351 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark Tlaloc]

ryoldschool wrote...

duffpastorius wrote...

TL;DR

Kidding. I like the balancing of weapons and classes but some of the changes bioware has made are questionable. Like the second typhoon nerf and the random Demolisher nerf. But for the most part bioware is doing a good job.

The TC nerf was explained ahead of time because they presented data which only they were certain of ( we knew there were lots of infiltrators on Gold, but not sure of the actual numbers ).    Obviously they must have known something about Destroyers and demolishers data meaning that they needed nerfing, but did not share the information before they nerfed - thus making it seem like it was out of the blue.

Bioware seemed like they learned something because of the second Typhoon nerf and Piranha nerfs - don't release a new weapon that is too strong and then nerf it as it pisses people off who worked hard to get it.

I wonder what other data they have that they are not sharing with us that might surprise most of us here.   I have some opinions based on what I see used successfully a lot in my own gold matches, but I prefer not to bring attention to anything that might lead it to getting nerfed, as I believe that bioware will act on their data instead of anecdotal evidence from some of us.

I will say that although all loadouts are viable on Gold if you play on a good team, certain "better" loadouts are much better on a weak team and they tend to get played a lot.   It just seems like they are playing wack-a-mole by nerfing the current favorite go-to class/loadout.

I feel bad for the Demolisher, because (and I could be wrong about this since I don't play it much) I feel like it was only nerfed because it was such a great choice for farming FBW/G/G back in the day. Again, I don't play it much, but I feel like the character is pretty one dimensional, and not particuarly suited to being mobile, which is pretty important on the higher levels. So to me this change seemed like one aimed strictly at the overuse in farming. 

[Happy Shepard]

I don't have a problem with nerfs. I don't agree with the Destroyer or Demolisher nerf (not that a nerf wasn't necessary, but rather how and when they did it), but i won't start crying about how my MP experience was ruined.

But i can't take those "the Ghost is superman, nerf him!!!"-topics serious because they are neither filled with reasonable explanations of their opinions and arguments for a nerf nor do they show any will to discuss this issue. It's nothing more than a childish demand thrown at BioWare in the most immature way you could imagine.

And the result is: BSN starts to talk about nerf/buff philosophy instead of starting a respectful discussion about a specific nerf.

Not to forget that half of those nerf threads were created by trolls.

[Eckswhyzed]

neteng101 wrote...


We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Correlation =/= Causation

I also suppose we'll see a TGI, Harrier, Reegar and GI nerf next week as well?

[Dunmer of Redoran]

This thread is great and you should feel great.

Seriously, this is a fantastic description of why nerfing is important and why it shouldn't be typecast. For players who don't understand how different builds and kits dominate Platinum, or don't know the numbers behind stuff, this is the best way for them to understand that.

And yeah, Power Creep is totally a problem.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

neteng101 wrote...


We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Correlation =/= Causation

I also suppose we'll see a TGI, Harrier, Reegar and GI nerf next week as well?

Hey if the Harrier and Reegar got nerfed, I wouldn't be complaining. 80 percent of the people I end up playing with on Platinum use one, or both, of those guns. If they weren't so much better, nobody would use 'em.

[Eckswhyzed]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Hey if the Harrier and Reegar got nerfed, I wouldn't be complaining. 80 percent of the people I end up playing with on Platinum use one, or both, of those guns. If they weren't so much better, nobody would use 'em.

Eh, Platinum is so screwed up with its boss spam I tend to leave it out of balance discussions.

[ryoldschool]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

neteng101 wrote...


We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Correlation =/= Causation

I also suppose we'll see a TGI, Harrier, Reegar and GI nerf next week as well?

Hey if the Harrier and Reegar got nerfed, I wouldn't be complaining. 80 percent of the people I end up playing with on Platinum use one, or both, of those guns. If they weren't so much better, nobody would use 'em.

anecdotal evidence;)

Modifié par ryoldschool, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:52 .

[neteng101]

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

As some people have pointed out, from a financial (and, I suppose "popularity") perspective, it's in Bioware's best interests to keep things relatively difficult, hence the nerfs to powerful weapons and classes, and the relative ignoring of weapons and classes that may need more love. The easier the game becomes, the more credits are readily available, which means the less incentive people will have to spend real money on packs in the store.

The conspiracy theory yes - we've talked about this too.  In reality, I suspect Bioware is quite out of touch with its true playerbase (not just the elite portion on BSN)...  the game's actually becoming truly daunting for newer players given the store system hasn't changed, but the number of items in it has increased dramatically.

Also as someone else stated already - most folks aren't asking for the game to be made easier - but not for the difficulty to be increased either.  Its only a few ubers that ask for difficulty increases, and the super small platinum player base is proof enough that this is not the market Bioware needs to be aiming for.

