351 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrannus00]

Asebstos wrote...

Vubica wrote...

Hey look, another thread where a gracious poster has decided to explain to the internetz why he is right, and everyone else is wrong. TY Interwebz god bless you

Hey look, someone that can't be bothered to make an actual argument to counter the OP and instead makes a passive aggressive comment.

TY Interwebz god bless you.

Hey look, somone else creeping out of the shadows to 1. Smite trolldom wherever it lurks, C. Defend the OP's actually reasonable post, Purple. Follow the budding trend, or Moo. I don't even know.

[Crimson Vanguard]

Nerfing exists in this game bc Biower did a ****ty job in creating balancing weapons/kits.

[Asebstos]

Tyrannus00 wrote...

Asebstos wrote...

Vubica wrote...

Hey look, another thread where a gracious poster has decided to explain to the internetz why he is right, and everyone else is wrong. TY Interwebz god bless you

Hey look, someone that can't be bothered to make an actual argument to counter the OP and instead makes a passive aggressive comment.

TY Interwebz god bless you.

Hey look, somone else creeping out of the shadows to 1. Smite trolldom wherever it lurks, C. Defend the OP's actually reasonable post, Purple. Follow the budding trend, or Moo. I don't even know.

I added in more so it didn't seem like I was just jumping on your anti-trolling jock and had an on topic area of dicussion, re: the reegar and balance.

Modifié par Asebstos, 02 février 2013 - 10:03 .

[Tyrannus00]

Asebstos wrote...

Tyrannus00 wrote...

Asebstos wrote...

Vubica wrote...

Hey look, another thread where a gracious poster has decided to explain to the internetz why he is right, and everyone else is wrong. TY Interwebz god bless you

Hey look, someone that can't be bothered to make an actual argument to counter the OP and instead makes a passive aggressive comment.

TY Interwebz god bless you.

Hey look, somone else creeping out of the shadows to 1. Smite trolldom wherever it lurks, C. Defend the OP's actually reasonable post, Purple. Follow the budding trend, or Moo. I don't even know.

I added in more so it didn't seem like I was just jumping on your anti-trolling jock and had an on topic area of dicussion (which I do have)

Pff. I don't care.  Trolls a trolls a trolls a trolls a troll. 

Bloody hell I'm making no sense now.

[doozerdude]

Bump for necessity

[nicethugbert]

Nerf is a derogatory term. Do you really want to defend it?

[Locutus_of_BORG]

While I welcome and condone balance in principle, I feel like some very questionable balancing choices were made over the course of MP history. The damning nerf made to summoned pets, for instance, is one example.

[Titus Thongger]

bump for great justice since some people need to be eaten

[TuringPoint]

AresKeith wrote...

I have nothing against balancing characters and guns, but there were a couple that are questionable

This.

And specific to 'current events' of ME3 MP balance, I don't believe Edibot is as overpowered as many suggest.

I'm sorry people have resorted to disparaging remarks to make their case against nerfing.

Ah, first world problems.

Modifié par Alocormin, 01 mars 2013 - 08:32 .

[Mindfane]

It was a good read. All valid arguments.

But the issue is unlike the characters, the player base is not balanced. There are extremely OP players (who can dominate with any character), there are terrible(casual) players who cannot survive even with the Copper and then there are those in between (the majority of player base).

We have all seen enough threads about PUGs are bad, Bad players in Gold/Platinum lobby.. But these OP kits could give them a chance to play decently among the elite. When I play Gold, I always try to pick my Best Kits such asTGI, GI, AA because I do not want to hold my team back. I have been staying away from Gold until TGI came out because no matter how hard I try, I fail to keep up with others (but there are other games where I could play decently). Now many people will tell you to quit this game and play the ones that you are good at. But the thing is even though I am not good at this game, I really like it.

With the vast number of Rare+ weapons, characters, and gear and an RNG store, playing Silver or Bronze is not going to work very well, especially for new players. So they will try Gold. Now if you nerf these easymode characters, these players will keep on dying wave after wave and even resort to glitching. Now that is going to affect the rest of the players (they will have to carry the team, wipe or quit the lobby).

The presence of these OP kits will not stop you from playing your favorite/niche characters (the Ninja fro example). For example when I play silver, I do not use TGI or GI, instead I run with SE, SI and every other kit, because I enjoy them much more than an OP kit.

So what I am trying to say is a balanced kit in the eyes of a good player may look like a terribly underpowered character for a below avg player.

Need a tldr?

[Kushiel42]

Mindfane wrote...

So what I am trying to say is a balanced kit in the eyes of a good player may look like a terribly underpowered character for a below avg player.

But that's not how balancing works, unless you deliberately design to ignore player skill. Game designers of multiplayer games shouldn't be designing to ignore player skill.

To answer the snipped parts of your post, in the exact same way that more skilled players don't need to play OP kits, you don't need to play in gold games.

[Mindfane]

Kushiel42 wrote...

Mindfane wrote...

So what I am trying to say is a balanced kit in the eyes of a good player may look like a terribly underpowered character for a below avg player.

But that's not how balancing works, unless you deliberately design to ignore player skill. Game designers of multiplayer games shouldn't be designing to ignore player skill.

