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[sH0tgUn jUliA]

jtav wrote...

 In an easily missed conversation, Legion explains the Reapers are "uploaded and cojoined minds, each a nation." The people who were pulped to create the Reapers still exist in a twisted form, or at least their minds do. It is highly, highly improbable that every single Reaper would choose to continue the cycle because they are its victims. E.g. the Reaperization process imparts some form of mind control. They obey the Catalyst. They obey AI!Shep. These are not the heretics, who freely chose their path. Killing them "because they deserve it" is misguided and wrong. We don't execute the mentally ill. The deserving one is the Catalyst, and I'm not sure it has a concept of punishment. If the Reapers can be freed, they ought to be. They should never have been created, but they are here now and Shepard should make their fate part of his calculus for the decision.

That would be insane. Freeing them would be chaos. It would be turning the asylum over to the inmates. Wipe the slate clean. Destroy the AI and Destroy all of them. That's my call on the whole thing.

[Ithurael]

Mass Effect 1 & 2 would disagree with you

Mass Effect 3 would, however, agree with you completely.

This is one of the main reasons that harbinger was mute. With the addition of the starkid, the reapers went from having their sinister unknowable personalities to just being mindless robots.

[BatmanTurian]

jtav wrote...

 In an easily missed conversation, Legion explains the Reapers are "uploaded and cojoined minds, each a nation." The people who were pulped to create the Reapers still exist in a twisted form, or at least their minds do. It is highly, highly improbable that every single Reaper would choose to continue the cycle because they are its victims. E.g. the Reaperization process imparts some form of mind control. They obey the Catalyst. They obey AI!Shep. These are not the heretics, who freely chose their path. Killing them "because they deserve it" is misguided and wrong. We don't execute the mentally ill. The deserving one is the Catalyst, and I'm not sure it has a concept of punishment. If the Reapers can be freed, they ought to be. They should never have been created, but they are here now and Shepard should make their fate part of his calculus for the decision.

I can't even take you seriously. That's your argument? The Reapers are innocent? So... they were just following orders? Yeah, that works out real well in war crimes trials.

[Reap_ii]

Ithurael wrote...

Mass Effect 1 & 2 would disagree with you

Mass Effect 3 would, however, agree with you completely.

This is one of the main reasons that harbinger was mute. With the addition of the starkid, the reapers went from having their sinister unknowable personalities to just being mindless robots.

regardless of which mass effect you agree or disagree with, it doesnt matter.  destroy frees them from something they were forced into.  they are abominations who didnt ask to be made into abominations.  innocent or not doesnt matter here.  the most humane option is to set them free by destroying them.

[C9316]

Let's take the example given to us in game. The catalyst basically compares the Reapers to a fire, when encountered by a fire you don't try to control it nor do you try to somehow merge yourself with it. You put the damn thing out before it, in a manner of speaking, puts you out, with that in mind shooting the tube is the only option.

[Kabooooom]

C9316 wrote...

Let's take the example given to us in game. The catalyst basically compares the Reapers to a fire, when encountered by a fire you don't try to control it nor do you try to somehow merge yourself with it. You put the damn thing out before it, in a manner of speaking, puts you out, with that in mind shooting the tube is the only option.

TIM would argue that if mankind never tried to control fire, they never would have left the caves.

[Unschuld]

This thread proves IT(?)

[Reorte]

CronoDragoon wrote...

In Synthesis yes, however before I think it more accurate to say that they are only limited insofar as their actions must either promote or be neutral towards the Catalyst's goals. They do not need to believe everything exactly as he does, evidenced by their extreme self-esteem compared to the Catalyst's borderline revulsion towards them.

If they weren't so happy with what they were doing they wouldn't be sounding so full of themselves about it. Everything suggests that they are happy and compliant with the Catalysts's goals. They may be slaves but if they are then they're willing slaves.

[BatmanTurian]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

They still need to answer for crimes. Given what they have racked up, destruction is the only way.

Obeying, taking orders, and being manipulated has never been an excuse.

Is it a crime to be forced to kill against your will?

yes. There is always a choice even if you don't make it.

[Ieldra]

BatmanTurian wrote...

jtav wrote...

 In an easily missed conversation, Legion explains the Reapers are "uploaded and cojoined minds, each a nation." The people who were pulped to create the Reapers still exist in a twisted form, or at least their minds do. It is highly, highly improbable that every single Reaper would choose to continue the cycle because they are its victims. E.g. the Reaperization process imparts some form of mind control. They obey the Catalyst. They obey AI!Shep. These are not the heretics, who freely chose their path. Killing them "because they deserve it" is misguided and wrong. We don't execute the mentally ill. The deserving one is the Catalyst, and I'm not sure it has a concept of punishment. If the Reapers can be freed, they ought to be. They should never have been created, but they are here now and Shepard should make their fate part of his calculus for the decision.

