351 réponses à ce sujet

[SixDN9nE]

KnoxZone1 wrote...

This is stupid they nerfed my Copper by 15% I am never playing this stupid game again. Turn a good class into an utterly useless class to force people to play stupid Ninjas.

Wow. I get the feeling that you're constantly "being watched or followed", or if a package you ordered arrived one day late you immediately assume that FedEx is just a giant conspiracy created by your archenemy just to "ruin your fun", and in doing so they end up making 10 trillion dollars. Your pain and misery, my friend,makes other people rich!

If this were the case, then I would be right there with you... But it's not. You are quite narrow-minded, friend! <_<

(in case you're confused... wipe your tears, blow your nose, and next time you have a thought anything like this one..just don't)

[McAllyster]

Problem with option A, is that if it's selected, the game will suddenly be easier now. Difficulty means nothing! Silver mode is now a cakewalk, and Gold requires so little effort. Platinum can be done if your team is mildly competent.

That is simply not true. Because GoF team decided to:
a., nerf Copper
b., and the same time they buff all enemies to a level where an unnerfed copper had also problems.

The enemies suddenly can avoid Ninja skills half of the time; other enemies suddenly immune to the Bandit's melee attack. Also 10% more enemies are respawning. The latest GoF patch introduced also some new units. They can triple the coodowns of all Ninja abilities. For the sake of balance the team nerfed some favourte Copper weapons too.

[LeandroBraz]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

neteng101 wrote...


We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Correlation =/= Causation

I also suppose we'll see a TGI, Harrier, Reegar and GI nerf next week as well?

Maybe TGI will get a stimpack nerf, but I doubt Bioware will rush to do it, mainly because I don't buy all this crap talk about him after the destryoer nerf.

Harrier is one of the most balanced weapons in the game. Don't mistake a weapon being good with a weapon being OP.

Reegar wasn't nerfed so far, I doubt it will happen. Bioware probably agree that her range is enough to keep her on check.

Maybe they see GI in the same way Bryan (I think was him) see, he is powerful, but risk to use, being this enough tradeoff to keep the char on check..

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

I don't mind nerfs.

Hell, I was all for the TC nerf back then. And I mainly used the infiltrators at that time.

I'm all for balance, but when I see a kit being nerfed that I don't feel is OP, obviously I won't agree.

It's a question of point of view.

What is overpowered for someone isn't for someone else. So who has the numbers and make the call? BioWare. I got no problem with that either, as long as they don't make mistakes.

But they made mistakes.

Buffing the Piranha the release day? Lol.
Nerfing the Vindicator back then? They rebuffed it after weeks of pressuring, because it definitely needed no nerfs.

How can we trust the weekly balance changes when it takes weeks, even months for BioWare to correct their mistakes.

[Dark Tlaloc]

LeandroBraz wrote...

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

neteng101 wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

I hope we can have more discussions about the actual merits of various buffs and nerfs, rather than people just complaining about the entire balance change system (as if they've never done anything but nerf things).

We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Seems like the priorities are really screwed up at Bioware.  The preferred approach I'm sure if you took a poll would be simply to focus on always buffing the less appealing stuff and only nerfing gently in the most extreme of circumstances.

Given the huge power creep on the enemy side as it stands today, there sholdn't be any player side nerfs until they address the enemy side power creep/issues in full first.

And balancing on overuse is just stupid altogether - its anti-choice/personal freedoms, what are we, lab mice?

As some people have pointed out, from a financial (and, I suppose "popularity") perspective, it's in Bioware's best interests to keep things relatively difficult, hence the nerfs to powerful weapons and classes, and the relative ignoring of weapons and classes that may need more love. The easier the game becomes, the more credits are readily available, which means the less incentive people will have to spend real money on packs in the store.

I'm sure this isn't the only driving factor in the way balance changes are done (I would assume it's about 50% about making money and 50% about gameplay, but I could be way off), but I'm also sure that it factors in fairly strongly, because otherwise, how would they be able to continue to churn out new weapons/kits/maps/etc.? 

