Wreav begs to differ. He doesn't raise an army in synthesis. He has changed from his forer self, admittedly its a good thing, but he is still different
How do you know? I remeber mission with the geth that we could use a virus to manipulate the minds of the heritics with out them knowing and they would act completly normal reguardless.Kabooooom wrote...
I'm choosing their lives over the risk of potentially losing free will, if my Shepard-Catalyst goes bad. But I don't RP it as doing so, so it won't.
In Synthesis, people retain their free-will. That is obvious. .
BatmanTurian wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Yes, there is a difference between convining and brainwashing. A damaticly exteme difference. History clearly shows that the german people were convince into the war, not brain washed. Understand what brain washing is before saying what it is. Convincing someone to do something is not brainwashing.BatmanTurian wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
No. it was not the same way. The **** branwashed their youths like any parent with a strong beleif. The general populace just jumped on the bang wagon of hate. They choose to join in, not brainwashed in.BatmanTurian wrote...
CronoDragoon wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
No, the equivalent is the Germans in WWII killing Jews in concentration camps and the Japanese made to kamakazi against American troops, resisting surrender completely. The equivalent is Soviet Russia and Red China killing millions of their people simply because their ideology demanded it be done. Accidentally killing a girl after a another car hits mine does not even come close. You are terrible at this.
I am terrible at what? Understanding the basic principles by which society assigns guilt and punishment? Because I'm actually pretty excellent than that. I have a degree in that.
All those examples you quote the perpetrator's ability to choose was intact. In brainwashing, it is not. That is the entire concept of brainwashing. If brainwashed people could still choose, then nobody would try to brainwash because it does not work.
It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.
Hitler convinced people, not brain washed them.
There is no difference between convincing and brainwashing. Please, I'm not attacking the German people here. I understand it's a sensitive topic. But history is history and those who were deeply entrenched in that ideology were brainwashed.
You're white-washing history. There are people who left and resisted but the majority did not. They were inundated by propaganda and forced by a facist police state to submit. They were broken down by the WWI armistice treaty that destroyed their government and then built back up by Hitler's party. That is brainwashing 101.
Modifié par Xellith, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:25 .
How do you know? I remeber mission with the geth that we could use a virus to manipulate the minds of the heritics with out them knowing and they would act completly normal reguardless.
Do you trust the catalyst that much for It to not do that with organics in synthesis?
FlyingSquirrel wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.
I think that's a loose definition of brainwashing. (And I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that the ****s eventually came up in this thread.) Again, organic and synthetic minds are different. With an organic, there isn't a programmer that can just rearrange someone's neural pathways to force them to do something or to limit their perspective so severely that they can't conceive of an alternative. With synthetics, something like this does seem to happen to the geth when some of their code/subroutines/whatever are wiped out - Legion says that the decision to ally with the Reapers came after their perspective had been narrowed. And EDI basically just announces at some point, IIRC, that she's going to reprogram herself to be more altruistic.
And for that matter, a lot of ordinary German citizens who likely enabled or acquiesced in the **** regime, and who had been subject to a considerable amount of coercion and propaganda, probably *were* let off the hook, and even they probably still had more free will than the Reapers seem to have.
No, you're right.Xellith wrote...
Didnt Germany invade Poland in order to reclaim territories that were taken buring the WW1 armistice treaty? Lands that were meant to be returned? Lands which have yet to be returned >.> Also wernt the poles killing german people in those territories also? Or is my history wrong? (Correct if wrong)
And you missed my point. My point was that Wreav has been altered by synthesis. His personality has been changed, he is not the same as he was before.Kabooooom wrote...
Wreav begs to differ. He doesn't raise an army in synthesis. He has changed from his forer self, admittedly its a good thing, but he is still different
Wreav begs to differ with what? If you think I was saying Synthesis was morally questionable because people could "raise armies", then you missed what I was saying entirely.
Kabooooom wrote...
How do you know? I remeber mission with the geth that we could use a virus to manipulate the minds of the heritics with out them knowing and they would act completly normal reguardless.
Because Bioware wanted a forced happy ending despite the logic in your argument, which I also agree with. They weren't going for a dystopia. They were going for a utopia, no matter how absurd that actually is.Do you trust the catalyst that much for It to not do that with organics in synthesis?
No. That's why I kill the bastard and the Reapers with him.
FlyingSquirrel wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
It is brainwashing. Hitler's Germany was full of brainwashed people. Even the leaders were brainwashed. Soviet russia and red china brainwashed their people (China still brainwashes their people) and their leaders were and are brainwashed. You just don't get it and that is why you fail at this argument.
I think that's a loose definition of brainwashing. (And I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that Hitler eventually came up in this thread.
FlyingSquirrel wrote...
EDIT: Apparently the short form of "National Socialist" is word-filtered.
The issue here is something brought up in ME2. The heritic geth mission where we could manipulate their minds. It was just like indoctrination, which when applied no one would notice the effects.Kabooooom wrote...
