985 réponses à ce sujet

[Bill Casey]

Stupid thread is stupid...
OP is indoctrinated...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:09 .

[Kabooooom]

No. it was not the same way. The **** branwashed their youths like any parent with a strong beleif. The general populace just jumped on the bang wagon of hate. They choose to join in, not brainwashed in.
Hitler convinced people, not brain washed them

Agreed. It is a historical testament to mob mentality and how easily human beings can commit atrocity, especially if their own well-being is threatened if they don't.

That's not brainwashing.It is something far, far more sad and pathetic.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:09 .

[ManiacG]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Congratulations, Bioware. You've made real live people, players of your games, believe that your antagonists are innocent angels. You are brainwashing geniuses. Bravo.
-snip-

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 You don't even need the context of Legion's dialogue. The ending makes it clear: they're under control.

I'm in no way saying Destroy is wrong or invalid. But for the many who see it as "it's them or us" after the catalyst scene (and now Leviathan) ... those people simply don't get it.

oh we get it, its simply doesent change anything, the reapers are killing of your entire race, you meet an unstable ai with a fetish for the star brat costume telling you what you should do.

as ive staed before the reapers may not act out of choice but they are completly amoral and so destructive they are an embodiment of pure evil, they need to be destroyed!

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Just because someone is forcing you to do something does not change the fact that you choose to do it and intended the effects that your action causes.

Legal systems disagree with you. The act of brainwashing itself removes the capability to choose: that is the entire point of brainwashing.

And yet Germans were tried for warcrimes even when they were " just following orders."

The reapers and catalyst are being with no will at all. The germans have awill of their own and was open to apose Hitler when ever they could. Heck, some german did apose Hitler.

I know this. I'm speaking of the Germans who chose to allow Hitler's ideology to consume them, not those who resisted obviously.

But that not brain washing. That just them letting Hitlers point convince them. That is no different them how other leaders jet people to follow them.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
No, the equivalent is the Germans in WWII killing Jews in concentration camps and the Japanese made to kamakazi against American troops, resisting surrender completely. The equivalent is Soviet Russia and Red China killing millions of their people simply because their ideology demanded it be done. Accidentally killing a girl after a another car hits mine does not even come close. You are terrible at this.

I am terrible at what? Understanding the basic principles by which society assigns guilt and punishment? Because I'm actually pretty excellent than that. I have a degree in that.

All those examples you quote the perpetrator's ability to choose was intact. In brainwashing, it is not. That is the entire concept of brainwashing. If brainwashed people could still choose, then nobody would try to brainwash because it does not work.

It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.

No. it was not the same way. The **** branwashed their youths like any parent with a strong beleif. The general populace just jumped on the bang wagon of hate. They choose to join in, not brainwashed in.
Hitler convinced people, not brain washed them.

There is no difference between convincing and brainwashing. Please, I'm not attacking the German people here. I understand it's a sensitive topic. But history is history and those who were deeply entrenched in that ideology were brainwashed.

[dreman9999]

Bill Casey wrote...

Stupid thread is stupid...
OP is indoctrinated...

Op has a point. The reapers and the catalyst are not inheritly evil.
They still need to be put down like the mad dogs they are, but they are not evil.

[Wayning_Star]

The story doesn't say what the reapers are for sure. The story doesn't say what the contents of the reapers are other than stored DNA and some sort of intellect collection. The story doesn't say why those were stored in reaper hulls or IF they can even be releasted. It's the concept of 'any chance' is better than no chance/hope. Shep seems to believe that without freedom, there is NO hope and the races cannot advance. Are organics no more than machines?

What we DO know is that the catalyst apparently stores harvests into the reapers for some purpose. Anyone got any idea what that might be? The story doesn't elude to it so much...only that it believes that it is saving lives via the harvest. The intent being wrought from the experience of some unseen wars between organic life forms and synthetic life forms where it didn't work out well for organic life forms and they were exterminated? So... the catalyst harvests and then stores those so called 'saved lives' within the reaper hulls for future reference? Time, apparently, will tell.... maybe?

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Just because someone is forcing you to do something does not change the fact that you choose to do it and intended the effects that your action causes.

Legal systems disagree with you. The act of brainwashing itself removes the capability to choose: that is the entire point of brainwashing.