I doubt that. THe MP don't exist without players, it's suicide to force them to fail, in the hope they spend real money, mostly sonsidering that the majority will just find a way to do credits, or stop playing the game. It's a childsh logic, if you ask me, and I strongly doubt that the developers think like that. 

No one is saying they're forcing people to fail, I'm simply stating that there has to be an incentive for people to want to purchase packs for real money. 

[xsuckafreee]

My only question is "If this weren't a co-op game and you just played against the enemy at their current level would you come to the forums asking for these ridiculous balance changes?"

Also why do you care if something is supposedly OP? How does it effect you besides someone taking your kills or outscoring you in a game?

[LeandroBraz]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

Hey if the Harrier and Reegar got nerfed, I wouldn't be complaining. 80 percent of the people I end up playing with on Platinum use one, or both, of those guns. If they weren't so much better, nobody would use 'em.

Eh, Platinum is so screwed up with its boss spam I tend to leave it out of balance discussions.

Agree. When platinum was released, Bioware staff recognized that it would be a difficulty that would require specific builds. I think it's completely normal and acceptable that platinum have a few builds that dominate. Balance should be more foccused on gold and silver.

[LeandroBraz]

neteng101 wrote...

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

As some people have pointed out, from a financial (and, I suppose "popularity") perspective, it's in Bioware's best interests to keep things relatively difficult, hence the nerfs to powerful weapons and classes, and the relative ignoring of weapons and classes that may need more love. The easier the game becomes, the more credits are readily available, which means the less incentive people will have to spend real money on packs in the store.

The conspiracy theory yes - we've talked about this too.  In reality, I suspect Bioware is quite out of touch with its true playerbase (not just the elite portion on BSN)...  the game's actually becoming truly daunting for newer players given the store system hasn't changed, but the number of items in it has increased dramatically.

Also as someone else stated already - most folks aren't asking for the game to be made easier - but not for the difficulty to be increased either.  Its only a few ubers that ask for difficulty increases, and the super small platinum player base is proof enough that this is not the market Bioware needs to be aiming for.

You want the newer player to be super excited when they unlock a Typhoon, see it be such an awesome weapon that they'll want to max it out (weight is a key factor for upgrades).  Not for someone to unlock an UR and go MEH, its really not that good, why should I bother spending on packs?

I'm sure this isn't the only driving factor in the way balance changes are done (I would assume it's about 50% about making money and 50% about gameplay, but I could be way off), but I'm also sure that it factors in fairly strongly, because otherwise, how would they be able to continue to churn out new weapons/kits/maps/etc.? 

We've asked but I'm not sure Bioware will ever tell us how good the store is for them.  We do know the ME3 MP playerbase isn't nearly what it is with some other games.

I do believe what Bryan Johnson has said that part of Bioware's overall intent is to preserve interest in MP, and they feel variety is important.  I think they've just confused variety/personal choices with diversity...  because their balancing philosophy seeks to make for an equal diversity in the way.

People get bored of playing a few kits sure, so if the other kits were made better, there would be tons more incentive to play them.  The buff all the other stuffs first approach works far better, than forcing the hands/twisting arms to get people to play the other stuffs.  Unfortunately, Bioware has adopted the latter approach.  Which is truly quite offensive an approach I find, because its like they're telling you what you can/can't do and how to play the game.

Does it mean we won't ever see a nerf or two?  No - that could still be done, but it should truly be super rare and only in extreme circumstances, certainly not just based on usage/overuse data.

I doubt there's one single game that use the first aproach. I doubt that there's any example on other games of situatuions where a lot of things got buff to be as good as one OP thing, I strongly doubt that you can find any example of that...

[Zso_Zso]

Nice post OP, good explanation!

The general theory is perfectly sound and I am not against all nerfing at all.
However, the devil is in details. Most nerfs BioWare did are good, e.g. destroyer and demolisher I am fine with as well as the piranha one.

