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[skotie]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

She isn't dumb, but because of her upbringing, she fails to grasp that accomplishing seemingly unrelated goals is actually more practical and helpful in the long run, and that instant solutions simply are not plausible. In the wilds, if you wanted something, you simply went and took it. That's how animals live, and Morrigan really had no other examples to go by. Natural law simply doesn't function the same in civilization.

It can get quite annoying, the constant ****ing, but Morrigan isn't an idiot. She is simply ignorant of the bigger picture, and doing things the hard way, or attacking your enemy obliquely, can achieve better results than simply charging head on.

Thats what makes her incrediably stupid though. She has had an upbringing of really only knowing 1 person, her mother, she was not oblivious that other people do exist but she didn't have any interaction with them. Her main  flaw is indeed arrogance, if she were more open and willing to listen to others veiws she would not be half as bad as she is, but she WON'T.

The one thing I cannot stand about her character is both her love and hate for the only person to influence her veiws, her mother. She has you kill her after she finds out she is going to use Morrigans body for her own. You find out Flemeth only taught her to be the way Morrigan is so it would be easier for Flemeth to take her body!

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY O WHY does this damn women continue to listen and live by these messed up views on life!!! Just because you had parents that shaped your veiws does not mean they need to be your only veiws on the world. One would think that trying to kill their own daughter would be enough for someone to learn hey maybe being a complete b**** to everyone I meet and to not giving a **** about anyone but myself is a bad outlook to have on life seeing as the person who taught me this also tried to kill me and eat my soul! Yes I understand the only person you thought you knew betrayed you! Guess what not everyone is like Flemeth!!

But no Morrigan the Ignorant marches on!!! I gaurentee she becomes a body snatcher herself in DAO2!

Modifié par skotie, 01 janvier 2010 - 01:45 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sabriana wrote...

Indeed, but she doesn't learn. She also doesn't accept any view unless is correlates with hers.
Now, my mage hated being a prisoner in the tower, always watched, leashed by her blood. She never had a choice, once her magic became obvious, she was imprisoned, hated and feared by the chantry and the templars. She had no easy life, at least Morrigan had glimpses of freedom.
My mage also knows that many if not most of the other mages also feel constricted and imprisoned as well as mistreated. They were her only companions through childhood and adolesence, she will definitely not further their doom in any way, shape or form.
Jowan's story more or less confirmed this, just ask him about his family. Poor guy, what a bummer. And then the only prospect for him is to become a robot, or dead. Yes, he's a blood mage, but my PC doesn't know that until the end of his and Lily's quest.
Aside from that, in my opinion, using a mage's phylactery against her/him is blood magic. That's debatable and depends on a personal pov, but I think it is.
My mage knows far better than Morrigan what's going on, so her experiences are to be taken into account. Morrigan could've easily ended up in the circle as well, and I would like to see her start a revolt. The mages in the tower, with all their powers of magic still would get their butts handed to them.
It is said that the First Enchanter governs the mages, but I wouldn't like to see what would happen to him/her and all the mages if they tried to push something through that doesn't meet Chantry/Templar approval. That Rite of Annulment would be there in no time. So in my opinion, Morrigan is all wet, and shows great immaturity in regards to the circle.

We are in 100% agreement here. My mage had the exact same feelings, exact same actions. And before the tower, basically said as much through dialogues with Morrigan. But Morrigan doesn't get this, because in her experience, you bite the hand that leashes you and kill, threaten, or manipulate those who oppose or threaten you, and she still doesn't get that the mages really had no choice.

Empathy is a skill that Morrigan lacks, and shows no desire to possess, because she sees it as a weakness.

Strangely, my mage became bestest homegirls with Morrigan while she was neutral towards Wynne.  Part of that due to a mutual loathing of the Chantry.

But yes, the more you try to explain things to Morrigan, the more she holds hard to her own limited world view. It can be frustrating, to say the least.

[Yrkoon]

Sabriana wrote...

