985 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

If the reapers are indeed just tools of the catalyst, then they are beyond hope.

Not really.



It's simple. We kill the catalyst.

. Had that been an option I would have embraced it with open arms:)

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@ jtav, ieldra2: "Listen to yourselves! You're ... indoctrinated!" -- Admiral David Anderson

[BatmanTurian]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You are using a false equivalence argument, a strawman. So again, I ask you to try something else because it's not even the same.

I just explained how it is the same, so now you have to explain why it is not. Simply saying something is the case does not make it true.

No, the equivalent is the Germans in WWII killing Jews in concentration camps and the Japanese made to kamakazi against American troops, resisting surrender completely. The equivalent is Soviet Russia and Red China killing millions of their people simply because their ideology demanded it be done. Accidentally killing a girl after a another car hits mine does not even come close. You are terrible at this.

[FlyingSquirrel]

BatmanTurian wrote...
Sorry, even if mind-controlled while killing, you are still guilty and should be put away for life or put down like a rabid dog. In fact, the fact that they ARE irreversibly mind-controlled impels the moral person to put them down like rabid dogs.

I can see the argument for "put away" if it's truly irreversible, but not killed. In any case, I think what some of us are arguing re: the Reapers is that it's *not* irreversible.

[BatmanTurian]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Just because someone is forcing you to do something does not change the fact that you choose to do it and intended the effects that your action causes.

Legal systems disagree with you. The act of brainwashing itself removes the capability to choose: that is the entire point of brainwashing.

And yet Germans were tried for warcrimes even when they were " just following orders."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Congratulations, Bioware. You've made real live people, players of your games, believe that your antagonists are innocent angels. You are brainwashing geniuses. Bravo.
-snip-

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 You don't even need the context of Legion's dialogue. The ending makes it clear: they're under control.

I'm in no way saying Destroy is wrong or invalid. But for the many who see it as "it's them or us" after the catalyst scene (and now Leviathan) ... those people simply don't get it.

[Gewehr_fr]

Reapers are abominations made of people's blood and flesh; men, women and children that were tortured and turned into goo.

Innocent or not, they must be destroyed.

That's it.

[CronoDragoon]

BatmanTurian wrote...
No, the equivalent is the Germans in WWII killing Jews in concentration camps and the Japanese made to kamakazi against American troops, resisting surrender completely. The equivalent is Soviet Russia and Red China killing millions of their people simply because their ideology demanded it be done. Accidentally killing a girl after a another car hits mine does not even come close. You are terrible at this.

I am terrible at what? Understanding the basic principles by which society assigns guilt and punishment? Because I'm actually pretty excellent than that. I have a degree in that.

All those examples you quote the perpetrator's ability to choose was intact. In brainwashing, it is not. That is the entire concept of brainwashing. If brainwashed people could still choose, then nobody would try to brainwash because it does not work.

[BatmanTurian]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Sorry, even if mind-controlled while killing, you are still guilty and should be put away for life or put down like a rabid dog. In fact, the fact that they ARE irreversibly mind-controlled impels the moral person to put them down like rabid dogs.

I can see the argument for "put away" if it's truly irreversible, but not killed. In any case, I think what some of us are arguing re: the Reapers is that it's *not* irreversible.

So we are to enslave them ourselves or allow them to continue existing,  while they know they unwillingly contributed to the genocide of trillions of sapients instead?

[CronoDragoon]

BatmanTurian wrote...

And yet Germans were tried for warcrimes even when they were " just following orders."

Following orders and brainwashing are totally different concepts. You can choose to follow orders, you cannot choose to resist brainwashing. If you disagree then you do not understand what brainwashing is.

[BatmanTurian]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
No, the equivalent is the Germans in WWII killing Jews in concentration camps and the Japanese made to kamakazi against American troops, resisting surrender completely. The equivalent is Soviet Russia and Red China killing millions of their people simply because their ideology demanded it be done. Accidentally killing a girl after a another car hits mine does not even come close. You are terrible at this.