To answer the snipped parts of your post, in the exact same way that more skilled players don't need to play OP kits, you don't need to play in gold games.

To be able to play in Gold games, you need better guns and better gear and consumables. With the RNG behaviour of the store, this means you need more credits. And Silver or bronze does not pay off. I only play Gold when I am in need of some credits. And I do not even touch Platinum.

Also unlike other competative Mps, this is a co-op game after all. I know the OP has explained that balance is still a necessity. But only to make sure all clases are viable in every difficulty. Thats the difference between balance changes in PVP and CoOP. In PVP you have to make sure one kit does not pwn another kit. But in CoOP one kit being better/easier does not mean the other kits wont be used. Those players who like the niche clases will play them regardless sicne the OP kits are not crippling them.

[BerryDiesel]

no, Kushiel's right. You don't need to play gold.  I play silver...all the time.  The only times I've ever bothered with gold are when I've had too much to drink and say **** it.  If you're only playing to unlock things and have a shiny manifest, then you're in it for the wrong reasons.

Mindfane wrote...

...and even resort to glitching

I've never resorted to missile glitching, credit glitching, or any of the other exploits in the past.  Building a manifest takes time, and in that time experience is accumulated, making players better at the game.  It just takes patience (something unfortunately lacking in younger generations).  I'm content with my manifest, my style of play, and the difficulty I play at; the game is fun, and balance contributes to that.

Mindfane wrote...

But in CoOP one kit being better/easier does not mean the other kits wont be used.

you obviously weren't playing before the TC nerf.  Back then it wasn't uncommon for every lobby you joined to be comprised of three infiltrators and you.

Mindfane wrote...

To be able to play in Gold games, you need better guns and better gear and consumables

only to a certain extent.  a lot of people advise starting gold after you've obtained certain rare weapons and learned how to use them (and this I remember reading about before gear even existed).  a lot of others can finish gold with uncommons/commons with no problem.  The most important requirements for playing in gold games are situational analysis and situational awareness (ie: spawn points, sync kill conditions, class weaknesses/strengths, enemy weaknesses/strengths, faction attack patterns/behaviors, etc...) and those are attained through time and experience.

...anyway, that wound up being longer than I thought, and since I've been drinking, I think it's time to start gaming

edit: since it's not in my sig anymore
http://social.biowar...el&platform=ps3

Modifié par BerryDiesel, 01 mars 2013 - 11:13 .

[Mindfane]

BerryDiesel wrote...

no, Kushiel's right. You don't need to play gold.  I play silver...all the time.  The only times I've ever bothered with gold are when I've had too much to drink and say **** it.  If you're only playing to unlock things and have a shiny manifest, then you're in it for the wrong reasons.

No I dont care f I unlcok verything in the manisfest. But I do want5 to use certain Kits adn Weapons. If the store wasnt RNG based, I would have never unlcoked about half of them anyway

BerryDiesel wrote...
I've never resorted to missile glitching, credit glitching, or any of the other exploits in the past.  Building a manifest takes time, and in that time experience is accumulated, making players better at the game.  It just takes patience (something unfortunately lacking in younger generations).  I'm content with my manifest, my style of play, and the difficulty I play at; the game is fun, and balance contributes to that.

Nor have I. But not everyone wait that long. There are a lot of poeple who play games for a while and move on. They want to get everything pretty quickly.

BerryDiesel wrote...
you obviously weren't playing before the TC nerf.  Back then it wasn't uncommon for every lobby you joined to be comprised of three infiltrators and you.

I have played before TC nerf. But even after the nerf I still play mostly using the Infiltrator class especially the SI, HMI, GFI, TGI, GI and Shadow. 

[78stonewobble]

I guess it all comes down to a point of view.

Now I'm a firm believer in personal freedom AND responsibility.

With that basis it leaves plenty of room for overpowered and underpowered "stuff" in a game like this.

The individual can decide whether he/she wants a challenge or not via not only difficulty but also use of the wide selection of "stuff".

That someone else have it hard or easy in the game does not affect my experience unless I choose to let it.

I DO have the choice to find or start a new game to my liking and the responsibility to not let my own personal idiosyncracies affect other players negatively.

[Arppis]

Nerfing needs to be done sometimes. Otherwise things will stagnate. Still I'd rather see more buffs most of the time.

[fayk_id]

i would play ninja for fun, bandit for diversity, and copper for credits when i am in that mood

balance makes no difference to me, it cannot "break" my game

balance is overrated

[QU67]

Surprised the OP didn't mention the Reckoning characters.

[Ryumanjisen]

QU67 wrote...

Surprised the OP didn't mention the Reckoning characters.

I would be surprised if he did. The original post is four months old.

Modifié par Ryumanjisen, 01 mars 2013 - 12:32 .

[Chealec]

... a necro that was ... worthwhile.

These are crazy times we're living in!

[Impulse and Compulse]

The main issue with your argument is that all you're doing is stating the obvious.

OBVIOUSLY there's a point where game balance comes in. What anti-nerf arguments are saying is that balance is significantly less crucial in an online game like this than in a competitive game. OBVIOUSLY having a character who can nuke everything with no effort alongside one who can barely scratch a minion is a bad thing. But there's a point where it really doesn't make that big of a difference.

