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Why Nerfing Exists -- A long-winded guide to why you're really, really wrong


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#1
DullahansXMark

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"You just don't like being outscored!"

"It's a co-op game!"

"Tckthuhuluwapphffffuputututu!" (which is a translation of the above into an ancient and forgotten language)

These are the common justifications as to why nothing should ever be nerfed. The co-op argument is, in the small picture, a valid point. Why should you want allies to be weaker? But, thing is, there's a much, much bigger picture here, which I'll go into detail on right now.

I. The character-by-character basis

To better illustrate this point, I'm gonna use an example:

You're playing your favorite co-op RPG shooter, Galaxy of Fantasy. At launch, you had the option to choose between :ph34r: (Ninja), or :bandit: (Bandit). Both characters are equally viable selections, as they both served different roles, but one wasn't necessarily a better choice than the other: it was merely all about how you preferred to play the game. :ph34r: is really fast, and :bandit: has really high defense. All's good. But one day, GoF introduces the :police: (Copper) DLC! :police: is REALLY strong. As a matter of fact, upon release, he's so strong, that he can literally nuke anything just by attacking it. Who needs to move fast, or have high defense, when you can literally kill anything without effort whatsoever? At this point, :ph34r: and :bandit: are merely novelty characters, meaning they're fun to play around with, but when you actually need a character to do a serious mission with, you're gonna turn to :police:. So now the GoF development team has two choices:

A) They can buff :ph34r: and :bandit: to the levels of :police:. This way, they're all on even terms.
B) They can nerf :police: so that he's about on-par with :ph34r: and :bandit:. Same results as above.

Problem with option A, is that if it's selected, the game will suddenly be easier now. Difficulty means nothing! Silver mode is now a cakewalk, and Gold requires so little effort. Platinum can be done if your team is mildly competent.

If they choose B, then not only do you now have three equally viable characters to choose from, but you also preserve the game's difficulty, and by extension, the way it was meant to be.


II. The power-by-power basis

Now that all three characters are just as good as one another, we can take a look at their individual powers. In particular, let's look at :ph34r:. He has the skills Poison Shurikens, Speed Boost, and Immolation, and his two passives. Poison Shurikens is a nice skill, as it adds on some awesome DoT effects. But Immolation is where it's at! That skill just does so much damage and debuffs enemies so bad, it's crazy! But look at Speed Boost. Only a 15% boost in movement speed for 5 seconds if I max it out? What? Screw that, I refuse to spec into a skill so worthless! So what do I, as a player, do? Spec him 6/0/6/6/6 of course. That's what everyone does. It's the best build for him.

The development team takes a look now. After assessing that Immolation's really powerful and Speed Boost is really weak, they now have two options:

A) Increase the power of Poison Shurikens and the speed bonus of Speed Boost to the competitive levels of Immolation.
B) Lower the power of Immolation to Poison Shurikens' level, and raise the potency of Speed Boost to Poison Shurikens' level.

The problem with option A, is that now :ph34r: is the more appealing option in comparison to :bandit: and :police:. Why take the balanced characters when I can take the one with three OP powers? And so balance will need to be re-issued.

If you take option B though, Immolation becomes a much less viable option, sure, but it's still a good skill, and a very handy one at that. Only now, :ph34r: has three good skills to choose from, making builds much harder to decide on, making individual players think about it themselves instead of consulting the internet for that "perfect build" for the character.


In short, balance is necessary for co-op games just as much as it is for PvP games. Why have options when one thing just destroys the viability of the other things? Balance. It's called that for a reason. Nobody's "out to get you" or "trying to ruin your fun". No, we're trying to help you, actually. Open up possibilities, and all that jazz. We all enjoy the game, and sometimes things need to be taken out of power. Nerfs are necessary, just as buffs are. That's the double-edged sword of competitive balance.

Modifié par DullahansXMark, 26 octobre 2012 - 05:21 .


#2
AresKeith

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I have nothing against balancing characters and guns, but there were a couple that are questionable

#3
Kimori

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I really hope people don't tl;dr this. It's well thought out. :P
I, personally, support this view though I'm not good enough with words to have made the point myself. Thank you OP for the time you took to address this point!

Just beware, you're probably going to get some of the NERFING OUR FUN crowd in here now.