I am terrible at what? Understanding the basic principles by which society assigns guilt and punishment? Because I'm actually pretty excellent than that. I have a degree in that.

All those examples you quote the perpetrator's ability to choose was intact. In brainwashing, it is not. That is the entire concept of brainwashing. If brainwashed people could still choose, then nobody would try to brainwash because it does not work.

It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:01 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Steelcan wrote...

. Had that been an option I would have embraced it with open arms:)

It's safe to say he's gone, in any given ending. Only Synthesis is not entirely clear on this, but when the Citadel blows up and the Reapers are affected by the green beam... well, there's not a lot of room for interpretation.

[dreman9999]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Zombies are innocent too. But you're still going to kill them because they're an existential threat.

Best statement ever and appropriate..
Reapers are jus tmad dogs that need to be put down.

[Kabooooom]

So we are to enslave them ourselves or allow them to continue existing, while they know they unwillingly contributed to the genocide of trillions of sapients instead?

That's the argument some are making - if the Reapers want to commit suicide by letting themselves fly into a sun, so be it.

Except giving them that freedom comes at the cost of forcing synthesis on the galaxy. So what is more immoral? Forcing synthesis, or killing the Reapers? There is no definitive argument either way, that's the point, and anyone who thinks their opinion is more valid than others (you know who you are) is also missing the point.

For me, Destroy is the more moral choice. For ieldra and others, Synthesis is. But at least I recognize the moral relativism of the choice itself.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:02 .

[BatmanTurian]

Kabooooom wrote...

So we are to enslave them ourselves or allow them to continue existing, while they know they unwillingly contributed to the genocide of trillions of sapients instead?

That's the argument some are making - if the Reapers want to commit suicide by letting themselves fly into a sun, so be it.

Except giving them that freedom comes at the cost of forcing synthesis on the galaxy. So what is more immoral? Forcing synthesis, or killing the Reapers? There is no argument, that's the point, and anyone who thinks their opinion is more valid than others (you know who you are) is also missing the point.

For me, Destroy is the more moral choice. For ieldra and others, Synthesis is. But at least I recognize the moral relativism of the choice itself.

agreed.

[Xellith]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xellith wrote...

The Reaper AI is made with the minds of the organics and synthetics that are harvested.

The Reapers themselves are abhorant.
The Minds stored within the reaper are innocent.

Does control allow those minds to be free? No. They are still under your will. Those minds will be slaves forever.

Does synthesis allow those minds to be free? Possibly. Those minds may gain full control of the reaper they inhabit once the catalysts hold on them is released.

Does destroy kill the reapers and allow those stored minds to rest in peace after possibly several billion years? You betcha.

Its often said that to be immortal is worse than death.

I choose to free them.

It is not for you to say if another's life is worth living. You're arguing forced euthanasia here, in case you haven't noticed. I find this kind of reasoning abhorrent.

 Did those organics/synthetics resist becoming reapers?  So once they become reapers then they dont want to be killed anymore since they enjoy being reapers?

 Why dont you just choose refuse then?  If thats how you think it all went down for a few billion years.  If being a reaper is so wonderful.

Im in agreement with paragon shep with this.  The races inhabited within the reapers "died" x number of years ago.  Destroy allows them to rest in peace.

Modifié par Xellith, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:03 .

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Just because someone is forcing you to do something does not change the fact that you choose to do it and intended the effects that your action causes.

Legal systems disagree with you. The act of brainwashing itself removes the capability to choose: that is the entire point of brainwashing.

And yet Germans were tried for warcrimes even when they were " just following orders."

The reapers and catalyst are being with no will at all. The germans have awill of their own and was open to apose Hitler when ever they could. Heck, some german did apose Hitler.

[jtav]

Kabooooom wrote...

Killing them isn't an act of mercy. It's euthanasia, forced at that.

Euthanasia - greek "a good death" - definition:

The act of killing to relieve suffering, an act of mercy.


