351 réponses à ce sujet

[LeandroBraz]

xsuckafreee wrote...

My only question is "If this weren't a co-op game and you just played against the enemy at their current level would you come to the forums asking for these ridiculous balance changes?"

Also why do you care if something is supposedly OP? How does it effect you besides someone taking your kills or outscoring you in a game?

Affect me by making the game more repetitive, with every lobby filled by the same chars, with the same weapon, doing the same strategy. I care about it in a SP too, I want all options to be viable and interesting, and Bioware would want it even more, since they did the weapons, they want people to use it.

[LeandroBraz]

Zso_Zso wrote...

Nice post OP, good explanation!

The general theory is perfectly sound and I am not against all nerfing at all.
However, the devil is in details. Most nerfs BioWare did are good, e.g. destroyer and demolisher I am fine with as well as the piranha one.

However, the Krysae was horribly botched. All the OPness it had was caused by the proximity detonation. That's the only feature they needed to remove and the gun would have been perfect. A sniper gun with a unique variable zoom so you can line up your perfect head-shot. Instead they kept the bad proximity feature and made the ROF so low the gun is useless. Then they even removed the variable zoom, its signature feature according to the blurb on the gun.

The zoom was because of a glitch. Bioware willl do mistakes, and there's things that just see right at a time, but will become odd after some weeks, like the Krysae nerf. I truly believe they will buff it..

[Eclispe]

I hate gun and character balancing because it takes away the Unique and Specially of that Character or weapon. its men to be different if i want to buy a game were everything is equal and the same as each other i would buy a game like that i bought the game because its unique and it has unique game play style. DONT BALANCE WEAPONS OR CHARACTERS !

[aimimia]

I like the pictures

[ZoM_Head]

Nerfs are OP.

Love to see what classes those players use, against which faction and what difficulty.

Too many nerf threads, not enough buffs.

Eg, the M-8 and GPR need a nice buff in damage, yet so little requests for those.

[LeandroBraz]

EvanKester wrote...

neteng101 wrote...

We've been there before.  People ask for the Disciple to be buffed since forever, but Bioware ignores it.

Someone starts a topic on a Destroyer nerf and it gets done the same week.

Yeah. But I much prefer discussions about the merits of this or that buff or nerf to "WAAAH NERFING BAD. BIOWARE NERFS ALL THE GOOD THINGS THAT MAKE THE GAME FUN," and the counterarguments thereof.

What I mean is, instead of wasting time talking about myths or nonsense like that, we could actually have a civil conversation about how bad the Destroyer nerf was (not very), and the like. Maybe, since Eric Fagnan dropped a few hints in the thread for the balance change, we could discuss what other changes it signals (My guess?... Probably a buff to the collector weapons and the typhoon, since I can't imagine what else the magazine bonus would make too hard to balance).

Given the huge power creep on the enemy side as it stands today, there sholdn't be any player side nerfs until they address the enemy side power creep/issues in full first.

I honestly think the power creep on the enemy side is vastly overstated compared to power creep on the player side.

Yes, something happened to the difficulty after the DLC, but after playing more since the release I'm pretty sure most of it is player side. Lots of hosts with poor connections at odd hours, and former farming players flooding Gold lobbies.

Enemy-side power creep is mostly mythical "stealth buffs" variety nonsense. The rest of it is thoroughly exaggerated, or issues that existed since launch.

The only truly meaningful "buffs" enemies received are the Dragoon and the Prime's Combat Drone. If you don't ignore them like a putz the Geth Bombers are actually easier to deal with than the Pyros they replaced, and they deal much much less damage. Everything else isn't such a big deal.

The Collector faction does seem a bit intense for any team not carrying high-end loadouts though. Lots and lots of damage sponges with lots and lots of damage output.

And balancing on overuse is just stupid altogether - its anti-choice/personal freedoms, what are we, lab mice?

They don't balance directly on usage but they clearly use that as a guide for what they should investigate—IE: In the case of the Piranha they actually asked us why it was the most used Shotgun. I'm still waiting for the payoff on the feedback they got regarding other light shotguns, but we did get a huge Wraith buff out of that (now maybe something that isn't Ultra Rare could get a buff eh?).

