351 réponses à ce sujet

[weaselshep]

The problem isn't nerfing. It's when people call for it when there are other things that are just as broken.

[RoundedPlanet88]

weaselshep wrote...

The problem isn't nerfing. It's when people call for it when there are other things that are just as broken.

Do two lefts make a right?

[Josh182]

Nerfs happen to prevent easy credit farming. Bioware could care less about any of your posts about why things should be nerfed. They have there own method for determining that. They dont come on here seeking the "wisdom" of the community with all there great threads about "balance"

bsn makes me laugh

[RoundedPlanet88]

Josh182 wrote...

Nerfs happen to prevent easy credit farming. Bioware could care less about any of your posts about why things should be nerfed. They have there own method for determining that. They dont come on here seeking the "wisdom" of the community with all there great threads about "balance"

bsn makes me laugh

Then why has Rio not been fixed? I don`t disagree with you, but your theory fails to take Rio farming into consideration. And you can`t claim that they are unaware of it, not unless they are all ostriches sticking their heads in the sand.

[Cyonan]

Josh182 wrote...

Nerfs happen to prevent easy credit farming. Bioware could care less about any of your posts about why things should be nerfed. They have there own method for determining that. They dont come on here seeking the "wisdom" of the community with all there great threads about "balance"

bsn makes me laugh

Because so many people were farming credits easily with the Vindicator or Carnifex.

[Grunt_Platform]

Kushiel42 wrote...
(Specific examples are always better for discussion than sweeping generalizations. )

<3:wub:<3


Seriously though. It's not hard to be specific. I think a strong case could be made for the following weapons and powers being weak: Geth Pulse Rifle, Revenant, Phaeston, Krysae, Collector Rifle, Carnage, Sabotage, Sentry Turret, Submission Net.

Probably a few others, but those stand out to me for being noticeably weaker than their closest alternatives (Phaeston is out-done by other uncommons, Revenant by other rares, etc)... ... but that's actually a pretty short list, when you consider everything in the game.

Meanwhile, the only things that could invite nerfs due to being very powerful?... Repair Matrix, Stimulant Packs, Tactical Cloak (3 major varieties), Cerberus Harrier, Reegar Carbine. You could maybe make a case for the Juggernaut's Hardened Platform passive but I think that's ridiculous.

I'm not advocating specific nerfs for any of these because I think there's room for debate on all of 'em.

Point is.. There's plenty to discuss, but when you actually get specific you see how short the lists are relative to the volume of things in the game.

Modifié par EvanKester, 04 mars 2013 - 10:54 .

[Josh182]

RoundedPlanet88 wrote...

Josh182 wrote...

Nerfs happen to prevent easy credit farming. Bioware could care less about any of your posts about why things should be nerfed. They have there own method for determining that. They dont come on here seeking the "wisdom" of the community with all there great threads about "balance"

bsn makes me laugh

Then why has Rio not been fixed? I don`t disagree with you, but your theory fails to take Rio farming into consideration. And you can`t claim that they are unaware of it, not unless they are all ostriches sticking their heads in the sand.

Who says they wont. They have "fixed" several maps already, give it time.

[RoundedPlanet88]

Josh182 wrote...

RoundedPlanet88 wrote...

Josh182 wrote...

Nerfs happen to prevent easy credit farming. Bioware could care less about any of your posts about why things should be nerfed. They have there own method for determining that. They dont come on here seeking the "wisdom" of the community with all there great threads about "balance"

bsn makes me laugh

Then why has Rio not been fixed? I don`t disagree with you, but your theory fails to take Rio farming into consideration. And you can`t claim that they are unaware of it, not unless they are all ostriches sticking their heads in the sand.

Who says they wont. They have "fixed" several maps already, give it time.

As far as I know there are no more patches, and Cyonan also made a good point as well.

[Josh182]

Cyonan wrote...

Josh182 wrote...

Nerfs happen to prevent easy credit farming. Bioware could care less about any of your posts about why things should be nerfed. They have there own method for determining that. They dont come on here seeking the "wisdom" of the community with all there great threads about "balance"

bsn makes me laugh

Because so many people were farming credits easily with the Vindicator or Carnifex.