You want the newer player to be super excited when they unlock a Typhoon, see it be such an awesome weapon that they'll want to max it out (weight is a key factor for upgrades).  Not for someone to unlock an UR and go MEH, its really not that good, why should I bother spending on packs?

I'm sure this isn't the only driving factor in the way balance changes are done (I would assume it's about 50% about making money and 50% about gameplay, but I could be way off), but I'm also sure that it factors in fairly strongly, because otherwise, how would they be able to continue to churn out new weapons/kits/maps/etc.? 

We've asked but I'm not sure Bioware will ever tell us how good the store is for them.  We do know the ME3 MP playerbase isn't nearly what it is with some other games.

I do believe what Bryan Johnson has said that part of Bioware's overall intent is to preserve interest in MP, and they feel variety is important.  I think they've just confused variety/personal choices with diversity...  because their balancing philosophy seeks to make for an equal diversity in the way.

People get bored of playing a few kits sure, so if the other kits were made better, there would be tons more incentive to play them.  The buff all the other stuffs first approach works far better, than forcing the hands/twisting arms to get people to play the other stuffs.  Unfortunately, Bioware has adopted the latter approach.  Which is truly quite offensive an approach I find, because its like they're telling you what you can/can't do and how to play the game.

Does it mean we won't ever see a nerf or two?  No - that could still be done, but it should truly be super rare and only in extreme circumstances, certainly not just based on usage/overuse data.

[Nissun]

I don't think I fully agree with this. By that logic, the new turians should be "nerfed" since their dodge is too cool when compared to the no-dodge of the old turians. But here is the thing: bufffing the old turians would not suddenly make them able to beat Platinum by just walking into the match. And by "buff" I mean giving them the roll they should have had since motherf***ing day one.

Also: I seriously don't understand why people are calling for Ghost nerf. The Geth Infiltrator and the Shadow are still more powerful. And, at least the Shadow, more popular.

[ryanshowseason3]

LeandroBraz wrote...

Melgrimm wrote...

Why even release the "copper" chracter if the point is to keep the game all even steven? Why not release balanced characters that don't put all others to shame? OP's version of events makes it seem that Bioware is incompetent.

Or. . .

They are just releasing powerful characters to get people to dump money into purchases, then nerfing those characters after they've made their profit so that people want to dump money into the next big thing. Either way its shaky to defend these predictable cycles of nerfing. I understand that there are some things that the programmers don't foresee, and I don't mind a little evolution, but its a bit aggravating if you've worked hard or paid money to get something that then is worthless in a week.

Testing a character with 15 employees is one thing. Releasing it to the entire community is another. They will never be able to know 100% sure what impact a character will have on the game, or how we gonna use this character. What you are saying is impossible. They just didn't got in their tests that "copper" would unbalance the game, which is completely understandable....

especially since testing copper likely happened with other testers playing the other characters in the dlc to cover new content. So they aren't really testing against old hat characters to see the disparity.

[ryanshowseason3]

ryoldschool wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

neteng101 wrote...


We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Correlation =/= Causation

I also suppose we'll see a TGI, Harrier, Reegar and GI nerf next week as well?

Hey if the Harrier and Reegar got nerfed, I wouldn't be complaining. 80 percent of the people I end up playing with on Platinum use one, or both, of those guns. If they weren't so much better, nobody would use 'em.

anecdotal evidence;)

Also BW has the numbers, they may fall within some acceptable range of dps over time from all the reloading, missed shots and ammo box trips.

[Xerorei]

Having read the entire OP I must say, people who explain why nerfs/buffs exist seem to always leave out the stacked deck changes done to the Enemies..

Geth: Stun spam, cover flusher, rocket troopers firing when stasis/lashed/immobilized.
Pyro flames being longer than the graphic, pyro flames going through cover they shouldn't be able to.

Cerberus: Atlas DoT rocket, atlases grabbing people through walls, atlas Synch Kill being done instantly, Dragoons, engineer turret spam, DRAGOONS, guardians being able to shield/shoot (and paladin's can't).

Reapers: Banshee instant synch kills, that's pretty much it.

Collectors: Everything being possessed at once. Praetorians shooting through cover, Scions shooting through cover, also cluster bomb spam.

All things can be "Worked Around" typically, until they can't, when there is nothing you can do BUT die, that's when headphones get flung off. (Like the Atlas that grabbed me through the wall I was taking cover and synch killing me, out of nowhere).

[Striker93175]

Defend nerfs all you want... bottom line:

[LeandroBraz]

neteng101 wrote...

TL;DR - If we nerfed people in real life, everyone would be achieving a C average in school. Everyone would earn the same salary regardless of their job.

Ok with nerfing = ok with mediocrity.

That's just stupid!

This is literally the worse example I  ever saw, and it will take a long, long time before I find something near worse. Did you even thought this through?

[Klokos]

Xerorei wrote...