Indeed, but she doesn't learn. She also doesn't accept any view unless is correlates with hers.
Now, my mage hated being a prisoner in the tower, always watched, leashed by her blood. She never had a choice, once her magic became obvious, she was imprisoned, hated and feared by the chantry and the templars. She had no easy life, at least Morrigan had glimpses of freedom.
My mage also knows that many if not most of the other mages also feel constricted and imprisoned as well as mistreated. They were her only companions through childhood and adolesence, she will definitely not further their doom in any way, shape or form.
Jowan's story more or less confirmed this, just ask him about his family. Poor guy, what a bummer. And then the only prospect for him is to become a robot, or dead. Yes, he's a blood mage, but my PC doesn't know that until the end of his and Lily's quest.
Aside from that, in my opinion, using a mage's phylactery against her/him is blood magic. That's debatable and depends on a personal pov, but I think it is.
My mage knows far better than Morrigan what's going on, so her experiences are to be taken into account. Morrigan could've easily ended up in the circle as well, and I would like to see her start a revolt. The mages in the tower, with all their powers of magic still would get their butts handed to them.

Morrigan  would not start a  revolt.  She'd strike out on her own.  She'd kill the door-guard templars then escape... and to hell with the weaklings waiting for the so-called "strength-in-numbers" to save them from their imprisonment.    More on this below...

It is said that the First Enchanter governs the mages, but I wouldn't like to see what would happen to him/her and all the mages if they tried to push something through that doesn't meet Chantry/Templar approval. That Rite of Annulment would be there in no time. So in my opinion, Morrigan is all wet, and shows great immaturity in regards to the circle.

Strange definition of "Immaturity" you have here:   You're  immature If you believe the blame lies upon  the lazy coward,  who refuses to carve his own path.

Right.

Perhaps  Morrigan  *knows*, like you do,  how utterly fruitless it is to band together as a group  against an unstoppable system  like the Chantry+templars via some rebellion that WILL fail horribly,  and so  the best solution is to free yourself instead?  Maybe?

Because that's the bottom line belief of hers:  Everyone has free will,   Only a WEAKLING sits back and waits for some big group of like-minded individuals to help him achieve his freedom.

As for "refusing to accept anyone's views but her own'...    Lets be honest, she's not really given much to work with in this game.  She's surrounded by  Brainwashed religious/nobility  types... the  same people who are PART of the very system that you claim your mage opposes...  How in the  world do you expect  an intelligent free spirit  like Morrigan to agree with the views of  a Bigotted Templar  (alistair)   who calls her  a melificar/apostate before he ever gets to know her....  or  an old woman  who happens to be  senior member of the friggin Circle  (Wynne).  Or an idealogue Bard  (Leliana) who thinks the stars in the sky are really the tears of some pricess mourning over a lost love.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 janvier 2010 - 03:09 .

[Vansen Elamber]

Morrigan has a lot of trouble seeing the big picture, she can not see how helping people will be worth the time of you and your companions. She fails to see that if you don't help save Redcliffe, that there will be no landsmeet, no chance of defeating Logain, no chance of gaining enough support for the wardens to defeat the Blight.

Morrigan's biggest fault is her tunnel vision when it comes to the big picture....simple as that. Just give her a few gifts and she will be fine with it, in fact you might even get to take her to your tent....

Modifié par Vansen Elamber, 01 janvier 2010 - 03:15 .

[SinYang]

Morrigan is right all along, you dont need one army to slay the Archdemon... think about it. You dont even need to die either with her ritual... no doubt shes most intelligent npc in the game.

[tmp7704]

Ethan009 wrote...

The only thing I hate about her is that if you're honest (which she claims she WANTS you to be) you get like -16 and other huge disapproval.

So, you hate her simply because she disagrees with your views? Funnily enough her -16 and the like are just her way of expressing the very same reaction, and she's also honest about it...

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 janvier 2010 - 03:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Basically, people are saying that whoever disagrees with them is stupid. Take dog if you don't want anyone to argue with you.

Both Morrigan and Sten have a point. Saving redcliff village is not that important. It's the castle you need. And even the Arl, you do not really need, but it's Alistair suggesting it. So trying to search for the urn in the hopes that simple ashes of a dead woman are going to cure him are an epic waste of time if it turned out to be a myth. We just got lucky that it was true.
As for the mages, she also has a point. The mages willingly submitted to the chantry and the Templars, they should assume the consequences. And you can still convince her that saving the mages is a good idea.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2010 - 04:08 .