This issue has been covered pretty thoroughly.

Agree. The game is a lot easier now for me than when the DLC was released. It's more a matter ogf getting used with the changes than the enemies really being harder than before...

[LeandroBraz]

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

LeandroBraz wrote...

neteng101 wrote...

Dark Tlaloc wrote...

As some people have pointed out, from a financial (and, I suppose "popularity") perspective, it's in Bioware's best interests to keep things relatively difficult, hence the nerfs to powerful weapons and classes, and the relative ignoring of weapons and classes that may need more love. The easier the game becomes, the more credits are readily available, which means the less incentive people will have to spend real money on packs in the store.

The conspiracy theory yes - we've talked about this too.  In reality, I suspect Bioware is quite out of touch with its true playerbase (not just the elite portion on BSN)...  the game's actually becoming truly daunting for newer players given the store system hasn't changed, but the number of items in it has increased dramatically.

Also as someone else stated already - most folks aren't asking for the game to be made easier - but not for the difficulty to be increased either.  Its only a few ubers that ask for difficulty increases, and the super small platinum player base is proof enough that this is not the market Bioware needs to be aiming for.

You want the newer player to be super excited when they unlock a Typhoon, see it be such an awesome weapon that they'll want to max it out (weight is a key factor for upgrades).  Not for someone to unlock an UR and go MEH, its really not that good, why should I bother spending on packs?

I'm sure this isn't the only driving factor in the way balance changes are done (I would assume it's about 50% about making money and 50% about gameplay, but I could be way off), but I'm also sure that it factors in fairly strongly, because otherwise, how would they be able to continue to churn out new weapons/kits/maps/etc.? 

We've asked but I'm not sure Bioware will ever tell us how good the store is for them.  We do know the ME3 MP playerbase isn't nearly what it is with some other games.

I do believe what Bryan Johnson has said that part of Bioware's overall intent is to preserve interest in MP, and they feel variety is important.  I think they've just confused variety/personal choices with diversity...  because their balancing philosophy seeks to make for an equal diversity in the way.

People get bored of playing a few kits sure, so if the other kits were made better, there would be tons more incentive to play them.  The buff all the other stuffs first approach works far better, than forcing the hands/twisting arms to get people to play the other stuffs.  Unfortunately, Bioware has adopted the latter approach.  Which is truly quite offensive an approach I find, because its like they're telling you what you can/can't do and how to play the game.

Does it mean we won't ever see a nerf or two?  No - that could still be done, but it should truly be super rare and only in extreme circumstances, certainly not just based on usage/overuse data.

I doubt there's one single game that use the first aproach. I doubt that there's any example on other games of situatuions where a lot of things got buff to be as good as one OP thing, I strongly doubt that you can find any example of that...

I think it's important to note that this is a relatively unique style of MP game. The sheer amount of kits/powers/weapons, plus the fact that so much of the game has been added in after the fact, means that the approach to the game will probably be relatively new/unique. So in that regard, it probably WOULD be very hard to find a comparable example, for whatever that's worth.

still, the second aproach is the one that works, even on this unique environment, and there's not one single developer crazy enough to try the first aproach..

[LeandroBraz]

E71 wrote...

Oh my god a wall of text and smilies. I'm so not reading that crap.

Your loss..

[CmnDwnWrkn]

What do you mean "WE'RE trying to help you?" You work for BioWare?

[IndigoVitare]

Xerorei wrote...

Having read the entire OP I must say, people who explain why nerfs/buffs exist seem to always leave out the stacked deck changes done to the Enemies..

Geth: Stun spam, cover flusher, rocket troopers firing when stasis/lashed/immobilized.
Pyro flames being longer than the graphic, pyro flames going through cover they shouldn't be able to.

Cerberus: Atlas DoT rocket, atlases grabbing people through walls, atlas Synch Kill being done instantly, Dragoons, engineer turret spam, DRAGOONS, guardians being able to shield/shoot (and paladin's can't).