Did i say every single nerf that has ever happened happened for that reason? Yur a dip-****

[Josh182]

RoundedPlanet88 wrote...

Josh182 wrote...

RoundedPlanet88 wrote...

Josh182 wrote...

Nerfs happen to prevent easy credit farming. Bioware could care less about any of your posts about why things should be nerfed. They have there own method for determining that. They dont come on here seeking the "wisdom" of the community with all there great threads about "balance"

bsn makes me laugh

Then why has Rio not been fixed? I don`t disagree with you, but your theory fails to take Rio farming into consideration. And you can`t claim that they are unaware of it, not unless they are all ostriches sticking their heads in the sand.

Who says they wont. They have "fixed" several maps already, give it time.

As far as I know there are no more patches, and Cyonan also made a good point as well.

no he did not, you people go ahead and believe whatever you want.

[Cyonan]

Josh182 wrote...
no he did not, you people go ahead and believe whatever you want.

Then perhaps you'd like to explain why things that were not being used to farm credits easily got nerfed?

Perhaps you can also explain why they nerfed Tactical Cloak using our suggestion?

[Grunt_Platform]

Josh182 wrote...

Did i say every single nerf that has ever happened happened for that reason? Yur a dip-****

You implied it.

Your core point, that threads on the board don't tell them what to do is mostly correct though. That said, BioWare has listened to players on balance issues in the past. Havoc Strike, Tactical Cloak, the Falcon Assault Rifle, and a handful of other changes shows this can happen. It just has to be backed up by data only BioWare can see.

Modifié par EvanKester, 03 mars 2013 - 11:39 .

[Cyonan]

Josh182 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Josh182 wrote...

Nerfs happen to prevent easy credit farming. Bioware could care less about any of your posts about why things should be nerfed. They have there own method for determining that. They dont come on here seeking the "wisdom" of the community with all there great threads about "balance"

bsn makes me laugh

Because so many people were farming credits easily with the Vindicator or Carnifex.

Did i say every single nerf that has ever happened happened for that reason? Yur a dip-****

I point out a hole in your theory and you insult me for it? Seems legit.

Not surprising since nobody with that theory has ever been able to come up with an answer to that flaw =P

[sN00Z]

 While I applaud you for taking the time and energy to illustrate a coherent argument for the most part there are several variables that you forgot to mention that drastically changes the way you would justify the need for nerfs on particular items.

1) Does the game FORCE you to play with people who use overpowered kits? If not why don't you play with indivdiduals  whom meet your requirements of fair play.

2) Also your arugment suggests that a "balanced" game is more fun than a game with overpowered kits. Your definition of "Fun" can drastically differ from other individuals. 

For example I have a very limted duration for gaming with my responsibilities and what I consider extremely fun is clearing platinum as fast my team is able. If they consists of a TGI, GI, or AIU, then so be it, lets see which of the OP kits can score the highest, thats a mini game I like to play with my teamates when we do use those kits.

3) Last time I checked, we play games for fun, not chiefly because the sense of justice, fairness, balance and/or equality. 

4) The difficulty of many games can be adjusted by the user and ME3 multi is no different. If you dislike the how the game's difficulty has been lowered because of the over powered kits, why not solo platinum, collectors with a level 1 human engineer, no equipment and only use common weapons whilst not using missles? When you can do that with a video, I not tip my hat to you but will cease any further inquiry with regards to the reason you purport which justifies nerfing.

 

[Josh182]

Cyonan wrote...

Josh182 wrote...
no he did not, you people go ahead and believe whatever you want.

Then perhaps you'd like to explain why things that were not being used to farm credits easily got nerfed?

Perhaps you can also explain why they nerfed Tactical Cloak using our suggestion?

I have no idea. But what is your point? I already said i didnt claim every single nerf was because it was op and used to farm credits. So perhaps you would like to explain why weapons that were not considered op got nerfed?

And bsn throws out 50 million ideas on what they think is balanced and your shocked that one of them was actually used?