And yet Germans were tried for warcrimes even when they were " just following orders."

The reapers and catalyst are being with no will at all. The germans have awill of their own and was open to apose Hitler when ever they could. Heck, some german did apose Hitler.

I know this. I'm speaking of the Germans who chose to allow Hitler's ideology to consume them, not those who resisted obviously.

But that not brain washing. That just them letting Hitlers point convince them. That is no different them how other leaders jet people to follow them.

Dreman *face palm* come on. People believed in an ideology where germans and specifically Aryan people were superior and all others were inferior and Jews were the source of their problems and so they had to be treated like inferior beings. No sane person would have believed this.Only a true believer, brainwashed into it by speeches and propaganda, would believe this.

[Steelcan]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The way I see it, the reapers are like rabid dogs no matter if they are indoctrinated by the Catalyst or acting on their own. Rabid dogs have to be put down.

Pretty much. Rabies even changes your mind, thereby making you violent and agressive. Indoctrination is like a virus that infects others. The analogy is apt.

That was where I first got the comparison;)

[Kabooooom]

There is no difference between convincing and brainwashing. Please, I'm not attacking the German people here. I understand it's a sensitive topic. But history is history and those who were deeply entrenched in that ideology were brainwashed.

I will point out that there is a difference between people jumping on a bandwagon and brainwashing, but I will agree that propaganda can be recognized as a form of attempted brainwashing in that it is a systematic method of deliberate coercion to change the way an individual thinks.

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
No, the equivalent is the Germans in WWII killing Jews in concentration camps and the Japanese made to kamakazi against American troops, resisting surrender completely. The equivalent is Soviet Russia and Red China killing millions of their people simply because their ideology demanded it be done. Accidentally killing a girl after a another car hits mine does not even come close. You are terrible at this.

I am terrible at what? Understanding the basic principles by which society assigns guilt and punishment? Because I'm actually pretty excellent than that. I have a degree in that.

All those examples you quote the perpetrator's ability to choose was intact. In brainwashing, it is not. That is the entire concept of brainwashing. If brainwashed people could still choose, then nobody would try to brainwash because it does not work.

It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.

No. it was not the same way. The **** branwashed their youths like any parent with a strong beleif. The general populace just jumped on the bang wagon of hate. They choose to join in, not brainwashed in.
Hitler convinced people, not brain washed them.

There is no difference between convincing and brainwashing. Please, I'm not attacking the German people here. I understand it's a sensitive topic. But history is history and those who were deeply entrenched in that ideology were brainwashed.

Yes, there is a difference between convining and brainwashing. A damaticly exteme difference. History clearly shows that the german people were convince into the war, not brain washed. Understand what brain washing is before saying what it is. Convincing someone to do something is not brainwashing.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Stupid thread is stupid...
OP is indoctrinated...

Op has a point. The reapers and the catalyst are not inheritly evil.
They still need to be put down like the mad dogs they are, but they are not evil.

No, OP does not have a point. The Reapers were NEVER innocent. Whole ocean planets of blood run down their tenticles. What they were as organics is not what they are now just as a zombie in The Walking Dead is not the person they once were. They have been changed.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:15 .

[Xilizhra]

And that's fine, but you are choosing it at the cost of the free will of every organic being in the galaxy to choose their fate. You have arbitrarily placed more value on the lives of the Reapers than that. That's totally fine, and what bioware intended by making the endings controversial. But if you missed that point then you missed the point of the endings entirely.

I'm choosing their lives over the risk of potentially losing free will, if my Shepard-Catalyst goes bad. But I don't RP it as doing so, so it won't.

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

And that's fine, but you are choosing it at the cost of the free will of every organic being in the galaxy to choose their fate. You have arbitrarily placed more value on the lives of the Reapers than that. That's totally fine, and what bioware intended by making the endings controversial. But if you missed that point then you missed the point of the endings entirely.

I'm choosing their lives over the risk of potentially losing free will, if my Shepard-Catalyst goes bad. But I don't RP it as doing so, so it won't.

You are enslaving trillions. Your choice is still morally gray.

[Steelcan]

Kabooooom wrote...

There is no difference between convincing and brainwashing. Please, I'm not attacking the German people here. I understand it's a sensitive topic. But history is history and those who were deeply entrenched in that ideology were brainwashed.

