985 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

N7 samus aran wrote...

i dont want to be truned in to Husk and star kill everybody in my sight and even altough Reapers are controlled by Catalyst that doens make them innocent

Why doesn't it? What's your rationale there?

[Capt. Pancake]

Soul8lighter wrote...

Reapers Innocent?

http://gifsoup.com/i...?id=2332127&t=o GIFSoup

absolutly love these photo and video inserts you who have the talent to do this rock! some are so d**n funny

[jtav]

Kabooooom wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Jumping straight to the Kevorkian method is a bit abrupt.

Except the entire ending scenario is abrupt, and that's what everyone has to work with. So you have a choice about what you value more, the ability for organics to choose their own fate, or the lives of the Reapers. That's ultimately what it comes down to since you have no further information.

Lives of Reapers. I would rather abridge the freedom of organics in a way that doesn't harm them than kill someone.

[Kabooooom]

jtav wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Jumping straight to the Kevorkian method is a bit abrupt.

Except the entire ending scenario is abrupt, and that's what everyone has to work with. So you have a choice about what you value more, the ability for organics to choose their own fate, or the lives of the Reapers. That's ultimately what it comes down to since you have no further information.

Lives of Reapers. I would rather abridge the freedom of organics in a way that doesn't harm them than kill someone.

Then that's a moral choice that you've decided for yourself which is no better than anyone else's opinion on the matter.

To me, forcing Synthesis upon others is a violation and is wrong. Is it more wrong than killing the Reapers? That is debatable.  

[Capt. Pancake]

N7 samus aran wrote...

i dont want to be turned in to Husk and start kill everybody in my sight and even altough Reapers are controlled by Catalyst that doens make them innocent

What about what Thane said "an assasin is a tool..blame the one who wields it" still little comfort I know but the Reapers bailed after being told to just like the Sentinals in Matrix Revolutions. I think they're indifferent to the whole thing. Further, innocence implies corruptiblity by choice they had no choice.

[ManiacG]

Harmless to organics you say?



posted this on another tread, the interesting part is 0:28-0:55


"the AI molded the dna on its deepest levels"
now sound to me that if youre implanting the entire galaxy with new dna its gonna take more than a simple blast of pure energy.... Synthesis is a trap.
and dont come here telling me *oh its because they had it implanted* altered dna is altered dna from basiacly the same source even, the only difference is the scope.

your argument is invalid.

Modifié par ManiacG, 25 octobre 2012 - 07:18 .

[clennon8]

Nightwriter wrote...

Sorry jtav, but they didn't successfully flip the Reapers. It seems really clear from Sovereign and Harbinger's behavior that the Reapers were mustache-twirling villains until the writers had a change of heart and decided to make a sudden reversal. So at the last minute I am asked to accept a revelation that contradicts the emotion the writers had been trying to build up in me for the last two games.

Homey don't play that game. I'd be happy to discuss their innocence if the flip had been well written. Sadly it was not.

This.

[Eterna]

fil009 wrote...

When fire burns is it at war?

I don't know why people have a problem with that line. It actually is a fair comparisson, a little forced, but fair. 

[CronoDragoon]

Nightwriter wrote...

Sorry jtav, but they didn't successfully flip the Reapers. It seems really clear from Sovereign and Harbinger's behavior that the Reapers were mustache-twirling villains until the writers had a change of heart and decided to make a sudden reversal. So at the last minute I am asked to accept a revelation that contradicts the emotion the writers had been trying to build up in me for the last two games.

Homey don't play that game. I'd be happy to discuss their innocence if the flip had been well written. Sadly it was not.

 Sadly the meta answer to the discrepency between Sovereign and Harby's dispositions and their later revealed situation is that the plot twist was not planned from the beginning. However, if we try to keep within the narrative for explanations, we are forced to conclude that Sovereign and Harby agreed with the logic behind the cycles, and that Sovereign at the least was repulsed by organics. Saying the Catalyst completely controlled them doesn't fly based on how they acted previously, for example their belief that Reapers were the apex of evolution where the Catalyst clearly believes they are failures.