[just.a.dude]

Morrigan's got babyfever. The sooner the archdemon dies, the less she is at risk. That is why she leaves when you refuse her offer.



Until the offer I was like wtf and stopped taking her, but when she made that offer the other shoe dropped and things became clearer.

[Medhia Nox]

I find it interesting.. I live in a country that is largely becoming defined by it's citizens various psychosis. People are "victims" of their environment - crying about chemical imbalances, bad mommys and daddys, not getting that pony they wanted.



Is Morrigan really any different?



Also, she spent a lot of time as an animal. Plus.. she believes that survival is some all encompassing necessity. Add this to the fact that (and very important) she does not even want to be travelling with you.. and I think she makes a lot of sense.



That being said.. she's selfish, nasty, and "evil". But I find her honest and unapologetic for her personality.. she's not interested in what the main character thinks. She doesn't give a crap about touchy feely time.. doesn't want to "talk about it".



I always turn her down.. but I wasn't shocked by anything she did. She was consistent and "brutally honest".

[Ulicus]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

She's
not dumb, you have your objective and she feels that is what you should
be focusing on instead of helping out petty squabbles which do nothing
to aid you in your task nor does she like taking on unnecessary risks.

Except that just about everything she gets mad about is
intended to gain more members for your army, whether immediately or in
the long run.  She even whines when you try to save the mages.

Except that's not really true. She objects to Redcliffe because, honestly, that looks like a lost cause. If I was actually living my character's life - as opposed to playing a game in which I knew I could win - I'd certainly not stick around when Eamon might already be dead, he might not even help me anyway, and I've got other armies to gather.

With the mages, she's only fine with wiping them all out after you've already assured that an army of Templars will fight for you if they're annulled. Which, though unpleasant, isn't a dumb or impractical stance to take (though you can convince her out of it, should you so choose)

As for the dwarves, she objects only if you wish to destroy the anvil. Which, considering how useful Golems would be against the Blight, is fair enough from a pragmatic standpoint. You can persuade her to think otherwise in that instance, too, however.

And then there's the Dalish, where she'll happily approve of your character's plan - it's not something she suggests - to give the werewolves their vengeance in exchange for their servitude against the Blight. I don't think she disapproves if you choose to side with the elves, or help everyone out, however. (Can't remember)

I mean, disagree with her by all means, but don't characterise her as someone who simply gets mad whenever you're trying to recruit people into your army. *Shrug*

Schneidend wrote...

Ethan009 wrote...

Yet if she wasn't raised by that crazy old hermit she would be right along with them. Frankly I find her petty and pathetic and wish my PC could call her out on it. Sadly the writers seem to have not realized people might you know..spot this and wanna call her out on it >_>

You can call her out on this, and she assures you she'd probably have killed herself by now if that were the case.

You didn't have high enough persuasion. My characters have never had a problem with getting her to accept that helping out the Circle mages is, in fact, the right thing to do.

I see Morrigan as a character who can most certainly fill the "evil NPC" role if you want her to... but it's ultimately a choice you make as a player. There's nothing about her character that means she has to be that way. She's predisposed towards certain decisions, certainly -- and she's oftentimes shortsighted -- but a persuasive character can point this out pretty frequently. Not quite as frequently as I'd like, but enough.

Modifié par Ulicus, 01 janvier 2010 - 05:09 .

[Suron]

TheMadCat wrote...

She's not dumb, you have your objective and she feels that is what you should be focusing on instead of helping out petty squabbles which do nothing to aid you in your task nor does she like taking on unnecessary risks.

lol..NO..she's DUMB.  As stated..she even pulls this idiocy when you're helping others to HELP YOURSELF because it's NECESSARY for YOURSELF...like Redcliffe...letting the village die makes you lose those that would hold a sword..so it's IN YOUR INTEREST to help them.  It's IN YOUR INTEREST to also help save the Arl...there's some points where your point is true...but also many, like what I mentioned, where you help others to help YOURSELF IN THE END..either way..though..she complains....

she's Chaotic Stupid as others have pointed out...and your point does in no way defend her as a whole.  Because, like I said, she pulls that crap whether it's help others for the sake of it..or help them becuase you NEED them to HELP YOURSELF to achieve your goal.