I will point out that there is a difference between people jumping on a bandwagon and brainwashing, but I will agree that propaganda can be recognized as a form of attempted brainwashing in that it is a systematic method of deliberate coercion to change the way an individual thinks.

You dont get he kind of things that have happend in History just through jumping on the bandwagon.

[BatmanTurian]

Kabooooom wrote...

There is no difference between convincing and brainwashing. Please, I'm not attacking the German people here. I understand it's a sensitive topic. But history is history and those who were deeply entrenched in that ideology were brainwashed.

I will point out that there is a difference between people jumping on a bandwagon and brainwashing, but I will agree that propaganda can be recognized as a form of attempted brainwashing in that it is a systematic method of deliberate coercion to change the way an individual thinks.

This is what I'm trying to say. Religious extremists are similar.

[dreman9999]

Kabooooom wrote...

There is no difference between convincing and brainwashing. Please, I'm not attacking the German people here. I understand it's a sensitive topic. But history is history and those who were deeply entrenched in that ideology were brainwashed.

I will point out that there is a difference between people jumping on a bandwagon and brainwashing, but I will agree that propaganda can be recognized as a form of attempted brainwashing in that it is a systematic method of deliberate coercion to change the way an individual thinks.

Propagranda to be issued as brain washing we would need to take consideration of how long it's use.
Short term it can only be viewed as miss information as a mean of control. Long term it canbe seen as a form of brain washing.
Hitlers ragin was not long enough to have any major brain washing attempts via propagana out side of the youths of germany.

The adults of germany is a different story.

[Kabooooom]

I'm choosing their lives over the risk of potentially losing free will, if my Shepard-Catalyst goes bad. But I don't RP it as doing so, so it won't.

You misunderstood me, like ieldra did. Perhaps I worded that paragraph incorrectly, so I will explain in a different way:

In Synthesis, people retain their free-will. That is obvious. In Control, Shep appears to retain his free-will as well. But I will only address synthesis here. What you are taking away from them is their freedom to CHOOSE synthesis in the first place. Presumably, in both Control and Destroy, Synthesis will eventually happen as people will choose it. But in Synthesis, they do not choose, it is forced upon them.

That act has questionable morality. Just like destroying the Reapers does. Just like controlling them does. You are choosing to spare the Reapers while simultaneously performing an act which is immoral. It's the same way in every single ending.

So, I will say again - it is totally pointless to try to justify one over another. All you can do is say, "in my opinion, I subjectively assign greater moral value to this choice over others".

This is what I'm trying to say. Religious extremists are similar.

Religious extremists are identical, I'd say.

You don't get the kind of things that have happened in history just by jumping on the bandwagon

Yes, you do. And I think you misunderstand human nature if you think that is not the case.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:20 .

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

There is no difference between convincing and brainwashing. Please, I'm not attacking the German people here. I understand it's a sensitive topic. But history is history and those who were deeply entrenched in that ideology were brainwashed.

I will point out that there is a difference between people jumping on a bandwagon and brainwashing, but I will agree that propaganda can be recognized as a form of attempted brainwashing in that it is a systematic method of deliberate coercion to change the way an individual thinks.

This is what I'm trying to say. Religious extremists are similar.

Your missing the fact you have to consider the state of mind of the people in the situation.

[Steelcan]

Kabooooom wrote...

I'm choosing their lives over the risk of potentially losing free will, if my Shepard-Catalyst goes bad. But I don't RP it as doing so, so it won't.

You misunderstood me, like ieldra did. Perhaps I worded that paragraph incorrectly, so I will explain in a different way:

In Synthesis, people retain their free-will. That is obvious. In Control, Shep appears to retain his free-will as well. But I will only address synthesis here. What you are taking away from them is their freedom to CHOOSE synthesis in the first place. Presumably, in both Control and Destroy, Synthesis will eventually happen as people will choose it. But in Synthesis, they do not choose, it is forced upon them.

That act has questionable morality. Just like destroying the Reapers does. Just like controlling them does. You are choosing to spare the Reapers while simultaneously performing an act which is immoral. It's the same way in every single ending.

So, I will say again - it is totally pointless to try to justify one over another. All you can do is say, "in my opinion, I subjectively assign greater moral value to this choice over others".