Not to troll or anything, but as someone who has actually had to make the decision to euthanize other living beings literally hundreds of times, it really annoys the hell out of me when people don't know what the definition of euthanasia is. Pet peeve.

I know exactly what euthanasia is. The killing of something that is in pain or otherwise suffering. And I am saying that that is wrong, doubly so when consent has not been granted.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Just because someone is forcing you to do something does not change the fact that you choose to do it and intended the effects that your action causes.

Legal systems disagree with you. The act of brainwashing itself removes the capability to choose: that is the entire point of brainwashing.

And yet Germans were tried for warcrimes even when they were " just following orders."

The reapers and catalyst are being with no will at all. The germans have awill of their own and was open to apose Hitler when ever they could. Heck, some german did apose Hitler.

I know this. I'm speaking of the Germans who chose to allow Hitler's ideology to consume them, not those who resisted obviously.

[Kabooooom]

jtav wrote...

I know exactly what euthanasia is. The killing of something that is in pain or otherwise suffering. And I am saying that that is wrong, doubly so when consent has not been granted.

As a veterinarian, I obviously disagree with you. And it would be quite easy for me to prove you wrong in that matter too, but I don't think you want this discussion to get too off track so I won't bother.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:05 .

[Steelcan]

The way I see it, the reapers are like rabid dogs no matter if they are indoctrinated by the Catalyst or acting on their own. Rabid dogs have to be put down.

[Xellith]

jtav wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

Killing them isn't an act of mercy. It's euthanasia, forced at that.

Euthanasia - greek "a good death" - definition:

The act of killing to relieve suffering, an act of mercy.


Not to troll or anything, but as someone who has actually had to make the decision to euthanize other living beings literally hundreds of times, it really annoys the hell out of me when people don't know what the definition of euthanasia is. Pet peeve.

I know exactly what euthanasia is. The killing of something that is in pain or otherwise suffering. And I am saying that that is wrong, doubly so when consent has not been granted.

So if I was dying a slow horrible death and you could euthanise me and I asked you to do it because I couldnt do it myself.. you wouldnt?  That right there makes you a horrible person.

Modifié par Xellith, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:06 .

[BatmanTurian]

jtav wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

Killing them isn't an act of mercy. It's euthanasia, forced at that.

Euthanasia - greek "a good death" - definition:

The act of killing to relieve suffering, an act of mercy.


Not to troll or anything, but as someone who has actually had to make the decision to euthanize other living beings literally hundreds of times, it really annoys the hell out of me when people don't know what the definition of euthanasia is. Pet peeve.

I know exactly what euthanasia is. The killing of something that is in pain or otherwise suffering. And I am saying that that is wrong, doubly so when consent has not been granted.

I am so glad I will probably never have to try to survive in a zombie apocolypse with you.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
No, the equivalent is the Germans in WWII killing Jews in concentration camps and the Japanese made to kamakazi against American troops, resisting surrender completely. The equivalent is Soviet Russia and Red China killing millions of their people simply because their ideology demanded it be done. Accidentally killing a girl after a another car hits mine does not even come close. You are terrible at this.

I am terrible at what? Understanding the basic principles by which society assigns guilt and punishment? Because I'm actually pretty excellent than that. I have a degree in that.

All those examples you quote the perpetrator's ability to choose was intact. In brainwashing, it is not. That is the entire concept of brainwashing. If brainwashed people could still choose, then nobody would try to brainwash because it does not work.

It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.

No. it was not the same way. The **** branwashed their youths like any parent with a strong beleif. The general populace just jumped on the bang wagon of hate. They choose to join in, not brainwashed in.
Hitler convinced people, not brain washed them.

[BatmanTurian]

Steelcan wrote...

The way I see it, the reapers are like rabid dogs no matter if they are indoctrinated by the Catalyst or acting on their own. Rabid dogs have to be put down.

Pretty much. Rabies even changes your mind, thereby making you violent and agressive. Indoctrination is like a virus that infects others. The analogy is apt.