#4
DullahansXMark

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AresKeith wrote...

I have nothing against balancing characters and guns, but there were a couple that are questionable


I agree. Sometimes things are taken too far. But the Destroyer nerf, for example, was fine. A slight mechanics change would fix everything that people had an issue with before (turning two-shottys into three-shottys, stuff like that), but a 60% extra clip size was just too much.

Modifié par DullahansXMark, 26 octobre 2012 - 05:27 .


#5
DullahansXMark

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Kimori wrote...

I really hope people don't tl;dr this. It's well thought out. :P
I, personally, support this view though I'm not good enough with words to have made the point myself. Thank you OP for the time you took to address this point!

Just beware, you're probably going to get some of the NERFING OUR FUN crowd in here now.


Let them come, I say!

Come at me, bros!

(Also, I'm hoping the title is tl;dr enough XD)

Modifié par DullahansXMark, 26 octobre 2012 - 05:27 .


#6
cuzIMgood

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Agreed op, good post. The game needs both buffs and nerfs to keep things balanced and allow players to have a vast amount of equally viable options to choose from.

#7
AresKeith

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DullahansXMark wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I have nothing against balancing characters and guns, but there were a couple that are questionable


I agree. Sometimes things are taken too far. But the Destroyer nerf, for example, was fine. A slight mechanics change would fix everything that people had an issue with before (turning two-shottys into three-shottys, stuff like that), but a 60% extra clip size was just too much.


Yea I'm ok with Destroyer nerf but the Demolisher nerf, even though its a few seconds made no sense because the supply pylon is more of a support power

#8
KnoxZone1

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This is stupid they nerfed my Copper by 15% I am never playing this stupid game again. Turn a good class into an utterly useless class to force people to play stupid Ninjas.

#9
Delta_V2

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DullahansXMark wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I have nothing against balancing characters and guns, but there were a couple that are questionable


I agree. Sometimes things are taken too far. But the Destroyer nerf, for example, was fine. A slight mechanics change would fix everything that people had an issue with before (turning two-shottys into three-shottys, stuff like that), but a 60% extra clip size was just too much.


I still have an issue with nerfing a character because it was supposedly too powerful when there are already more powerful classes on the table.  And before anyone says anything, I don't think the GI or TGI really need to be nerfed.

Some nerfs are necessary, like the first Krysae nerf (though I feel the second went too far) and undoing the Piranha buff.  Those weapons were so powerful in the hands of a GI that a halfway decent player could render the game a cakewalk and leave their teammates with nothing to do.  However, I don't think any glaring problems exist today.  I have no problem going point for point with the typical GI and TGI players you find in lobbies.

#10
ErrorTagUnknown

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yep. that sounds about right.. three cheers for Dullahans Mark (is that a whisky?)

of course the copper was never OP he was totally balanced by the fact that he had to stop by for ammo between rounds before he could nuke another group of enemies.

and if you like speed boost, just take it. don't make everyone else take speed boost just because YOU want to take it.

(or at least that's how i see the arguments would have played out...)

#11
kmmd60

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AresKeith wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I have nothing against balancing characters and guns, but there were a couple that are questionable


I agree. Sometimes things are taken too far. But the Destroyer nerf, for example, was fine. A slight mechanics change would fix everything that people had an issue with before (turning two-shottys into three-shottys, stuff like that), but a 60% extra clip size was just too much.


Yea I'm ok with Destroyer nerf but the Demolisher nerf, even though its a few seconds made no sense because the supply pylon is more of a support power


Supply pylon is an offensive power, your true source of damage constantly spew out of it. <_<

#12
darkpassenger2342

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thumbs up.

#13
DullahansXMark

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As I said, some needs are questionable. But BioWare has the numbers here, they're seeing something we can't. We need to just trust their judgment on these things. And if we can't bring it in ourselves to agree, then protest peaceably. Use numbers, hack the SP, do whatever to prove your point. But don't just rant.

#14
Melgrimm

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Why even release the "copper" chracter if the point is to keep the game all even steven? Why not release balanced characters that don't put all others to shame? OP's version of events makes it seem that Bioware is incompetent.

Or. . .