 Wreav begs to differ.  He doesn't raise an army in synthesis.  He has changed from his forer self, admittedly its a good thing, but he is still different

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
No, the equivalent is the Germans in WWII killing Jews in concentration camps and the Japanese made to kamakazi against American troops, resisting surrender completely. The equivalent is Soviet Russia and Red China killing millions of their people simply because their ideology demanded it be done. Accidentally killing a girl after a another car hits mine does not even come close. You are terrible at this.

I am terrible at what? Understanding the basic principles by which society assigns guilt and punishment? Because I'm actually pretty excellent than that. I have a degree in that.

All those examples you quote the perpetrator's ability to choose was intact. In brainwashing, it is not. That is the entire concept of brainwashing. If brainwashed people could still choose, then nobody would try to brainwash because it does not work.

It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.

No. it was not the same way. The **** branwashed their youths like any parent with a strong beleif. The general populace just jumped on the bang wagon of hate. They choose to join in, not brainwashed in.
Hitler convinced people, not brain washed them.

There is no difference between convincing and brainwashing. Please, I'm not attacking the German people here. I understand it's a sensitive topic. But history is history and those who were deeply entrenched in that ideology were brainwashed.

Yes, there is a difference between convining and brainwashing. A damaticly exteme difference. History clearly shows that the german people were convince into the war, not brain washed. Understand what brain washing is before saying what it is. Convincing someone to do something is not brainwashing.

You're white-washing history. There are people who left and resisted but the majority did not. They were inundated by propaganda and forced by a facist police state to submit. They were broken down by the WWI armistice treaty that destroyed their government and then built back up by Hitler's party. That is brainwashing 101.

[Argolas]

dreman9999 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Stupid thread is stupid...
OP is indoctrinated...

Op has a point. The reapers and the catalyst are not inheritly evil.
They still need to be put down like the mad dogs they are, but they are not evil.

Not evil maybe, but not worthy life either. The reapers fit in no definition of life that I am aware of.

Do Geth have a soul? Maybe, but at least they show the ability to talk, interact, make decisions, they even have morality. That makes them at least candidates for being considered alive.

Reapers are different. If they truly are innocent, reapers are mere tools. They just fulfill the "purpose" that mad Leviathan AI gave them. Someone always controls them, may it be "catalyst" , Holoshep or the Leviathans.

So either they are guilty and can't be trusted, or they are innocent but dangerous tools that can be destroyed without moral issues. Either way is fine with me.

[lolerk53]

Listen to yourself!
You're Indoctrinated!

[FlyingSquirrel]

BatmanTurian wrote...
It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.

I think that's a loose definition of brainwashing. (And I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that Hitler eventually came up in this thread. ) Again, organic and synthetic minds are different. With an organic, there isn't a programmer that can just rearrange someone's neural pathways to force them to do something or to limit their perspective so severely that they can't conceive of an alternative. With synthetics, something like this does seem to happen to the geth when some of their code/subroutines/whatever are wiped out - Legion says that the decision to ally with the Reapers came after their perspective had been narrowed. And EDI basically just announces at some point, IIRC, that she's going to reprogram herself to be more altruistic.

And for that matter, a lot of ordinary German citizens who likely enabled or acquiesced in Hitler's regime, and who had been subject to a considerable amount of coercion and propaganda, probably *were* let off the hook, and even they probably still had more free will than the Reapers seem to have.

EDIT: Apparently the short form of "National Socialist" is word-filtered.

Modifié par FlyingSquirrel, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:25 .

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

There is no difference between convincing and brainwashing. Please, I'm not attacking the German people here. I understand it's a sensitive topic. But history is history and those who were deeply entrenched in that ideology were brainwashed.

I will point out that there is a difference between people jumping on a bandwagon and brainwashing, but I will agree that propaganda can be recognized as a form of attempted brainwashing in that it is a systematic method of deliberate coercion to change the way an individual thinks.

This is what I'm trying to say. Religious extremists are similar.

Your missing the fact you have to consider the state of mind of the people in the situation.

State of mind is exactly the point. The Germans were downtrodden, then came a guy promising great things and blaming an entire race for their problems and they went with it. They were torn down then hitler built them up.