Hey i saw a thread suggesting they nerf the duration on repair matrix. So if that happens, it simply must be because the devs saw that thread right? Bsn is full of nothing but ****ing and nerf suggesting, its kind of hard for them to make a nerf that someone hasnt already stated.

[Cyonan]

Josh182 wrote...

I have no idea. But what is your point? I already said i didnt claim every single nerf was because it was op and used to farm credits. So perhaps you would like to explain why weapons that were not considered op got nerfed?

And bsn throws out 50 million ideas on what they think is balanced and your shocked that one of them was actually used?

Hey i saw a thread suggesting they nerf the duration on repair matrix. So if that happens, it simply must be because the devs saw that thread right? Bsn is full of nothing but ****ing and nerf suggesting, its kind of hard for them to make a nerf that someone hasnt already stated.

My point is that the majority of the changes have not been in response to farming. There have been 2 that were a direct result of it, which were the changes to both Glacier and White.

The general answer for why things that we didn't agree with getting nerfed is that BioWare felt it was too powerful. Attempting to argue that anything like the Vindicator, Carnifex(at the time of it being nerfed), or Typhoon 1 week after Earth hit was being used to farm be the average player is not something that you'll win.

Other than Glacier/White, you really don't have any evidence to support your claim that nerfing is done to prevent easy credit farming.

Most nerf suggestions target one thing. They did nearly everything we suggested across multiple evolutions. The only difference was that they nerfed base damage increase instead of evo 2.

[Josh182]

My point is that the majority of the changes have not been in response to farming. There have been 2 that were a direct result of it, which were the changes to both Glacier and White.

The general answer for why things that we didn't agree with getting nerfed is that BioWare felt it was too powerful. Attempting to argue that anything like the Vindicator, Carnifex(at the time of it being nerfed), or Typhoon 1 week after Earth hit was being used to farm be the average player is not something that you'll win.

Other than Glacier/White, you really don't have any evidence to support your claim that nerfing is done to prevent easy credit farming.

Most nerf suggestions target one thing. They did nearly everything we suggested across multiple evolutions. The only difference was that they nerfed base damage increase instead of evo 2.[/quote]


You do not have to wait untill something is used to farm in order to prevent people from farming with it. Which goes with exactly what im saying, they dont sit around waiting for nerf threads to pop up from all the bsn superstars. So all the nerf threads are not only annoying but pointless.

Ok so they felt it was too powerfull, meaning they didnt want everyone using it....my explanation is that they dont want people getting credits easily...your explanation is..nothing...all you did was state it was nerfed because it was considered to powerfull...obviously if it got nerfed then of course it was considered to powerfull...again...whats your point?

Well, at least i have those 2. You have no evidence at all suggesting otherwise. So....?

Yes, most individuals who cry nerf only make one or two suggestions, multiply that by the 50+ people who cry nerf and you still have pretty much every base covered. Regardless, if my 2 map examples are being written off as not enough evidence to support my argument, then this 1 example of them nerfing how it was suggested (not even doing it exactly how it was suggested according to you) is certainly not enough evidence.

This is a business, its main objective is to make money. In this case, playing is free but making headway on your manifest for new players is a struggle, bioware points help mitigate that struggle. If something else comes along that reduces the incentive to purchase bioware points, it will be dealt with, either in response to it being used or as a pre-emptive strike.  Why they dont close the rio box, i have no idea, mabey they will in the future, mabey they dont care anymore and figure people will always find a spot on a map to exploit. Mabey they are just moving on to me4. They fix two other maps for exploits and leave this be. There is no explanation any way you look at it.

Like all arguments on bsn this is pointless, no one is going to change anyones mind and we are both just going to write eachother off as ignorant. Go ahead and get the last word in, i will not be checking this thread anymore...cuz you know..like i said, its pointless and a waste of time.

[whalewhisker]

My problem is that regardless of buffs or nerfs, this game is horrendously unbalanced in general.

[thatdamnlobster]

I will always love you OP for this thread.

[ZiRK]

whalewhisker wrote...

My problem is that regardless of buffs or nerfs, this game is horrendously unbalanced in general.

