985 réponses à ce sujet

[jackmeup]

jtav wrote...

And all three options end the threat. Fire extinguished.

your fire example makes sense but their is no way in real life that they would be able to live no matter if they were controlled by catalyst you wouldnt sit there and try to convince all the people who lost family and friends to these death machines that they are just misunderstood

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

dreman butchering proper spelling?

People defending the Reapers and/or glow boy?

Good to know the BSN hasn't changed in my absence.

[Ticonderoga117]

jtav wrote...

And all three options end the threat. Fire extinguished.

Noooo... the fire is still around in two of the proper endings.
In one you think you can control fire.
In the other you think fire is such a good idea you decide to eat some, and then live buddy-buddy with the rest.

Destroy is the only ending in which the fire is gone.

[jtav]

The harvest is over in all endings. If I can make the Reapers friendly and integrate them into society, so much the better.

[Ticonderoga117]

jtav wrote...

The harvest is over in all endings. If I can make the Reapers friendly and integrate them into society, so much the better.

Not sure if that kind of hubris is worse or better than TIM's thinking he can control them.

[Ome6ablak]

I would only use control or synthesis in order to keep the Leviathans at bay. Who knows if they'll come back after the reapers are gone and try to enslave all other races again. Otherwise kill the reapers. They are not alive anymore.

Modifié par Ome6ablak, 28 octobre 2012 - 06:45 .

[fr33stylez]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The lack of differentiation in arguments like
this never ceases to amaze me. The Reapers should never have been created, and
nobody denies that the Reaperization was evil. However, a Reaper is
"billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined". It doesn't
matter how they were created, they are valid life. Actually, there is no such
thing as "invalid life" at all. 

I'm not sure what valid or invalid life has to do with anything. I'm not going to keep a construction around that wipes out everyone in the galaxy just because they were made from the goo of for living beings. By your logic, you shouldn't have killed a single enemy in the ME series, especially when you had the opportunity to avoid/run away.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Again the lack of distinction. I value life, but not any specific biochemical composition thereof. What the hell does it matter if some process changes my DNA into some other stuff with added functionality, as long as I remain who I am? I'm not saying applying this to the whole galaxy isn't problematic, but the idea of the "sanctity of life" is much
abused in arguments like yours.

You can't claim to value life but not the specific biochemical composition of everyone in the galaxy; this is an
oxymoron. You've come to your own conclusion at what the value of life means for everyone in the galaxy without their input. Apparently, you believe you have the right to alter everyone's core being a long as they remain 'alive' in
some way. This seems like a very twisted perception on the sanctity of life - I don't want to be transformed into some hybrid just because you don't think there's any difference.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 28 octobre 2012 - 06:50 .

[BatmanTurian]

jtav wrote...

People retain their identities post-Synthesis. Most slides are identical to their Destroy version except for the green overlay. The crew and Jacob still grieve.

Pre-Synthesis Javik would completely disagree with you. In fact, if he had access to a time machine and knew it was going to happen, he would go to the future, put down everyone in the plaque scene, then strangle or cut the throat of his brainwashed future self, because that's just how Javik rolls.

Javik acting completely unlike himself, including accepting the Reapers and the change to himself after a) having his civilization and people wiped from the face of the galaxy and becoming the last of his species and his species having to fight an enemy, the Zha'til, who were synthesis themselves hijacked by the Reapers, puts the lie to Synthesis. Javik acting that way screams that something is not right. Not only that, but no organic voices their point of view in either the synthetic or control endings, which is disturbing and suspect.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:15 .

[Ome6ablak]

jtav wrote...

People retain their identities post-Synthesis. Most slides are identical to their Destroy version except for the green overlay. The crew and Jacob still grieve.

Well if everyone retains their identities whats the point of synthesis? People will still fight and kill each other over old hatreds, land and power.

[Scott Sion]

N7Gold wrote...

plnero wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

"When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict, or is it doing what it was created to do? We are no different."

To put it simply:

Reapers and Catalyst = Fire

The Leviathans = Arsonists

Why blame the fire for the conflict when it is the arsonists who are truly responsible for the victims that burned in the fire?

You don't have to blame the fire to know you have to put it out.

You're right, someone has to put out the fire... and then go after the arsonists.

Are you saying that right after saving the galaxy from near destruction you're going to start another war with near god like creatures? 

I'm not going to start it, they will. They view all life as tools. They want to control us? Over my dead body!

There's not very many of them left so they might not be to eager. I still would rather wait a bit before attacking them.

[Sonashi]

jtav wrote...

The harvest is over in all endings. If I can make the Reapers friendly and integrate them into society, so much the better.

Yup, but that reminds me of Fallout New Vegas Tenpenny tower quest and its diplomatic solution. Original residents living with Ghouls in peace...

[jtav]

ME's always been idealistic. And I have to try, don't I?

[BatmanTurian]

jtav wrote...

ME's always been idealistic. And I have to try, don't I?

idealism often goes hand-in-hand with naivete

[Sonashi]

jtav wrote...