If you followed her BS it'd be you and her against the Archdemon and the ENTIRE HORDE on your own...THAT'S dumb

[KnightofPhoenix]

Suron wrote...
lol..NO..she's DUMB.  As stated..she even pulls this idiocy when you're helping others to HELP YOURSELF because it's NECESSARY for YOURSELF...like Redcliffe...letting the village die makes you lose those that would hold a sword..so it's IN YOUR INTEREST to help them.  It's IN YOUR INTEREST to also help save the Arl...there's some points where your point is true...but also many, like what I mentioned, where you help others to help YOURSELF IN THE END..either way..though..she complains....

she's Chaotic Stupid as others have pointed out...and your point does in no way defend her as a whole.  Because, like I said, she pulls that crap whether it's help others for the sake of it..or help them becuase you NEED them to HELP YOURSELF to achieve your goal.

If you followed her BS it'd be you and her against the Archdemon and the ENTIRE HORDE on your own...THAT'S dumb

Saving Redcliff is in no way necessary and not very helpful either. All you get is a few peasants, who can't defend themselves anyways. The bulk of Redcliff's army is not from the village.
Saving the Arl is not necessary either, for Teagan can replace him anytime. Sadly Bioware didn't give us the option to let Eammon die and put Teagan in his place. But saving the Arl and saving the village are two different things. One can save the Arl, while ignoring the village. And looking for the urn, which can be nothing more than a myth, is a waste of time. We don't even know if the urn exists, let alone if it cures anything. We just got lucky that it does.

So no, your criticism isn't valid. Saving the village is not necessary. Saving the Arl is not necessary either.
And she didn't suggest that you don't gather an army. What she suggested is to get to Loghain, eliminate him, then gather an army. Which is a valid strategy, except that Bioware doesn't give us the option to do so.

[skotie]

Maviarab wrote...

Also need to add (and seesm not many of you have) if your male and romance her, she does actually start to see your way of thinking and begin to change as a person, no longer being the cold heartless, whats wrong with direct route number 1 person she at first appears to be.

Why she appeals to so many male gamers, she is a complex character that does change along the story.

Really she changes eh. Thats a laugh, I clearly remember her coming clean about her entire reason for joining you, that being her mother sent her with you to make an Old God baby, the Demon child to save your life.

Even if she is in love with you if should you refuse to make this child she will leave your a** high and dry. Yeah loves you a lot and really changed, funny how willing she is to go through with a plan concocted by her mother the body snatcher.

[skotie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
So no, your criticism isn't valid. Saving the village is not necessary. Saving the Arl is not necessary either.
And she didn't suggest that you don't gather an army. What she suggested is to get to Loghain, eliminate him, then gather an army. Which is a valid strategy, except that Bioware doesn't give us the option to do so.

Except that its not, what the hell were you gonna do? Assassinate the man in the middle of the night? Yeah good idea, kill a hero and give the entire nation a real and very valid reason to call a complete munhunt on the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par skotie, 01 janvier 2010 - 09:05 .

[fantasypisces]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Suron wrote...
lol..NO..she's DUMB.  As stated..she even pulls this idiocy when you're helping others to HELP YOURSELF because it's NECESSARY for YOURSELF...like Redcliffe...letting the village die makes you lose those that would hold a sword..so it's IN YOUR INTEREST to help them.  It's IN YOUR INTEREST to also help save the Arl...there's some points where your point is true...but also many, like what I mentioned, where you help others to help YOURSELF IN THE END..either way..though..she complains....

she's Chaotic Stupid as others have pointed out...and your point does in no way defend her as a whole.  Because, like I said, she pulls that crap whether it's help others for the sake of it..or help them becuase you NEED them to HELP YOURSELF to achieve your goal.

If you followed her BS it'd be you and her against the Archdemon and the ENTIRE HORDE on your own...THAT'S dumb

Saving Redcliff is in no way necessary and not very helpful either. All you get is a few peasants, who can't defend themselves anyways. The bulk of Redcliff's army is not from the village.
Saving the Arl is not necessary either, for Teagan can replace him anytime. Sadly Bioware didn't give us the option to let Eammon die and put Teagan in his place. But saving the Arl and saving the village are two different things. One can save the Arl, while ignoring the village. And looking for the urn, which can be nothing more than a myth, is a waste of time. We don't even know if the urn exists, let alone if it cures anything. We just got lucky that it does.