Reapers: Banshee instant synch kills, that's pretty much it.

Collectors: Everything being possessed at once. Praetorians shooting through cover, Scions shooting through cover, also cluster bomb spam.

All things can be "Worked Around" typically, until they can't, when there is nothing you can do BUT die, that's when headphones get flung off. (Like the Atlas that grabbed me through the wall I was taking cover and synch killing me, out of nowhere).

And people who complain about nerfs tend to leave out the massive universal buffs we've received over the course of the game.

Gear as a whole essentially represents a... what... 15% improvement to anything? There's level IV equipment. 6 Medigel instead of 5. Headshots on all bosses.

The game, now, is easier than it has ever been before. Players have more options, more choice, more benefits to maximise effectiveness in any situation. It is laughable to claim that the game is getting harder.

[Grunt_Platform]

ZoM_Head wrote...

Eg, the M-8 and GPR need a nice buff in damage, yet so little requests for those.

Man, I see at least one request for a GPR buff daily (or.. almost daily). I try to bump every one of those. Some people seem to hate the idea of buffing it for some reason. 
I'm also seriously trying to argue for an M-8 Avenger buff, but people keep saying "it's meant to be bad". 

I just want a better baseline for Assault Rifle power level..

Modifié par EvanKester, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:38 .

[neteng101]

LeandroBraz wrote...

This is literally the worse example I  ever saw, and it will take a long, long time before I find something near worse. Did you even thought this through?

You can't even explain to us why this is the worse example you ever saw?  Perhaps because what I said is nothing but the simple fact and reality.

This is literally what Bioware's nerfs amount to - if something is too good, we must nerf it to keep other things ie. "lessers" from becoming irrelevant.  And Bioware's flawed definition of too good is if everyone uses it a lot, then it has to be too good.

It seeks to level the playing field.  It is very much a communist/socialist philosophy.  It does not reward greatness/goodness but punishes it instead.  It seeks sameness - you can pick the color of the car you want, size/shape/etc, but we're going to mandate all cars can only go this fast and limit them.

Its a terribble terrible dictatorship of the playerbase.  Its extremely offensive and impinges on choice and freedom.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

IndigoVitare wrote...

Xerorei wrote...

Having read the entire OP I must say, people who explain why nerfs/buffs exist seem to always leave out the stacked deck changes done to the Enemies..

Geth: Stun spam, cover flusher, rocket troopers firing when stasis/lashed/immobilized.
Pyro flames being longer than the graphic, pyro flames going through cover they shouldn't be able to.

Cerberus: Atlas DoT rocket, atlases grabbing people through walls, atlas Synch Kill being done instantly, Dragoons, engineer turret spam, DRAGOONS, guardians being able to shield/shoot (and paladin's can't).

Reapers: Banshee instant synch kills, that's pretty much it.

Collectors: Everything being possessed at once. Praetorians shooting through cover, Scions shooting through cover, also cluster bomb spam.

All things can be "Worked Around" typically, until they can't, when there is nothing you can do BUT die, that's when headphones get flung off. (Like the Atlas that grabbed me through the wall I was taking cover and synch killing me, out of nowhere).

And people who complain about nerfs tend to leave out the massive universal buffs we've received over the course of the game.

Gear as a whole essentially represents a... what... 15% improvement to anything? There's level IV equipment. 6 Medigel instead of 5. Headshots on all bosses.

The game, now, is easier than it has ever been before. Players have more options, more choice, more benefits to maximise effectiveness in any situation. It is laughable to claim that the game is getting harder.

I would argue, for most characters, that the enemy buffs have outpaced benefits extended to the players.  There are a handful of characters that are so powerful, it is easy to forget that the game has gotten harder for most character types.  For example, the game has gotten harder for all characters with 555-750 base health/shields who don't have a shield recharge ability or other type of damage reduction.

[neteng101]

LeandroBraz wrote...

Agree. The game is a lot easier now for me than when the DLC was released. It's more a matter ogf getting used with the changes than the enemies really being harder than before...