Having read the entire OP I must say, people who explain why nerfs/buffs exist seem to always leave out the stacked deck changes done to the Enemies..

Geth: Stun spam, cover flusher, rocket troopers firing when stasis/lashed/immobilized.
Pyro flames being longer than the graphic, pyro flames going through cover they shouldn't be able to.

[...].

 Because a Flame burns only burns what it touches, right ?

[GreyLycanTrope]

Bioware pls nerf OP.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Klokos wrote...

Xerorei wrote...

Having read the entire OP I must say, people who explain why nerfs/buffs exist seem to always leave out the stacked deck changes done to the Enemies..

Geth: Stun spam, cover flusher, rocket troopers firing when stasis/lashed/immobilized.
Pyro flames being longer than the graphic, pyro flames going through cover they shouldn't be able to.

[...].

 Because a Flame burns only burns what it touches, right ?

For that and flamer, it has to work both ways, but Flamer stops cold at 10 or 15 m depending on what you choose. Why should geth pyro have a long-range flame and Vorcha can't?

[TheLukerez]

I thoroughly enjoyed this.

[LeandroBraz]

Zero132132 wrote...

Other thing, though; most players don't play exclusively with victory in mind. The point of games is to have fun. The Copper can nuke everything, but if I have more fun as a ninja, why the hell would I bother with him? Sort of how I feel about the GI. Still clearly the best damage dealer, but I don't enjoy the style of play, so I rarely use him.

I play like you, I go for the things that are fun, not the most effective, but the majority go for the most effective, so if the difference between two characters is too big, the players base will ignore the most weak. We represent a little percentage, if you ask me, just see all the talk on BSN abou DPS, and how much people go to the internet to find the best build, insteady of doing it by themselves...

[Klokos]

DaftArbiter wrote...

For that and flamer, it has to work both ways, but Flamer stops cold at 10 or 15 m depending on what you choose. Why should geth pyro have a long-range flame and Vorcha can't?

Then the vorcha flamer would need fixing.

[Grunt_Platform]

I'm actually curious what the shotgun usage statistics look like.

I know the Piranha used to overshadow everything. I wonder if the Disciple actually keeps pace with the other shotguns just for being so light, despite all its problems.


If certain power nerfs are what it takes to pave the way for buffs on guns like the Disciple, or the GPR, then I consider it a fair trade.

Modifié par EvanKester, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:22 .

[Mozts]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Bioware pls nerf OP.

Very mature honey. Here, have a cookie.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Klokos wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

For that and flamer, it has to work both ways, but Flamer stops cold at 10 or 15 m depending on what you choose. Why should geth pyro have a long-range flame and Vorcha can't?

Then the vorcha flamer would need fixing.

I endorse this idea.

[Dark Tlaloc]

Klokos wrote...

Xerorei wrote...

Having read the entire OP I must say, people who explain why nerfs/buffs exist seem to always leave out the stacked deck changes done to the Enemies..

Geth: Stun spam, cover flusher, rocket troopers firing when stasis/lashed/immobilized.
Pyro flames being longer than the graphic, pyro flames going through cover they shouldn't be able to.

[...].

 Because a Flame burns only burns what it touches, right ?

No, but it also doesn't instantly kill you, either. These guys are wearing future-armor, and Geth Pyros do an insta-turn to flame you, which takes about 2 seconds till you're dead. If we're arguing realism for their flamethrower, it simply isn't.

[LeandroBraz]

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

neteng101 wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

I hope we can have more discussions about the actual merits of various buffs and nerfs, rather than people just complaining about the entire balance change system (as if they've never done anything but nerf things).

We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Seems like the priorities are really screwed up at Bioware.  The preferred approach I'm sure if you took a poll would be simply to focus on always buffing the less appealing stuff and only nerfing gently in the most extreme of circumstances.

Given the huge power creep on the enemy side as it stands today, there sholdn't be any player side nerfs until they address the enemy side power creep/issues in full first.

And balancing on overuse is just stupid altogether - its anti-choice/personal freedoms, what are we, lab mice?

As some people have pointed out, from a financial (and, I suppose "popularity") perspective, it's in Bioware's best interests to keep things relatively difficult, hence the nerfs to powerful weapons and classes, and the relative ignoring of weapons and classes that may need more love. The easier the game becomes, the more credits are readily available, which means the less incentive people will have to spend real money on packs in the store.

I'm sure this isn't the only driving factor in the way balance changes are done (I would assume it's about 50% about making money and 50% about gameplay, but I could be way off), but I'm also sure that it factors in fairly strongly, because otherwise, how would they be able to continue to churn out new weapons/kits/maps/etc.? 

I doubt that. THe MP don't exist without players, it's suicide to force them to fail, in the hope they spend real money, mostly sonsidering that the majority will just find a way to do credits, or stop playing the game. It's a childsh logic, if you ask me, and I strongly doubt that the developers think like that.