They are just releasing powerful characters to get people to dump money into purchases, then nerfing those characters after they've made their profit so that people want to dump money into the next big thing. Either way its shaky to defend these predictable cycles of nerfing. I understand that there are some things that the programmers don't foresee, and I don't mind a little evolution, but its a bit aggravating if you've worked hard or paid money to get something that then is worthless in a week.

#15
N7 Whiskey

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You used 20 smilies or whatever they are called in your opening post. While I appreciate your effort, it appears really childish. Would suck to have such a concentrated effort at creating dialog stained by that.

Just a fair bit of advice, take it or not.

#16
AresKeith

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kmmd60 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I have nothing against balancing characters and guns, but there were a couple that are questionable


I agree. Sometimes things are taken too far. But the Destroyer nerf, for example, was fine. A slight mechanics change would fix everything that people had an issue with before (turning two-shottys into three-shottys, stuff like that), but a 60% extra clip size was just too much.


Yea I'm ok with Destroyer nerf but the Demolisher nerf, even though its a few seconds made no sense because the supply pylon is more of a support power


Supply pylon is an offensive power, your true source of damage constantly spew out of it. <_<


And it also benefits other players too

#17
CitizenThom

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The same thing can happen by buffing abilities, weapons, whatever. If players are having a blast with power/weapon/whatever 'x' seems to me that you don't smudge out the bright spot...you emulate it.

I've seen very few truly OP things in the game. The Krysae when it first came out, sure. But half of the things that the nerf happy folk call to be nerfed aren't really ruining the game, afterall, I've been able to get by just fine without using most of them.

#18
vonSlash

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Great post, OP.

#19
Cyonan

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Melgrimm wrote...

Why even release the "copper" chracter if the point is to keep the game all even steven? Why not release balanced characters that don't put all others to shame? OP's version of events makes it seem that Bioware is incompetent.

Or. . .

They are just releasing powerful characters to get people to dump money into purchases, then nerfing those characters after they've made their profit so that people want to dump money into the next big thing. Either way its shaky to defend these predictable cycles of nerfing. I understand that there are some things that the programmers don't foresee, and I don't mind a little evolution, but its a bit aggravating if you've worked hard or paid money to get something that then is worthless in a week.


No matter how balanced a team thinks their character is, no matter how much testing they did on it the community will almost always find something that the team just didn't think of. It's less "being incompetent" and more just a fact of making video games. It happens to the developers that are considered the best at balancing their games.

Gamers can be a rather clever bunch of people.

Not going to even touch the conspiracy theory argument.

#20
Guest_Jiovanie-_*

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I agree, but does any character really outshine others? I mean....why should the ones that don't go to the "Go to characters" have to suffer? I understand what you're saying; it makes sense.

Although, just because Copper can kill everything with one attack doesn't mean I'm not going to use my ninja. He's not my ninja. For me, that's what it boils down to. I hated the Destroyer.(I dislike every soldier except for the Batarian.) I don't know though. I play to have fun.

#21
DullahansXMark

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BuckshotSamurai wrote...

You used 20 smilies or whatever they are called in your opening post. While I appreciate your effort, it appears really childish. Would suck to have such a concentrated effort at creating dialog stained by that.

Just a fair bit of advice, take it or not.

I figured  I could get violently drunk or have some fun writing this. The way I chose to do it won't bite me in the ass tomorrow morning.

#22
LeandroBraz

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I came ready to not read it, but it was a really good, simple explanation. Nice job OP...

#23
LeandroBraz

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AresKeith wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I have nothing against balancing characters and guns, but there were a couple that are questionable


I agree. Sometimes things are taken too far. But the Destroyer nerf, for example, was fine. A slight mechanics change would fix everything that people had an issue with before (turning two-shottys into three-shottys, stuff like that), but a 60% extra clip size was just too much.


Yea I'm ok with Destroyer nerf but the Demolisher nerf, even though its a few seconds made no sense because the supply pylon is more of a support power


there's too balances that aare good at some point, but time change things, and it start to look odd. For example, I agree with the Krysae nerf, but now she is really starting to look underpowered, and needing a little buff..

#24
sH0tgUn jUliA

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How about boosting the Asari Adepts.

#25
OMDB

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vonSlash wrote...

Great post, OP.


+1


Although I don't agree with alot of the changes Bioware has done to MP, It is good that you took the time to explain the whole nerf thing.

Modifié par OMDB, 26 octobre 2012 - 06:03 .