So no, your criticism isn't valid. Saving the village is not necessary. Saving the Arl is not necessary either.
And she didn't suggest that you don't gather an army. What she suggested is to get to Loghain, eliminate him, then gather an army. Which is a valid strategy, except that Bioware doesn't give us the option to do so.

Pretty much this, saving Redcliffe is not necessary, in fact all it does is add a further risk for you dying and having the entire mission be a complete waste anyway. Morrigan is not a metagamer, she does not know if she dies she can simply re-load. To her, if you die, your dead, that's it. So why would she want to risk her neck and her mission for some rednecks that don't even matter. The Arl matters to her, not the village. The Arl is the one commanding the troops, not Mayor Murdock.

[KnightofPhoenix]

skotie wrote...
Except that its not, what the hell were you gonna do? Assassinate the man in the middle of the night? Yeah good idea, kill a hero and give the entire nation a real and very valid reason to call a complete munhunt on the Grey Wardens.

There could have been various options. Yes, assassination without anyone knowing it was you for instance. Negotiation with Loghain. Deal with Anora. Stage an Elven uprising. Make a coup d'etat with nobles. There could have been various ways.

I am not saying it's prudent. And I personally wouldn't have done so. But it could have been possible. Morrigan suggesting we cut the head of the snake is not a stupid suggestion. It's an imprudent one.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2010 - 09:09 .

[TheMadCat]

@Suron: I think Ulicus explained it nicely. You keep looking at things from a hindsight perspective, from a story perspective. Why should the only two Warden's left in Fereldan, the only two people within thousands of miles who can stop the Archdemon and the Blight risk their necks, and as a consequence all of Fereldan, to save a bunch of peasants and a village that looks like a lost cause. She has no complaints about sneaking into the castle to find the Arl, but the battle to her serves no benefit and the possible loss FAR outweighs the possible gain.



She understands you need an army, and things which directly relate to the gathering of the army she doesn't object unless it's counter-productive in her eyes like trashing the anvil. But things that are not directly related to your gathering forces are in her eyes a waste of time and an unnecessary risk. Weather you agree with her or not, reality is you don't need to save the village to gain find the Arl, cure him, and gain his support and his army.

[RSTORM50]

Your character doesn't know you have to save Eamon so he can call this Landsmeet. The idea of going to Redcliffe to seek Eamon's aid was a suggestion by Allister, who says he doesn't know what you should do. (And anything suggested by Allister is automatically going to be looked upon with scorn by Morrigan who doesn't exactly like Templars. Her experience with them makes it more likely she would look unfavorably upon anything a Templar would suggest.)



From their point of view your task is to secure the promises that the treaties will be honored. Going to Redcliffe first makes Morrigan's "We have pressing concerns elsewhere" make sense from that view. If you go to Redcliffe after securing all the treaties, it doesn't make sense since you've completed your task and you have no idea of what to do next. But even then, you do not know you MUST save Eamon.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Maviarab wrote...

She fails to see that if you don't help save Redcliffe, that there will be no landsmeet, no chance of defeating Logain, no chance of gaining enough support for the wardens to defeat the Blight.

hate to be a damp squid, but the fight at redcliffe has 'nothing' to do with you, your goals or being a warden. You need to see the Arl, helping a bunch of peasents does not really improve this goal. It is time wasting, and if you do not help them, follow the dialogue, then there is a great risk you will all be killed in the Redcliffe fight.
Well then, thats sure going to help you kill the archdemon isnt it?

People may not like her, but do not cal her stupid or unintelligent. Right at the start at Lothering, if you ask her for her opinion, she states just go straight to Denerim and kill loghain. Whether or not that is feasible is irrelevent, that really should be your main goal, getting rid of the teryn.

So in essence, while she may not see the 'big picture' in your eyes, Morrigan (like Sten) just cannot see the point in wasting time doing pointless stuff. And saving redcliffe (froma real world RP perspective) is pointless. You can still see/save the Arl without saving them, and without losing ANY disaproval (dependent on dialogue choices) in the game.

So why risk the lives of the only two grey wardens (that you are aware of) saving some hillbilly peasents when you really DO have more important things to worry about?

Does that make some small sense?

No it doesn't. It's still idocy on her part, incapable of going beyond tunnel vision.