What we also like to see is more buffs than nerfs. You are always going to have classes that are the best for higher difficulties, and nerfing those is going to ruin many people's days who really enjoyed those classes. But buffing stuff in careful moderation introduces new elements to the game and encourages people to try new stuff not out of necessity, because they begrudgingly have to discard their old favorite character, but because this new and exciting thing is now out there for them to investigate and see if it's worth using.

[Ziegrif]

This Extra Creditz episode needs to be here.

[darkblade]

If it's the extra credit episode I think, I don't need to watch it. I don't agree with their opinion on the subject.

[Kushiel42]

Mindfane wrote...

To be able to play in Gold games, you need better guns and better gear and consumables. With the RNG behaviour of the store, this means you need more credits. And Silver or bronze does not pay off. I only play Gold when I am in need of some credits. And I do not even touch Platinum.

Maybe I wasn't being clear enough there. You (not necessarily you, just people playing the game) don't ever need to play in gold games, because the only reason to play in gold games is once your skill level and manifest have made it such that playing in silver games is no longer fun because it's too easy. If you need an OP kit or weapon in order to play gold, then obviously you're not at that point yet.

Mindfane wrote...
Also unlike other competative Mps, this is a co-op game after all. I know the OP has explained that balance is still a necessity. But only to make sure all clases are viable in every difficulty. Thats the difference between balance changes in PVP and CoOP. In PVP you have to make sure one kit does not pwn another kit. But in CoOP one kit being better/easier does not mean the other kits wont be used. Those players who like the niche clases will play them regardless sicne the OP kits are not crippling them.

I urge you to try this experiment, which I unintentionally did myself last night.

1) Choose the Volus sentinel, using the build and loadout you're most comfortable and successful with.
2) Enter a lobby consisting of two AIUs with Pirahnas and one TGI with Harrier.
3) Attempt to have fun for the next 25 minutes.

Yes, I played my niche class that I enjoy, in spite of knowing that there are better kits out there. No, I don't feel that I contributed anything significant to the team during that match, which meant that I didn't have fun. (I don't care about score, only feeling like there's a reason for me to be on a given team.) Not due to wildly divergent levels of skills amongst the people in the lobby - I saw all three of the other players do some really dumb stuff that they wouldn't have gotten away with safely if they'd been playing non-OP kits - but because of OP kits.

Modifié par Kushiel42, 01 mars 2013 - 10:43 .

[Mindfane]

Kushiel42 wrote...


I urge you to try this experiment, which I unintentionally did myself last night.

1) Choose the Volus sentinel, using the build and loadout you're most comfortable and successful with.
2) Enter a lobby consisting of two AIUs with Pirahnas and one TGI with Harrier.
3) Attempt to have fun for the next 25 minutes.

Yes, I played my niche class that I enjoy, in spite of knowing that there are better kits out there. No, I don't feel that I contributed anything significant to the team during that match, which meant that I didn't have fun. (I don't care about score, only feeling like there's a reason for me to be on a given team.) Not due to wildly divergent levels of skills amongst the people in the lobby - I saw all three of the other players do some really dumb stuff that they wouldn't have gotten away with safely if they'd been playing non-OP kits - but because of OP kits.

If I play the Volus sentinel, I wont score much no matter what the other kits in the game are, becuase I cannot play with it. But I have played with TGIs with certain other classes like Asari Adept (whch I do not think is an OP kit) and I did not feel unwanted.  like you, I do not care about the score either. If I did not die too many times and was able to assist I am OK. In the said game, there were 2 TGIs and 1 SI then me (the AA). During the first 2 waves, I couldn't get anything to kill. But then I moved closer to the SI and started Stasising the enemies for him. I only killed stuff that he did not want. It was really fun. I stayed with this team for 3 more games and I kept on doing this. It was really fun. 

But I do know that this wont work all the time. 

Ok about playing gold games. Let me share with you my persoanl experience,

When the Earth DLC was released, I was most looking forward to the N7 Shadow. At that time I did not even unlock the majority of wepoans or charcters that were previously released bewcuase I was playing Bronze and SIlver only (and only on weekends). I saved credits for 2 weeks and spent them all right after the DLC release. But I did not get any Earth charcters due the RNG nature of store. In fact it took 3 months till I unlocked the Shadow. This was no big issue for me becuase I knew I will be playing this game for a while. But some of my friends play a lot of games and many of them stopped playing ME3 becuase they couldn't play the class they wanted in a reasonable amount of time. 3 months is a long time.

After this experince I started playing Gold games so that I could get my manifest maxed so that when the next DLC comes out I could get things faster. I acknowldge that I am not gold viable unless I have a very good kit. The only exception is AA since I have played several Gold with her and did not suck. Most othert times I go in with TGI, GI or Destroyer and I still score only 3rd or 4th . Anyway becuase of this I was able to unlock most of the Reckoning kits (I unlocked the last Retalliation Kit 4 days ago) and got a few of the Reckoning Kits in the first day. So if there was some new DLC still to come, I would still do this.