Or rather you have adjusted/adapted to the new level of difficulty.  It does not mean the difficulty is not increased...  only that your skill level can sufficiently adapt to it quickly enough.

Its a moot point - the difficulty is raised regardless, but you're just oblivious to it now.  Again, I state, the game shouldn't be balanced on BSN ubers and long time players.  If everyone was playing Platinum and farming it for credits, then we have a difficulty "too easy" issue, but that isn't the case at all.

[Grunt_Platform]

neteng101 wrote...

You can't even explain to us why this is the worse example you ever saw?  Perhaps because what I said is nothing but the simple fact and reality.

This is literally what Bioware's nerfs amount to - if something is too good, we must nerf it to keep other things ie. "lessers" from becoming irrelevant.  And Bioware's flawed definition of too good is if everyone uses it a lot, then it has to be too good.

It seeks to level the playing field.  It is very much a communist/socialist philosophy.  It does not reward greatness/goodness but punishes it instead.  It seeks sameness - you can pick the color of the car you want, size/shape/etc, but we're going to mandate all cars can only go this fast and limit them.

Its a terribble terrible dictatorship of the playerbase.  Its extremely offensive and impinges on choice and freedom.

The reason nobody can explain what's so bad about it is just that there are so many things wrong with the comparison. Maybe GodlessPaladin would've given you a thorough counter argument, he seemed to have endless patience for arguments.

Let's just start at the basics though: You are oversimplifying both sides of your comparison hideously. Keeping the game balanced in order to facilitate variety isn't even remotely similar to communism or whatever you're imagining. I could also argue that  having the bulk of the player base using the same kits, with the same weapons and beating the highest difficulties regardless of skill level is creating a pretty terrible sameness.

Also... there's actually a good reason most roads in North America have speed limits? Not every road in the world can be the autobahns.

EDIT: The biggest problem? Your argument has free-wheeling, faulty comparisons to all kinds of issues that are both bigger than balance changes in a video game, and way off topic. I don't know about you, but I seriously don't want to have to get in an argument about the necessity of speed limits on highways on a forum about things like jiggly quarian bum-bums and defeating the minions of robot-space-cthulhus. 

Modifié par EvanKester, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:56 .

[gethinych]

My two penn'orth on enemy power creep: we now have gear, and level IV consumables.  I know many don't use these (particularly the latter), but I find they make a huge difference.

I like this thread: it is full of w... civility.  (In the main.)

neteng101 wrote...

*snip*

The buff all the other stuffs first approach works far better, than forcing the hands/twisting arms to get people to play the other stuffs.  Unfortunately, Bioware has adopted the latter approach.  Which is truly quite offensive an approach I find, because its like they're telling you what you can/can't do and how to play the game.

They've explained numerous times that buffing everything else to the level of whatever is currently OP would be a huge amount of work.

BuckshotSamurai wrote...

@ Leandro (and XMark): It was a good read and an especially well thought out and presented explanation. My point wasn't to be taken negatively and if it was, I apologise. I only meant that DXM is a very good writer and didn't need the smilies to illustrate his point. As an older gamer/poster, the use of smilies really does seem, maybe not childish, perhaps adolescent, and could somewhat lessen the mesage of an otherwise excellent topic opener. 

I had sort of a similar reaction to BuckshotSamurai just at very first glance, but I think the smileys worked well, particularly given the points were so well made.  Also - and see emphasis added above - one perhaps has to consider the audience for whom the points would be most useful....

:innocent:

[Dark Tlaloc]

IndigoVitare wrote...

Xerorei wrote...

Having read the entire OP I must say, people who explain why nerfs/buffs exist seem to always leave out the stacked deck changes done to the Enemies..

Geth: Stun spam, cover flusher, rocket troopers firing when stasis/lashed/immobilized.
Pyro flames being longer than the graphic, pyro flames going through cover they shouldn't be able to.

Cerberus: Atlas DoT rocket, atlases grabbing people through walls, atlas Synch Kill being done instantly, Dragoons, engineer turret spam, DRAGOONS, guardians being able to shield/shoot (and paladin's can't).