However, the Krysae was horribly botched. All the OPness it had was caused by the proximity detonation. That's the only feature they needed to remove and the gun would have been perfect. A sniper gun with a unique variable zoom so you can line up your perfect head-shot. Instead they kept the bad proximity feature and made the ROF so low the gun is useless. Then they even removed the variable zoom, its signature feature according to the blurb on the gun.

[LeandroBraz]

Nissun wrote...

I don't think I fully agree with this. By that logic, the new turians should be "nerfed" since their dodge is too cool when compared to the no-dodge of the old turians. But here is the thing: bufffing the old turians would not suddenly make them able to beat Platinum by just walking into the match. And by "buff" I mean giving them the roll they should have had since motherf***ing day one.

Also: I seriously don't understand why people are calling for Ghost nerf. The Geth Infiltrator and the Shadow are still more powerful. And, at least the Shadow, more popular.

Nobody will nerf something because it's more cool, but because it's considerable stronger than others. If the new turian become popular because of how cool he is, Bioware won't nerf it. They will nerf if he become popular because he is a lot better than other chars.

They are calling this nerf because they are trying to make the argument "destroyer shouldn't be nerfed, because there's others OP chars" stick.

[Ziegrif]

I keep my neutral attitude about nerfs and buffs.
But I do say for a thread title that's deliberately provoking people the thread content itself is quite simple to understand really and considerably less provoking.

Oh and thankfully they nerfed the Basilisks Stone eye kill so my Geth biotic wizard now has a fighting chance!
Now if they just decreased the heretic factions flashlight of doom power levels we'd be set!

Modifié par Ziegrif, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:50 .

[Grunt_Platform]

neteng101 wrote...

We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Yeah. But I much prefer discussions about the merits of this or that buff or nerf to "WAAAH NERFING BAD. BIOWARE NERFS ALL THE GOOD THINGS THAT MAKE THE GAME FUN," and the counterarguments thereof.

What I mean is, instead of wasting time talking about myths or nonsense like that, we could actually have a civil conversation about how bad the Destroyer nerf was (not very), and the like. Maybe, since Eric Fagnan dropped a few hints in the thread for the balance change, we could discuss what other changes it signals (My guess?... Probably a buff to the collector weapons and the typhoon, since I can't imagine what else the magazine bonus would make too hard to balance).

Given the huge power creep on the enemy side as it stands today, there sholdn't be any player side nerfs until they address the enemy side power creep/issues in full first.

I honestly think the power creep on the enemy side is vastly overstated compared to power creep on the player side.

Yes, something happened to the difficulty after the DLC, but after playing more since the release I'm pretty sure most of it is player side. Lots of hosts with poor connections at odd hours, and former farming players flooding Gold lobbies.

Enemy-side power creep is mostly mythical "stealth buffs" variety nonsense. The rest of it is thoroughly exaggerated, or issues that existed since launch.

The only truly meaningful "buffs" enemies received are the Dragoon and the Prime's Combat Drone. If you don't ignore them like a putz the Geth Bombers are actually easier to deal with than the Pyros they replaced, and they deal much much less damage. Everything else isn't such a big deal.

The Collector faction does seem a bit intense for any team not carrying high-end loadouts though. Lots and lots of damage sponges with lots and lots of damage output.

And balancing on overuse is just stupid altogether - its anti-choice/personal freedoms, what are we, lab mice?

They don't balance directly on usage but they clearly use that as a guide for what they should investigate—IE: In the case of the Piranha they actually asked us why it was the most used Shotgun. I'm still waiting for the payoff on the feedback they got regarding other light shotguns, but we did get a huge Wraith buff out of that (now maybe something that isn't Ultra Rare could get a buff eh?).

This issue has been covered pretty thoroughly.

Modifié par EvanKester, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:00 .

[Dark Tlaloc]

LeandroBraz wrote...

neteng101 wrote...