I can't even take you seriously. That's your argument? The Reapers are innocent? So... they were just following orders? Yeah, that works out real well in war crimes trials.

They weren't following orders, they were mind-controlled. If you're mind-controlled, you're not responsible for what you're doing, I'm saying this just in case the obvious has escaped you here.

I came to this conclusion a long time ago and made this thread about it, if you care for a more detailed explanation.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:17 .

[CronoDragoon]

BatmanTurian wrote...

yes. There is always a choice even if you don't make it.

Not in the case of the Reapers, since their wills are not autonomous. You are thinking about someone refusing to kill, but in this case they cannot choose to do that.

[Unschuld]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

Yes, they are innocent. But read what you wrote right here. They exist in a horrid, torturous state. The people that were used to make the Reapers did not wish it. It preserves the essence of their species but not the true species. I bet if you were to ask them, they would ask for a merciful death. And the mentally ill comparison is a false equivalency logical fallacy.

So, in light of that, Destroy is the most moral choice for me. Control subverts the Reapers further, in Synthesis they are still imprisoned within Reaper bodies - Destroy frees them.

All species go extinct with time, including our own. It is inevitable. It is the natural order of things. There comes a time when all of us have to fade from the universal stage. The Reapers are no different, and saving them - in my opinion - is naive and immoral.

Oh yeah, and then there's the Destroy "mercy" argument.

Simply put, it's silly moral-righteousness to assume what's best for someone. You cannot assume what's mercy for other people, you need to know from them.

For one, we don't even know if the old personalities are still alive and self-aware, or if it's all merely data stored within the Reaper. For two, it's too late to save them from the tragedy of being harvested now, so it's pointless to try to make up for it posthumously. For three, what if they don't want to die and are actually OK with living on in this state?

Again, if you want mercy, go Synthesis. If it's truly too horrible to live with, they can off themselves (it'll probably be no less horrific than how Destroy kills them). If not, they can live. But the key is choice.

Quite possibly the most lulzworthy statement from someone who chooses the option to perminently alter all life in  the entire galaxy against their will and without consent simply because the controller of the enemy they met 5 minutes ago says its the best option for peace.

Modifié par Unschuld, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:20 .

[Xellith]

The Reaper AI is made with the minds of the organics and synthetics that are harvested.

The Reapers themselves are abhorant.
The Minds stored within the reaper are innocent.

Does control allow those minds to be free? No. They are still under your will. Those minds will be slaves forever.  Hopefully those minds are really "dead" and have no perception of what is going on.  If they are each individual minds and each are aware of what is going on then that may be quite a hell.

Does synthesis allow those minds to be free? Possibly. Those minds may gain full control of the reaper they inhabit once the catalysts hold on them is released.  Maybe unsure.  Still its "better" than control.

Does destroy kill the reapers and allow those stored minds to rest in peace after possibly several billion years? You betcha.

Its often said that to be immortal is worse than death.

I choose to free them.

Modifié par Xellith, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:20 .

[Steelcan]

If the reapers are indeed just tools of the catalyst, then they are beyond hope. They have been indoctrinated and there is no turning back. If on the other hand they are as Sovereign, Harbinger, and the reaper on Rannoch, claim they are, magnitudes above us, pinnacle of blah blah blah etc..., then they cannot be trusted and need to be put down, with fire, and maybe explosions.

[Ieldra]

Xellith wrote...

The Reaper AI is made with the minds of the organics and synthetics that are harvested.

The Reapers themselves are abhorant.
The Minds stored within the reaper are innocent.

Does control allow those minds to be free? No. They are still under your will. Those minds will be slaves forever.

Does synthesis allow those minds to be free? Possibly. Those minds may gain full control of the reaper they inhabit once the catalysts hold on them is released.

Does destroy kill the reapers and allow those stored minds to rest in peace after possibly several billion years? You betcha.

Its often said that to be immortal is worse than death.

I choose to free them.

It is not for you to say if another's life is worth living. You're arguing forced euthanasia here, in case you haven't noticed. I find this kind of reasoning abhorrent.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:21 .

[Argolas]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Reapers are machines filled with corpses. Concepts like guilt do not apply to them. I destroyed the Anvil of the Void and I destroyed the Reapers. Good riddances.

Objection, the races in this cycle created an abomination of a power supply known as the "Crucible".
A device similar to that of the Anvil as it  can violate free will.