You arrive in Redcliffe, but you can't see the Arl. Number 1, the arl is sick, so the rumors go. 2, the castle is blocked because of that little undead problem. The Arl's Brother teagan asks for your help. You can accept or decline. Lets look, from a non-metagaming point of view, the possibilities.

 You let the village fend for itself. Come back, everyone is dead, teagan nearly so. The Castle is still full of undead. Basically, you have come seeking the Arl's aid, but when aid is asked of you, you refuse and cost alot of people their lives. So, when you finally reach the Arl, what do you think his response will be? (no metagaming, please). After his Brother basically says you left the village to die, just how willing do you think said Arl is going to be willing to scratch your back after you basically turned it on his people and his brother?

From a RP perspective, it makes sense to get in the Arl's good books. You know nothing about him, except what Alistair tells you. And even though Alistair thinks he's a stand up guy, he also states that the Arl made him sleep with the live stock and packed him off to the Chantry like a very inconvient mistake. So, there really is no guarantee when you arrive that asking the Arl for aid is going to work. Thus, you want to consider giving him good reasons and backing him into a corner he can't back out of. You save his village and brother, the sucker owes you. Gives you another bargaining chip.

In fact, when you agree to do it, Sten, if he's with you, initially objects. When you tell him that it will help you see the Arl, he agrees, plus 2 approval.

So, the notoriously block-headed quanari can see the pragmatism in such a descision, so why can't Morrigan get it through her skull? I'm not helping the village because I actually care. I'm helping because it gains me an advantage in dealing with the Arl, an unknown quantity to my character, and at this point in the game, where I'm a fugitive with no friends in high places, I need every advantage I can get.

Morrigan simply refuses to pull her head out of the tunnel and look around. She's the one pushing for a head on charge into Loghain, a stupid idea. Nonetheless, Arl Eamon is the most important thing for doing such a thing, and thus, anything to get him onboard your ship is essential.

[IPerrin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

No it doesn't. It's still idocy on her part, incapable of going beyond tunnel vision.

You arrive in Redcliffe, but you can't see the Arl. Number 1, the arl is sick, so the rumors go. 2, the castle is blocked because of that little undead problem. The Arl's Brother teagan asks for your help. You can accept or decline. Lets look, from a non-metagaming point of view, the possibilities.

 You let the village fend for itself. Come back, everyone is dead, teagan nearly so. The Castle is still full of undead. Basically, you have come seeking the Arl's aid, but when aid is asked of you, you refuse and cost alot of people their lives. So, when you finally reach the Arl, what do you think his response will be? (no metagaming, please). After his Brother basically says you left the village to die, just how willing do you think said Arl is going to be willing to scratch your back after you basically turned it on his people and his brother?

From a RP perspective, it makes sense to get in the Arl's good books. You know nothing about him, except what Alistair tells you. And even though Alistair thinks he's a stand up guy, he also states that the Arl made him sleep with the live stock and packed him off to the Chantry like a very inconvient mistake. So, there really is no guarantee when you arrive that asking the Arl for aid is going to work. Thus, you want to consider giving him good reasons and backing him into a corner he can't back out of. You save his village and brother, the sucker owes you. Gives you another bargaining chip.

In fact, when you agree to do it, Sten, if he's with you, initially objects. When you tell him that it will help you see the Arl, he agrees, plus 2 approval.

So, the notoriously block-headed quanari can see the pragmatism in such a descision, so why can't Morrigan get it through her skull? I'm not helping the village because I actually care. I'm helping because it gains me an advantage in dealing with the Arl, an unknown quantity to my character, and at this point in the game, where I'm a fugitive with no friends in high places, I need every advantage I can get.

Morrigan simply refuses to pull her head out of the tunnel and look around. She's the one pushing for a head on charge into Loghain, a stupid idea. Nonetheless, Arl Eamon is the most important thing for doing such a thing, and thus, anything to get him onboard your ship is essential.

   Stubborn and stupid are not synonimous.   I think your points have been debunked, rather than repeating the arguements like you do, here is a new one.  Stubborn though Morrigan's disapproval of your plans may be, it is just her thinking her plans are better.  She is actualy flexible and follows your lead regardless of wether or not she approves of the plan.  You are seriously overreacting to seeing disapproval.  There are plenty of points in the game where party members leave or fight you over decisions.  This is not one of them.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

IPerrin wrote...