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

As some people have pointed out, from a financial (and, I suppose "popularity") perspective, it's in Bioware's best interests to keep things relatively difficult, hence the nerfs to powerful weapons and classes, and the relative ignoring of weapons and classes that may need more love. The easier the game becomes, the more credits are readily available, which means the less incentive people will have to spend real money on packs in the store.

The conspiracy theory yes - we've talked about this too.  In reality, I suspect Bioware is quite out of touch with its true playerbase (not just the elite portion on BSN)...  the game's actually becoming truly daunting for newer players given the store system hasn't changed, but the number of items in it has increased dramatically.

Also as someone else stated already - most folks aren't asking for the game to be made easier - but not for the difficulty to be increased either.  Its only a few ubers that ask for difficulty increases, and the super small platinum player base is proof enough that this is not the market Bioware needs to be aiming for.

You want the newer player to be super excited when they unlock a Typhoon, see it be such an awesome weapon that they'll want to max it out (weight is a key factor for upgrades).  Not for someone to unlock an UR and go MEH, its really not that good, why should I bother spending on packs?

I'm sure this isn't the only driving factor in the way balance changes are done (I would assume it's about 50% about making money and 50% about gameplay, but I could be way off), but I'm also sure that it factors in fairly strongly, because otherwise, how would they be able to continue to churn out new weapons/kits/maps/etc.? 

We've asked but I'm not sure Bioware will ever tell us how good the store is for them.  We do know the ME3 MP playerbase isn't nearly what it is with some other games.

I do believe what Bryan Johnson has said that part of Bioware's overall intent is to preserve interest in MP, and they feel variety is important.  I think they've just confused variety/personal choices with diversity...  because their balancing philosophy seeks to make for an equal diversity in the way.

People get bored of playing a few kits sure, so if the other kits were made better, there would be tons more incentive to play them.  The buff all the other stuffs first approach works far better, than forcing the hands/twisting arms to get people to play the other stuffs.  Unfortunately, Bioware has adopted the latter approach.  Which is truly quite offensive an approach I find, because its like they're telling you what you can/can't do and how to play the game.

Does it mean we won't ever see a nerf or two?  No - that could still be done, but it should truly be super rare and only in extreme circumstances, certainly not just based on usage/overuse data.

I doubt there's one single game that use the first aproach. I doubt that there's any example on other games of situatuions where a lot of things got buff to be as good as one OP thing, I strongly doubt that you can find any example of that...

I think it's important to note that this is a relatively unique style of MP game. The sheer amount of kits/powers/weapons, plus the fact that so much of the game has been added in after the fact, means that the approach to the game will probably be relatively new/unique. So in that regard, it probably WOULD be very hard to find a comparable example, for whatever that's worth.

[LeandroBraz]

ryanshowseason3 wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

neteng101 wrote...


We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Correlation =/= Causation

I also suppose we'll see a TGI, Harrier, Reegar and GI nerf next week as well?

Hey if the Harrier and Reegar got nerfed, I wouldn't be complaining. 80 percent of the people I end up playing with on Platinum use one, or both, of those guns. If they weren't so much better, nobody would use 'em.

anecdotal evidence;)

Also BW has the numbers, they may fall within some acceptable range of dps over time from all the reloading, missed shots and ammo box trips.

For the goddess! Someone that understand!! DPS by itself means nothing, you must consider other factors like missed shots. I'm really against all the importance that BSN give to numbers, I think experience talk a lot louder, and numbers are liars.  

[LeandroBraz]

Xerorei wrote...

Having read the entire OP I must say, people who explain why nerfs/buffs exist seem to always leave out the stacked deck changes done to the Enemies..

Geth: Stun spam, cover flusher, rocket troopers firing when stasis/lashed/immobilized.
Pyro flames being longer than the graphic, pyro flames going through cover they shouldn't be able to.

Cerberus: Atlas DoT rocket, atlases grabbing people through walls, atlas Synch Kill being done instantly, Dragoons, engineer turret spam, DRAGOONS, guardians being able to shield/shoot (and paladin's can't).

Reapers: Banshee instant synch kills, that's pretty much it.