The crucible was constructed to be a weapon and I used it as such, regardless of what other functions it may have. I can't see any similarity to the anvil that dooms free souls, but I won't elaborate in order to keep this free of non-ME3 spoilers.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Barquiel wrote...
I had the impression they had different personalities (...and not exactly nice ones). But all three reapers were arrogant, in a god-complex way.

But we have no idea what led to them becoming that way. Remember how Legion says that the geth collectively become less intelligent and their perspective more narrow when geth subroutines are destroyed? The Catalyst may well have prohibited the Reapers from ever considering other possibilities on their own and programmed in this arrogant, self-righteous attitude towards other life forms. That doesn't mean that they *couldn't* grow beyond that if the Catalyst's restraints are removed.

I don't think we can assume that attitudes and personalities for AIs work the same way as they do for organics. It's possible that the "infrastructure" for alternate attitudes and personalities would exist within an AI, but they would never emerge due to programming constraints. EDI, for example, has that dialogue where she just announces that she's going to make herself more altruistic or something to that effect. Organics can't simply snap their fingers and change their attitudes (or have a programmer do it).

(And to the extent that the personalities and attitudes of the harvested species make a difference, Harbinger was apparently created from the Leviathans, so it's not too surprising that he's a bombastic jackass. )

[jtav]

Not following orders. Brainwashed. We treat such people differently.p And I reject in the strongest possible terms that Destroy frees them. If you can make them true moral agents again, you don't know what they would prefer. Simply assuming that they are not worthy of life because of what they are--rather than killing them in self-defense--is dangerous.

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not for you to say if another's life is worth living. You're arguing forced euthanasia here, in case you haven't noticed. I find this kind of reasoning abhorrent.

That depends. In my opinion the Reapers' opinion is irrelevant. It is a matter of whether the race from which they were born would have consented to living thus. If you Destroy the Reapers, you are saying the answer is no.

it's forced euthanasia in the same sense that killing vampires, evil or not, is forced euthanasia.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:23 .

[spotlessvoid]

Defending the Reapers? Are you serious? Say it out loud "The Reapers are innocent." If it's still making sense....there's nothing left to say.

[BatmanTurian]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

jtav wrote...

 In an easily missed conversation, Legion explains the Reapers are "uploaded and cojoined minds, each a nation." The people who were pulped to create the Reapers still exist in a twisted form, or at least their minds do. It is highly, highly improbable that every single Reaper would choose to continue the cycle because they are its victims. E.g. the Reaperization process imparts some form of mind control. They obey the Catalyst. They obey AI!Shep. These are not the heretics, who freely chose their path. Killing them "because they deserve it" is misguided and wrong. We don't execute the mentally ill. The deserving one is the Catalyst, and I'm not sure it has a concept of punishment. If the Reapers can be freed, they ought to be. They should never have been created, but they are here now and Shepard should make their fate part of his calculus for the decision.

I can't even take you seriously. That's your argument? The Reapers are innocent? So... they were just following orders? Yeah, that works out real well in war crimes trials.

They weren't following orders, they were mind-controlled. If you're mind-controlled, you're not responsible for what you're doing, I'm saying this just in case the obvious has escaped you here.

I came to this conclusion a long time ago and made this thread about it, if you care for a more detailed explanation.

Sorry, even if mind-controlled while killing, you are still guilty and should be put away for life or put down like a rabid dog. In fact, the fact that they ARE irreversibly mind-controlled impels the moral person to put them down like rabid dogs.

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

Not following orders. Brainwashed. We treat such people differently.p And I reject in the strongest possible terms that Destroy frees them. If you can make them true moral agents again, you don't know what they would prefer. Simply assuming that they are not worthy of life because of what they are--rather than killing them in self-defense--is dangerous.

.  This reminds me of the orcs in Lord of the Rings.  As a devout Catholic, Tolkien was conflicted about the nature of the orcs.  Are they able to be saved?  I would argue, no.  They have been corrupted from their original form, like the reapers, they no longer identify with their past form, like the reapers, and they are hell bent on destruction, like the reapers.  In the end the only choice was to destroy the ring and end it.

[BatmanTurian]

jtav wrote...

Not following orders. Brainwashed. We treat such people differently.p And I reject in the strongest possible terms that Destroy frees them. If you can make them true moral agents again, you don't know what they would prefer. Simply assuming that they are not worthy of life because of what they are--rather than killing them in self-defense--is dangerous.

Well, Germans under Hitler were brain-washed and many of them committed atrocities we shouldn't be able to imagine. So are they innocent too? Because the Warcrimes trial afterwards disagrees with you if you think so.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:32 .