Explain horrendously unbalanced

[DullahansXMark]

thatdamnlobster wrote...

I will always love you OP for this thread.

Happy to do my part.

[Kushiel42]

EvanKester wrote...

Seriously though. It's not hard to be specific. I think a strong case could be made for the following weapons and powers: Geth Pulse Rifle,

The GPR has only ever been buffed, never nerfed.

EvanKester wrote...

Revenant,

Ditto.

EvanKester wrote...

Phaeston,

Ditto.

EvanKester wrote...
Krysae,

Nerfed into near unplayability, yeah.

EvanKester wrote...

Collector Rifle,

Only ever been buffed, not nerfed.

EvanKester wrote...
Carnage,

Ditto.

EvanKester wrote...

Sabotage,

This one's been batted around both ways. I wasn't around when it was buh-roken, but the vets I've spoken with have assured me that it needed to be nerfed at that point (though they've all agreed that it was nerfed a bit too hard). I'll argue that it's a viable power at this point, though certainly not a very good one.

EvanKester wrote...

Sentry Turret,

Got buffed a bunch, and then had its effectiveness reduced somewhat by the nerf to all pets versus melee creatures. It's still definitely a viable power, though.

EvanKester wrote...

Submission Net.

Only ever been buffed, never nerfed.

So, not seeing much in the way of evidence that player nerfs outnumber player buffs, here, or that BW has got a history of nerfing weapons and powers into the ground as Battlepope claimed...

EvanKester wrote...
Point is.. There's plenty to discuss, but when you actually get specific you see how short the lists are relative to the volume of things in the game.

Here we're in agreement. 

Modifié par Kushiel42, 04 mars 2013 - 10:33 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Kushiel42 wrote...
Only ever been buffed, never nerfed.

Uhhhh I never said they were nerfed? The point I was trying to make is that if you look at  specifics you notice that only a fairly small slice of things in the game are underpowered.

I think I forgot to include a clarifying statement like "I think a strong case could be made for the following weapons and powers being too weak:"

My bad. I can't remember what I saw in the debate that I thought that would be clear on its own.

I'm actually pretty frequently chastizing people for making ridiculous claims about balance changes. Only got a custom icon recently so I should be easier to remember now. The simple truth is that there's been faarrr more buffs for player side things than nerfs. 

I mean. the complete list of major nerfs is: Sabotage, Falcon, Tactical Cloak, Hunter Mode, Stimulant Packs, Krysae ad debatably the Typhoon. Every other nerf was pretty small.

Modifié par EvanKester, 04 mars 2013 - 10:50 .

[Stoned Roman]

I disagree on a couple points.. First, they can see the numbers before any of us do, obviously. So why would they release something, then suddenly decide it needs to be toned down after having had THOUSANDS of people whine and cry about how OP it is? It's like a gunsmith crafting a high-powered rifle for his client base, and only THEN realising he makes hunting weapons for children. They need to just finish the product before they release anything, not wait until everyone is raging over it. Second, it's rwally not such a bad thing if a class has an amazingly nice power. I mean, instead of making everything in the game exactly the same thing, with slightly different animations and colors tossed in, let each class have their claim to fame. I really don't know how I can elaborate on that statement further without wasting time. That's what I think anyways.

[Grunt_Platform]

Stoned Roman wrote...

I disagree on a couple points.. First, they can see the numbers before any of us do, obviously. So why would they release something, then suddenly decide it needs to be toned down after having had THOUSANDS of people whine and cry about how OP it is? It's like a gunsmith crafting a high-powered rifle for his client base, and only THEN realising he makes hunting weapons for children. They need to just finish the product before they release anything, not wait until everyone is raging over it. Second, it's rwally not such a bad thing if a class has an amazingly nice power. I mean, instead of making everything in the game exactly the same thing, with slightly different animations and colors tossed in, let each class have their claim to fame. I really don't know how I can elaborate on that statement further without wasting time. That's what I think anyways.

Because sometimes a power's actual impact on the metagame isn't obvious until it's released to the playerbase at large.

And letting each class have their own claim to fame is exactly what balance is about.

...I thought Dullahan covered all of this in the original post?