Collectors: Everything being possessed at once. Praetorians shooting through cover, Scions shooting through cover, also cluster bomb spam.

All things can be "Worked Around" typically, until they can't, when there is nothing you can do BUT die, that's when headphones get flung off. (Like the Atlas that grabbed me through the wall I was taking cover and synch killing me, out of nowhere).

If you stay near an Atlas after he do a melee attack, you deserve to be instankilled, even through walls. Just saying..

One thing don't nullifies the other. They must balance enemies while balancing other stuffs, and they are doing it, but isn't simple. They already did some enemies nerf this week, some changes on bronze and silver waves, and they said they will look at gold this week, so wait for more enemies nerf next week.

[Volkai7]

Melgrimm wrote...

Why even release the "copper" chracter if the point is to keep the game all even steven? Why not release balanced characters that don't put all others to shame? OP's version of events makes it seem that Bioware is incompetent.

Or. . .

They are just releasing powerful characters to get people to dump money into purchases, then nerfing those characters after they've made their profit so that people want to dump money into the next big thing. Either way its shaky to defend these predictable cycles of nerfing. I understand that there are some things that the programmers don't foresee, and I don't mind a little evolution, but its a bit aggravating if you've worked hard or paid money to get something that then is worthless in a week.

Why release the "Copper" character? Because players were starting to get bored of the existing characters.
Why was Copper overpowered? Because game developers are small teams of humans that are not able to account for every possible permutation that the players can and will come up with, not omniscient paragons of intellect. This is why there are patches and updates to tweak the characters to correct imbalances.

If you really, truly, honestly think the devs of a game are intentionally making overpowered kits on purpose as a money grab and then nerfing them to make them no longer desirable, you are astoundingly cynical, and you would probably be better off playing games made by developers you trust to have the players' interests in mind, or switching over to a media format that does not inspire such cynicism. Books, for example.

[LeandroBraz]

Striker93175 wrote...

Defend nerfs all you want... bottom line:

Someone, somewhere, should totally do a game based on this image...

[E71]

Oh my god a wall of text and smilies. I'm so not reading that crap.

[LeandroBraz]

EvanKester wrote...

I'm actually curious what the shotgun usage statistics look like.

I know the Piranha used to overshadow everything. I wonder if the Disciple actually keeps pace with the other shotguns just for being so light, despite all its problems.


If certain power nerfs are what it takes to pave the way for buffs on guns like the Disciple, or the GPR, then I consider it a fair trade.

I never see the disciple, only now because of challenges.

 She definitely need a buff, but surprisingly, I was liking to use it on gold this week. I always liked how her shoot, but the damage wasn't as bad as I told it would be. Bad, but not so bad..

[Baine10]

Drell Assassin Passive Power (All Drell Kits)
- Rank 1 power damage bonus increased from 5% to 10%
- Evolution 1 weapon damage bonus increased from 7.5% to 10%
- Evolution 2 power damage bonus increased from 10% to 15%
- Evolution 3 power damage bonus increased from 15% to 20%
- Evolution 4 head shot damage bonus increased from 20% to 30%
- Evolution 6 weapon damage bonus increased from 10% to 12.5%

Turian Veteran Passive Power (Original 2 Turian Kits)
- Rank 1 weapon damage bonus increased from 7.5% to 10%
- Evolution 1 weapon damage bonus increased from 7.5% to 10%
- Evolution 2 power damage bonus increased from 10% to 15%
- Evolution 3 power damage bonus increased from 15% to 20%
- Evolution 4 head shot damage bonus increased from 20% to 30%
- Evolution 6 weapon damage bonus increased from 10% to 12.5%


As you can see, flat numbers increase across the board. This illustrates the buff/nerf concept beautifully. The "new" classes are designed to be able to cope with platinum, whereas the "older" classes are only balanced towards gold.

OP's rhetoric is the one which everyone should use when looking at nerfs/buffs. The game should be challenging, right now the objective of the game(which is killing everything until the game ends) is biased towards DPS classes. If there aren't any "hard defenses" that shutdown damage, hard damage is the best. Either way, excellent offense = enemies too dead to shoot you. That's just how the game is right now.