In short, it's possible that there were a lot of Reapers who didn't want the cycle but were forced to do it. It's possible there were none. It isn't possible that "the Reapers" as a collective are innocent.

[Jenonax]

The revelation that the Reapers are innocent and puppets as it were, is very poorly done. It contradicts their nature and to top it all off Bioware don't establish who the villain of the story actually is.

If its not the Reapers as we're being asked to believe, then who is?

The Catalyst is just a computer programme stuck in his ways, adhering to a cycle of destruction he was tasked to create to ultimately save Organics. He may be going about it in the most appaling manner imaginable, but there is no malicious intent behind his actions. He is simply doing what he was told to do.

That then begs the question if the creators of the Catalyst are the antagonists. Well the Leviathans are only in it for all of five seconds and they aren't even introduced in the main game. There doesn't seem to be malicious intent with their actions either. Oddly enough, they seem to want to preserve organic life too, trying to save us from our own creations. They did it moronically and for probably purely selfish reasons, but does this make them the villains.

Ultimately, the story requires a protagonist and an antagonist to create conflict and drive the narrative. There is no conflict at the end. Shepard does what the Catalyst wants, the Catalyst hands over control to Shepard and the story doesn't end, it comes to a grinding halt.

Basically what Im trying to get at is fine, have the reapers be innocent, but for goodness sake, replace them with another antagonist!

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

They still need to answer for crimes. Given what they have racked up, destruction is the only way.

Obeying, taking orders, and being manipulated has never been an excuse.

Since when?

Have you ever heard the term "unwilling assailant" - ?

Or "framed" - ?

Totally applies when the person is a weapon of mass destruction.

What's your point? WMD aren't good or evil.

[Reap_ii]

i...dont know

[Eterna]

Reap_ii wrote...

i...dont know

Why not? Synthetics are already a part of you, can you imagine your life without them?

[Reap_ii]

Eterna5 wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...

i...dont know

Why not? Synthetics are already a part of you, can you imagine your life without them?

to be serious for a minute, i actually think that destroying the reapers is the most humane thing to do.  they are entire civilizations forced into a monstrous form.  they deserve to be set free from this horrible fate. 

[Kabooooom]

Eterna5 wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...

i...dont know

Why not? Synthetics are already a part of you, can you imagine your life without them?

That line illustrates how morally inept the Catalyst is, because he doesn't even consider the fact that it would be less than ideal to force this on the entire galaxy. He doesn't understand organics, he is only looking for a solution to the problem that the Leviathans tasked him with. That shortsightedness makes what he tells you, even if it is truthful, unlikely to be a complete analysis of the situation.

[Andromidius]

Innocent? Hardly.

The people they used to be are no more. They are a bio-mass that's been altered to make the superstructures of Reapers, and their 'collective memories' are stored within that superstructure.

The Reaper itself bares no indiction that it shares any of the viewpoints or morals of the species it was created from. Only its programming does. And its program is designed to be malevolent, cruel, ruthless and cold-blooded.

Even if we conclude they are a 'victim by design', they are still designed to act in an evil manner. And thus need to be destroyed. End of.

[Andromidius]

Kabooooom wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...

i...dont know

Why not? Synthetics are already a part of you, can you imagine your life without them?

That line illustrates how morally inept the Catalyst is, because he doesn't even consider the fact that it would be less than ideal to force this on the entire galaxy. He doesn't understand organics, he is only looking for a solution to the problem that the Leviathans tasked him with. That shortsightedness makes what he tells you, even if it is truthful, unlikely to be a complete analysis of the situation.

Not to mention the reply should have been along the lines of:

"Oh yeah.  Before I was killed by the minions of your minions, presumably on your orders.  Before you destroyed my ship and killed my crewmembers.  Before you then tried to capture my dead body to be used in your experiments.  And before you then ordered those same minions to capture thousands of humans for use in your experiments instead.

Yeah, before I had cybernetics life was pretty damn good.  And now its time to kill you, even if it means I die myself.  Your passive aggressive threats mean nothing to me, Harbinger."

[Argolas]

Reapers are machines filled with corpses. Concepts like guilt do not apply to them. I destroyed the Anvil of the Void and I destroyed the Reapers. Good riddances.

