innocent, right?

Killing them was an act of mercy, since they were twisted husks of the Protheans

[Barquiel]

I agree.

There was nothing "prothean" left in the collectors. And I don't think there was anything of Lilith left in the human reaper.

"Whatever they were, gone forever."
- Mordin Solus

Modifié par Barquiel, 27 octobre 2012 - 07:03 .

[Bill Casey]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I don't remember anyone feeling bad about killing the collectors in ME2. If the reapers are innocent...they're also innocent, right?

We didn't realize that they were being controlled by directives designed by the Leviathans yet. Now that we know, yes they are. At least there are more than just those in ME2 so they can enjoy innocence too.

You already knew the Collectors were tools after you went to the collector ship, and uploaded information from a terminal to the Normandy...


Mordin: "Early stages similar to indoctrination. Can guess captured protheans lost intelligence over several cloned generations. Cybernetic augmentation widespread afterward. As protheans failed, reapers added tech to compensate. Mental capacity almost gone. Replaced by overworked sensory input transfers. Transmitting data to masters."

Shepard: "Is there anything we can do to help them?"

Mordin: "No. No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever. Understand now? No art, no culture. Closer to husks than slaves. Tools for reapers. Protheans dead. Collectors just final insult.  *nasal inhale* Must be destroyed."

Modifié par Bill Casey, 27 octobre 2012 - 07:21 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Bill Casey wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I don't remember anyone feeling bad about killing the collectors in ME2. If the reapers are innocent...they're also innocent, right?

We didn't realize that they were being controlled by directives designed by the Leviathans yet. Now that we know, yes they are. At least there are more than just those in ME2 so they can enjoy innocence too.

You already knew the Collectors were tools after you went to the collector ship, and uploaded information from a terminal to the Normandy...


Mordin: "Early stages similar to indoctrination. Can guess captured protheans lost intelligence over several cloned generations. Cybernetic augmentation widespread afterward. As protheans failed, reapers added tech to compensate. Mental capacity almost gone. Replaced by overworked sensory input transfers. Transmitting data to masters."

Shepard: "Is there anything we can do to help them?"

Mordin: "No. No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever. Understand now? No art, no culture. Closer to husks than slaves. Tools for reapers. Protheans dead. Collectors just final insult.  *nasal inhale* Must be destroyed."

Forgot about that dialogue. Point still stands though, they were controlled by Reapers, which were controlled by Catalyst, who was programmed by Leviathans so they are just as innocent and Leviathans are responsible for their actions.

[Ieldra]

Barquiel wrote...
I agree.

There was nothing "prothean" left in the collectors. And I don't think there was anything of Lilith left in the human reaper.

"Whatever they were, gone forever."
- Mordin Solus

There was enough "Prothean" left in the Collectors that we could find out an individual's place of origin based on its DNA. Remember what EDI said on the Collector ship?

I would agree that they're probably gone in this case - they had not been "uploaded and conjoined" like the others - but Mordin isn't omniscient.

[majormajormmajor]

Sure they're innocent.

Innocent of the Reichstag fire.