ME's always been idealistic. And I have to try, don't I?

Try harder... in real life. How can you let some people to ruin a part of the game for you? You want Synthesis to become a canon ending just to spite some poor destroyers. That's not very idealistic. Moreover that makes you look like hypocrite. Always a victim. You need to grow some skin.

Parent mode: off

Modifié par Sonashi, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:04 .

[Sinekein]

jtav wrote...

ME's always been idealistic. And I have to try, don't I?

Lol.

Well, indeed, the Catalyst was the one responsible in the first place. Like HAL in 2001 : Space Odyssey, he was given a task : I HAVE to preserve organic life. As an AI, he had a very high level of control on Synthetics. But he couldn't simply destroy the Synthetics created by the Organics, because the Organic civilization would keep advancing, and could theoretically create some Synthetic AI that would be more advanced than him, making him unable to complete his task.

The Reapers civilization was logical : use the organics to protect the organics. Problem is, for an AI, a life is a life. An entire civilization and the Reaper created from this civilization have the same value. Its logic only makes sense if you don't value the life in the first place.

Consider HAL : he had to hide the purpose of the mission to the crew. But, his task is also to relay information to the crew. The only way to solve this dilemma : kill the crew. This way, he can pursue his mission safely. 

If you consider HAL as innocent, then indeed, the Catalyst (and the Reapers) are innocent. I also suggest a psychological check.

Analogy : the Australian government decides that he has to protect his citizens from skin cancer. But the Australians keep going to the beach, even when they are told to use sun lotion or to stay in shady places. Solution : they lock everyone in giant caves. It's for their own good, they aren't evil, aren't they ?

[R3MUS]

Guys, i just came up with something. The Reaper names.

Sovereign called himself Nazara. What if Nazara were the name of the species harvested to make Sovereign?

Nazara - species name, Sovereign - Reaper name
Leviathan - species name, Harbinger - Reaper name
Human (****** Sapiens) - species name, Vanquisher - Reaper name (yeah, i made that Reaper name up)

Totally makes sense. But it feels weird calling a Reaper, Human as a name.Or maybe ****** Sapiens would be more accurate?

Modifié par R3MUS, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:59 .

[Hrothdane]

A computer virus has no concept that what it does is wrong, so I guess I should get rid of my antivirus program.

[Sinekein]

Hrothdane wrote...

A computer virus has no concept that what it does is wrong, so I guess I should get rid of my antivirus program.

All viruses are only transmitting their RNAs and DNAs when they make someone sick. So while you're at it, stop seeing doctors. They are evil overlords trying to commit genocide.

[drayfish]

AlanC9 wrote...

Presumably that dreman's made a typo. I don't know why everyone isn't using a browser with autocorrect. My iPad even knows how to spell Prothean, though it insists on capitalizing the word, and I'm pretty sure that's no more correct than capitalizing human.

Of course, not all ethical systems need to compromise there. Any flavor of utilitarian wouldn't see it as such -- assuming that "ethical compromise" even applies to a utilitarian. And even a deontological system can get away with Destroy if the system has an escape hatch for unintended known consequences, such as the double effect doctrine. Might even work for Control too, depending on what Shepard does with the power.

 I'd ask what you mean by "existential nihilism," but I guess you're done with this.

Dreman made a typo...?

With the very real danger of just sounding snotty, part of the reason I have given up on that discussion is because I frequently had no idea what was being said. I'm used to wading through some misspelling, but there have been whole posts that were almost literally unintelligible - and given the gravity of what was being debated it was too much to try and reconstruct someone else's argument from a word salad, while also making myself understood.

In any case, you make a number of very salient points, and you are right, for some players I am sure they can apply those beliefs to that decision making process perfectly. But Mass Effect was always presented to be a reflection of the player's own choices - choices in a limited through line of narrative, to be fair, but nonetheless reflective of each player's morality - and I think that it is rather disingenuous for the game to force players embrace such a philosophy, despite what their beliefs might have been, in its final moments. If this was all just a hypothetical training video for an incredibly specific utilitarianism then the very final minutes of a hundred hour saga is a pretty crappy place to make your point.

Beyond that, my issue with the reading that Dreman is positing is that it demands players give in to the belief that all such decisions are relative; that one needs to forego one's personal beliefs, or respect for the fundamental rights of others, because the stakes are somehow higher than all that - because this is about defeating the Reapers 'at any cost' after all...

But that conceit is not actually true. Indeed, such a narrow view actually breaks the game...

Because, ultimately, no matter what you choose, the Reapers get destroyed. That's just fact. Even if Shepard selects not to agree with the Reaper King and chooses to fight on, trusting in Liara's beacon for the next cycle as a backup plan, the enemy is still wiped out - life is still allowed to reassert itself in the universe.

So the question is never 'What are you willing to do? How far are you willing to go, to stop the Reapers?' They are done for anyway. The choice is arbitrary -

The real question of the game - as it has always been for three narratives now - is why did you make the decision you did...