Wreav begs to differ. He doesn't raise an army in synthesis. He has changed from his forer self, admittedly its a good thing, but he is still different
Wreav begs to differ with what? If you think I was saying Synthesis was morally questionable because people could "raise armies", then you missed what I was saying entirely.
And you missed my point. My point was that Wreav has been altered by synthesis. His personality has been changed, he is not the same as he was before.
actually, you cannot really "kill" the catalyst, it's a program, it can
restore it's self if destroyed, eventhough claims to be destroyed, it
would NOT permit its destruction, against programming. The reapers just
rebuild themselves at some future, as they have over billions of years.
Apparently the catalyst isn't the liar the organics claim, to justify
it's faux destruction. Destroyers are indoctrinated.. apparently.
Modifié par Kabooooom, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:30 .
Steelcan wrote...
And you missed my point. My point was that Wreav has been altered by synthesis. His personality has been changed, he is not the same as he was before.Kabooooom wrote...
Wreav begs to differ. He doesn't raise an army in synthesis. He has changed from his forer self, admittedly its a good thing, but he is still different
Wreav begs to differ with what? If you think I was saying Synthesis was morally questionable because people could "raise armies", then you missed what I was saying entirely.
How would that be a dystopia? And can't the catalyst just make everyone be happy via indindoctination?Kabooooom wrote...
How do you know? I remeber mission with the geth that we could use a virus to manipulate the minds of the heritics with out them knowing and they would act completly normal reguardless.
Because Bioware wanted a forced happy ending despite the logic in your argument, which I also agree with. They weren't going for a dystopia. They were going for a utopia, no matter how absurd that actually is.Do you trust the catalyst that much for It to not do that with organics in synthesis?
No. That's why I kill the bastard and the Reapers with him.
Well what we got here is a failure to communicateKabooooom wrote...
And you missed my point. My point was that Wreav has been altered by synthesis. His personality has been changed, he is not the same as he was before.
....right, which is why forcing Synthesis upon him is morally questionable. Which was my point. Do we actually agree, or mutually misunderstand each other?
I'm sorry no. You're being too paranoid.Wayning_Star wrote...
Kabooooom wrote...
How do you know? I remeber mission with the geth that we could use a virus to manipulate the minds of the heritics with out them knowing and they would act completly normal reguardless.
Because Bioware wanted a forced happy ending despite the logic in your argument, which I also agree with. They weren't going for a dystopia. They were going for a utopia, no matter how absurd that actually is.Do you trust the catalyst that much for It to not do that with organics in synthesis?
No. That's why I kill the bastard and the Reapers with him.
actually, you cannot really "kill" the catalyst, it's a program, it can restore it's self if destroyed, eventhough claims to be destroyed, it would NOT permit its destruction, against programming. The reapers just rebuild themselves at some future, as they have over billions of years. Apparently the catalyst isn't the liar the organics claim, to justify it's faux destruction. Destroyers are indoctrinated.. apparently.
How would that be a dystopia? And can't the catalyst just make everyone be happy via indindoctination?
It"s entire goal was to control all life to protect it.
Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:33 .
No, the Catalyst was designed to preserve organic and synthetic life. The Leviathans are the ones who wanted to use him to control the others, which led to Catalyst calculating that they were part of the problem and must be harvested in order to bring order to the chaos.dreman9999 wrote...
How would that be a dystopia? And can't the catalyst just make everyone be happy via indindoctination?
It"s entire goal was to control all life to protect it.
THIS MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. Isn't it kind of suspicious that every harvested species just complies with the Catalyst's demands?
Modifié par Kabooooom, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:35 .
No...http://dictionary.re...browse/dystopiaKabooooom wrote...
How would that be a dystopia? And can't the catalyst just make everyone be happy via indindoctination?
It"s entire goal was to control all life to protect it.
A utopia that arises because of forced indoctrination is a dystopia.
It is a sci-fi trope. Often utopias on the surface are not the utopias that they seem. But, unfortunately Bioware was not that clever. They seemed to be going for the Synthesis is really a utopia type thing, and then slightly retconned that with the extended cut since presumably there could still be war in the synthesis ending.
Kabooooom wrote...
THIS MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. Isn't it kind of suspicious that every harvested species just complies with the Catalyst's demands?
The argument isn't whether or not the Reapers are under control. Pretty much everyone that actually paid attention to the story agrees with that.
The argument is about the morality of killing them despite that fact.
Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:38 .
CosmicGnosis wrote...
This thread is incredible. Simply incredible. I'm somewhat speechless.
There are so many asinine arguments in this thread. I completely agree with jtav and Ieldra. The story makes it very clear that the Catalyst is controlling the minds of the Reapers.
THIS MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. Isn't it kind of suspicious that every harvested species just complies with the Catalyst's demands?
I swear, it seems that some of you are physically incapable of considering alternative points of view.
Retour en haut