Modifié par Argolas, 25 octobre 2012 - 07:40 .

[CronoDragoon]

Reap_ii wrote...
to be serious for a minute, i actually think that destroying the reapers is the most humane thing to do.  they are entire civilizations forced into a monstrous form.  they deserve to be set free from this horrible fate. 

There are a few ways to look at this. One way is that each Reaper, as a new life form, is not responsible for the atrocities committed to birth them, and so they cannot be punished for what they cannot control.

However, that does not give them the right to life. It remains that they exist not only because of the horrors done to others, but also because they are continually utilizing what was previously the property of the individual members of a race, namely their minds and genetic material. What is compelling to me in this case is that, if you were to go back in time and ask the previous owners if they would allow their own being to be transformed in such a manner through their deaths and liquification, they would (I imagine) say no.

This is, in part, why I believe that destroying the Reapers is the right thing to do.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 octobre 2012 - 07:46 .

[eye basher]

The reapers kill them all let the devil sort them out.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Kabooooom wrote...
Yes, they are innocent. But read what you wrote right here. They exist in a horrid, torturous state. The people that were used to make the Reapers did not wish it. It preserves the essence of their species but not the true species. I bet if you were to ask them, they would ask for a merciful death. And the mentally ill comparison is a false equivalency logical fallacy.

But the torturous state may be partly because they are limited to carrying out the Catalyst's goals. Their programming may prohibit them from even contemplating a different agenda or purpose. We don't know that they would want a merciful death if they were actually freed from that constraint. They seemed to be operating with their own volition in the Synthesis ending.

So, in light of that, Destroy is the most moral choice for me. Control subverts the Reapers further, in Synthesis they are still imprisoned within Reaper bodies - Destroy frees them.

See above - nothing in the Synthesis ending suggests that they are under anyone's control. You're assuming that simply existing as a Reaper is miserable, when there is an equally strong case that what is miserable is being mind-controlled to carry out the Catalyst's directions, and that they are no longer suffering once that's over.

Control could be problematic under this assumption about the Reapers, though it's possible that AI-Shepard is leading them by consensus rather than dictating their every thought and/or action. 

[Kabooooom]

if you were to go back in time and ask the previous owners if they would allow their own being to be transformed in such a manner through their deaths and liquification, they would (I imagine) say no.

This is the crux of the argument. The initial transformation into a Reaper was a violation - no organic ever wanted that. Destroy releases them from that fate. It doesn't matter that you don't know whether or not the Reapers wish to continue existing as Reapers. In fact, I'm sure they do - because all beings have a self-preservation instinct and EDI even mentions that the Reapers likely do too. Doesn't matter. What you do know is that the initial transformation was against their will.

But the torturous state may be partly because they are limited to
carrying out the Catalyst's goals. Their programming may prohibit them
from even contemplating a different agenda or purpose. We don't know
that they would want a merciful death if they were actually freed from
that constraint. They seemed to be operating with their own volition in
the Synthesis ending.

Irrelevant. See above.

See above - nothing in the Synthesis ending suggests that they are under anyone's control.

You misread. I didn't say they were under control in Synthesis. In fact I said the exact opposite. I said they were imprisoned within Reaper bodies.

A human Reaper is not a human. It is a collection of human minds in Reaper form. It is the Reaper equivalent of humanity. It is not humanity, but something else. No organic ever wanted to become a Reaper, except those that were indoctrinated. Thus, whether they enjoy being a Reaper once they ARE a Reaper is a rather moot point. 

Modifié par Kabooooom, 25 octobre 2012 - 07:59 .

[CronoDragoon]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

But the torturous state may be partly because they are limited to carrying out the Catalyst's goals. Their programming may prohibit them from even contemplating a different agenda or purpose. We don't know that they would want a merciful death if they were actually freed from that constraint. They seemed to be operating with their own volition in the Synthesis ending.

In Synthesis yes, however before I think it more accurate to say that they are only limited insofar as their actions must either promote or be neutral towards the Catalyst's goals. They do not need to believe everything exactly as he does, evidenced by their extreme self-esteem compared to the Catalyst's borderline revulsion towards them.