Why did you cure (or not) the Genophage? Did you have faith, based upon your observation of them, that the Krogan would keep themselves under control this time? Or did you think is wasn't worth the cost? Maybe you had always agreed with the Salarian geneticists in the first place...

Why did you resolve the Geth/Quarian conflict in the way you did? Did you think a burgeoning new race deserved the right to live? Did you fear that the Geth had already proved themselves not be trusted once before? Did you prosper a fractious peace, hoping that old wounds could be healed?

Why did you choose Kaiden over Ashley? Or vice versa? Was it a decision made pragmatically (I need the biotic?), on friendship (but she is just learning to look at the universe with wonder...), or did you only choose one because in your tactical opinion the other could not be trusted to do the job?

The concern of the games have always been about the reason that you make the choices that you do. And morality, ethics, the faiths that one chooses to invest it - whether it is ultimately motivated by family, love, duty, ideology - is at the heart of all that. If the player is - as you pointed out - of the utilitarian mindset, then they have a certain response to these choices, and may naturally subscribe to their application; but for anyone else who thinks differently, they are told that they are wrong. That ultimately the only legitimate way to respond to such circumstances is by putting aside your beliefs in service of the 'greater good'. (...Even if you philosophically and ethically disagree with that definition of 'the greater good'.)

Every decision that you have made up to that point, based on your personal belief system, is invalidated, because when it 'really matters' - when your back is against the wall - all that personal belief crap has to be ignored. The only appropriate response is to do what your told - by the Catalyst; by the game itself - and in the aftermath rationalise away the pound of flesh that you were forced, arbitrarily to offer.

To me it seems almost cowardly - particularly when the decision is proved to be moot anyway. The Reapers are stopped no matter what. All that is left is why you chose one war crime over another - and that is not revealing of anything accept which kind of racism is more palatable.

Modifié par drayfish, 28 octobre 2012 - 10:41 .

[N7Gold]

plnero wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

plnero wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

"When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict, or is it doing what it was created to do? We are no different."

To put it simply:

Reapers and Catalyst = Fire

The Leviathans = Arsonists

Why blame the fire for the conflict when it is the arsonists who are truly responsible for the victims that burned in the fire?

You don't have to blame the fire to know you have to put it out.

You're right, someone has to put out the fire... and then go after the arsonists.

Are you saying that right after saving the galaxy from near destruction you're going to start another war with near god like creatures? 

I'm not going to start it, they will. They view all life as tools. They want to control us? Over my dead body!

There's not very many of them left so they might not be to eager. I still would rather wait a bit before attacking them.

You're right, and this is what makes me think the next ME game will be set 100 or 200 years or maybe 1000 years after ME3, they need to repopulate first.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Sinekein wrote...


All viruses are only transmitting their RNAs and DNAs when they make someone sick. So while you're at it, stop seeing doctors. They are evil overlords trying to commit genocide.

And especially never trust one who tries to sell you on any kind of a "vaccine" thingamajobber. They're made from viruses. I repeat, they are tainted by the enemy.

If you accept those, you may as well accept candy from a creep in a van.

[string3r]

You see, this is why the Reaper's origin should have remained a mystery.

[Bernhardtbr]

You humans are all racist!

Close thread.And if the candy is one of those sour ones I´d accept. I love sour candy.

[Scott Sion]

N7Gold wrote...

plnero wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

plnero wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

"When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict, or is it doing what it was created to do? We are no different."

To put it simply:

Reapers and Catalyst = Fire

The Leviathans = Arsonists

Why blame the fire for the conflict when it is the arsonists who are truly responsible for the victims that burned in the fire?

You don't have to blame the fire to know you have to put it out.

You're right, someone has to put out the fire... and then go after the arsonists.

Are you saying that right after saving the galaxy from near destruction you're going to start another war with near god like creatures? 

I'm not going to start it, they will. They view all life as tools. They want to control us? Over my dead body!

There's not very many of them left so they might not be to eager. I still would rather wait a bit before attacking them.

You're right, and this is what makes me think the next ME game will be set 100 or 200 years or maybe 1000 years after ME3, they need to repopulate first.

Eh, half the fun of the Reapers was that fact they were all powerful and mysterious. There's nothing mysterious about either the Reapers or Levithan at this point and they aren't the the indestructable "god" likes beings they looked like in ME1. 

I'd really rather have a plot with something new and mysterious. If they try to make Synthesis cannon I won't care either way because I won't play it.

Modifié par plnero, 28 octobre 2012 - 11:41 .

[devSin]

AlanC9 wrote...

Presumably that dreman's made a typo. I don't know why everyone isn't using a browser with autocorrect. My iPad even knows how to spell Prothean, though it insists on capitalizing the word, and I'm pretty sure that's no more correct than capitalizing human.

BioWare rules are to capitalize the more "fantastical" races.

In Mass Effect, this primarily means the Protheans, the Reapers, the Collectors, and the Keepers (assuming they haven't changed anything, and excepting that I may have forgotten something).

Other races are not capitalized, as you suggest.