   Stubborn and stupid are not synonimous.   I think your points have been debunked, rather than repeating the arguements like you do, here is a new one.  Stubborn though Morrigan's disapproval of your plans may be, it is just her thinking her plans are better.  She is actualy flexible and follows your lead regardless of wether or not she approves of the plan.  You are seriously overreacting to seeing disapproval.  There are plenty of points in the game where party members leave or fight you over decisions.  This is not one of them.

I am not overreacting. I am pointing out a case of short-sighted foolishness on her part. Quite different.

And there are times in the game when she does show more wisdom and insight than others. First thing that comes to mind: encountering Sten in the cage at Lothering. She points out the hypocrisy of the Chantry, who go on about mercy and crap, yet leave a quanari in a cage to be taken by darkspawn. No one else mentions this little bit, yet it's staring you right in the face.

The fact that she doesn't leave your party is irrelevant. Though we don't know from an RP point of view, we know she has reasons for staying until the final fight, regardless if she thinks you an idiot. Thinking her plans are better, despite being given evidence to the contrary, is being thick headed. Stubborn would be "well, you might have a point, but I still think you're an idiot and my idea is better."

refusing to see the wisdom in a decision, even if you might not agree with it, is being pointlessly obstinante for the sake of doing so, which is hardly pragmatic or productive. Sten is not like this. He voices an objection. You counter it. He might agree or disagree, but he is willing to consider before he outright rejects it.

And I would have liked it if Morrigan HAD gotten mad, confronted you, had a fight, left,  attacked, whatever, instead of ****ing, moaning, complaining, and then going along with it so she can ****, moan, and whinge another day. At least then it would have felt like there was more conviction/force behind her antagonism. When Sten turned on me in Haven, I actually gained more respect for him. He had a backbone, thought I was an idiot, and directly challenged me. We fight, and then he conceeds. In short, he actually confronted me and forced me to defend my decisions, and back it up with action. Instead of constant complaining, but going along anyway. Morrigan doesn't, and that's why i find her neverending critisisms to be rather hollow and irksome.

[IPerrin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I am not overreacting. I am pointing out a case of short-sighted foolishness on her part. Quite different.

And there are times in the game when she does show more wisdom and insight than others. First thing that comes to mind: encountering Sten in the cage at Lothering. She points out the hypocrisy of the Chantry, who go on about mercy and crap, yet leave a quanari in a cage to be taken by darkspawn. No one else mentions this little bit, yet it's staring you right in the face.

The fact that she doesn't leave your party is irrelevant. Though we don't know from an RP point of view, we know she has reasons for staying until the final fight, regardless if she thinks you an idiot. Thinking her plans are better, despite being given evidence to the contrary, is being thick headed. Stubborn would be "well, you might have a point, but I still think you're an idiot and my idea is better."

refusing to see the wisdom in a decision, even if you might not agree with it, is being pointlessly obstinante for the sake of doing so, which is hardly pragmatic or productive. Sten is not like this. He voices an objection. You counter it. He might agree or disagree, but he is willing to consider before he outright rejects it.

And I would have liked it if Morrigan HAD gotten mad, confronted you, had a fight, left,  attacked, whatever, instead of ****ing, moaning, complaining, and then going along with it so she can ****, moan, and whinge another day. At least then it would have felt like there was more conviction/force behind her antagonism. When Sten turned on me in Haven, I actually gained more respect for him. He had a backbone, thought I was an idiot, and directly challenged me. We fight, and then he conceeds. In short, he actually confronted me and forced me to defend my decisions, and back it up with action. Instead of constant complaining, but going along anyway. Morrigan doesn't, and that's why i find her neverending critisisms to be rather hollow and irksome.

  We're fully in agreement  that Morrigan is annoying and irksome if you're trying to play a noble hero type of grey warden.  I don't see idiocy is voicing disapproval of saving Redcliff.  Saving Redcliff slows the warden's progress by 1 game day.  When Bann Teagan tells Arl Eamon that I left him I can say I did not feel like I had time to stick around there, I was on my way to haven, to get the ashes that I just used to save your life, in your scenario.