Now, what we need, is new mechanics, not new number racing to incentivize people to play other classes. The volus adept is a clear example of new mechanics being tried into the game, but unfortunately the new mechanic in this case has too high a skill ceiling to be of any practical use for the normal gamer.

[Grunt_Platform]

Volkai7 wrote...

f you really, truly, honestly think the devs of a game are intentionally making overpowered kits on purpose as a money grab and then nerfing them to make them no longer desirable, you are astoundingly cynical, and you would probably be better off playing games made by developers you trust to have the players' interests in mind, or switching over to a media format that does not inspire such cynicism. Books, for example.

Man, she totally nerfed the Marauder's Map when they left the school. And The Deathstick's vulnerable to disarming spells now? Rowling breaks all the fun wands!

[ryoldschool]

Ironic in a way. I have not played the TGI yet because I was saving my assault rifle rail 3's for the Destroyer and demolisher, and the TGI is made for assault rifles *cough* Harrier *cough*. I have seen plenty of them in my games, so guess what I'm going to do now?

Its a case of wack-a-mole as I said before. Once you understand that if you find a class/loadout you enjoy playing don't play it so much

[LeandroBraz]

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

LeandroBraz wrote...

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

neteng101 wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

I hope we can have more discussions about the actual merits of various buffs and nerfs, rather than people just complaining about the entire balance change system (as if they've never done anything but nerf things).

We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Seems like the priorities are really screwed up at Bioware.  The preferred approach I'm sure if you took a poll would be simply to focus on always buffing the less appealing stuff and only nerfing gently in the most extreme of circumstances.

Given the huge power creep on the enemy side as it stands today, there sholdn't be any player side nerfs until they address the enemy side power creep/issues in full first.

And balancing on overuse is just stupid altogether - its anti-choice/personal freedoms, what are we, lab mice?

As some people have pointed out, from a financial (and, I suppose "popularity") perspective, it's in Bioware's best interests to keep things relatively difficult, hence the nerfs to powerful weapons and classes, and the relative ignoring of weapons and classes that may need more love. The easier the game becomes, the more credits are readily available, which means the less incentive people will have to spend real money on packs in the store.

I'm sure this isn't the only driving factor in the way balance changes are done (I would assume it's about 50% about making money and 50% about gameplay, but I could be way off), but I'm also sure that it factors in fairly strongly, because otherwise, how would they be able to continue to churn out new weapons/kits/maps/etc.? 

I doubt that. THe MP don't exist without players, it's suicide to force them to fail, in the hope they spend real money, mostly sonsidering that the majority will just find a way to do credits, or stop playing the game. It's a childsh logic, if you ask me, and I strongly doubt that the developers think like that. 

No one is saying they're forcing people to fail, I'm simply stating that there has to be an incentive for people to want to purchase packs for real money. 

bad weapons that take forever to unlock is a incentive? You spend money unlock something after years, find out it's trash, you never spend money again, since it's not worth. Off course the main objective is money, but balance is not done to raise gains, it's done to keep the variety. 

[Zso_Zso]

E71 wrote...

Oh my god a wall of text and smilies. I'm so not reading that crap.

The good old Write Only Mode -- can't be bothered to read it, but still responds...
What is your point ???

Modifié par Zso_Zso, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:10 .

[Dark Tlaloc]

LeandroBraz wrote...
bad weapons that take forever to unlock is a incentive? You spend money unlock something after years, find out it's trash, you never spend money again, since it's not worth. Off course the main objective is money, but balance is not done to raise gains, it's done to keep the variety. 

I understand your point, I just don't think there's such a huge distinction between keeping variety and making money; I think they go hand-in-hand in this case. 

I'm not trying to come off like I think this game is a money grab, btw; so if that's how I'm sounding, that's not my point. I'm just saying I think all factors are related when looking at game balance.