Reapers: Banshee instant synch kills, that's pretty much it.

Collectors: Everything being possessed at once. Praetorians shooting through cover, Scions shooting through cover, also cluster bomb spam.

All things can be "Worked Around" typically, until they can't, when there is nothing you can do BUT die, that's when headphones get flung off. (Like the Atlas that grabbed me through the wall I was taking cover and synch killing me, out of nowhere).

And people who complain about nerfs tend to leave out the massive universal buffs we've received over the course of the game.

Gear as a whole essentially represents a... what... 15% improvement to anything? There's level IV equipment. 6 Medigel instead of 5. Headshots on all bosses.

The game, now, is easier than it has ever been before. Players have more options, more choice, more benefits to maximise effectiveness in any situation. It is laughable to claim that the game is getting harder.

It depends on what you mean by harder. The Geth are, as a whole, harder than they were when they started out (mostly because they're still broken as hell). The Collectors are hard to beat without good teamwork, even on as low as silver sometimes, which really isn't something that could be claimed before. Finally, Platinum is harder than any difficulty we had before, so in that sense, the game IS harder.

However, you're definitely right that in a lot of ways, the game has been made easier and/or more accessible/customizable/ etc. I absolutely love the addition of Gear, as it has given me a lot more in the way of options, and let's me custom tailor my characters how I'd like.

[OuterRim]

While I don't mind when changes actually balance the game. most buffs & nerfs actually unbalance the game because most of BW's changes are not about balancing the game at all. I detailed this in another thread.

[SapientesGladio]

Is this real life?

[Ziegrif]

LeandroBraz wrote...

Striker93175 wrote...

Defend nerfs all you want... bottom line:

Someone, somewhere, should totally do a game based on this image...

I'd play it.

[Tonymac]

You know - I would not mind it if they only had to nerf the stuff once in the name of 'balance'. New kits and new guns can affect the supposed 'balance'. I get that. If you don't do the maths - and QA test your product, you can make the player base do it for you. Its the lazy man's way out. Why have a QA team? They sure as freak aren't testing this stuff before putting it out. I dunno what they are doing - but then again the QA I did in the Navy was for the Submarine Safe program. We accept ZERO defects. Those who commit defects are immediately re-trained, put on notice, and if they mess up again for the rest of their careers they are done.

But these guys at Bioware - especially that "Marauder Sheilds" dude- nerf, re-nerf, post-re-re-nerf and in a few cases micro-buff the same damn item or class. Get off it already. Test your stuffs man! The game is fun - and you STILL keep tweaking. I work hard, have fun, earn a good gun, and BAM - its junk. That trash is trifling. Besides that, micro-buffing a few worthless guns does not make things kosher.

I want Bioware to make a concerted effort to spend less time harassing the players. The constant nitpicking and micro-managing is getting old. Attacking players' favorite classes or weapons should not be the answer. Quality product from the start is the right way to do it.

[gethinych]

neteng101 wrote...

*snippy-snip*

It seeks to level the playing field.  It is very much a communist/socialist philosophy.  It does not reward greatness/goodness but punishes it instead.  It seeks sameness - you can pick the color of the car you want, size/shape/etc, but we're going to mandate all cars can only go this fast and limit them.

Its a terribble terrible dictatorship of the playerbase.  Its extremely offensive and impinges on choice and freedom.

You should talk to someone who unwillingly lived under an actual communist dictatorship and see if they share the view that your experiences have been roughly equivalent.  I think unfortunately they might find your last two sentences themselves offensive.

[Jayhau]

Reading logic makes me feel dirty

[neteng101]

EvanKester wrote...

Yeah. But I much prefer discussions about the merits of this or that buff or nerf to "WAAAH NERFING BAD. BIOWARE NERFS ALL THE GOOD THINGS THAT MAKE THE GAME FUN," and the counterarguments thereof.

Well it was the OP that started this topic on why nerfing exists.  Its a general nerfing topic vs. one that discusses specific nerfs.  Its the general concept and philosophy of Bioware's nerfing that really irks me, because I find it rather offensive that a company feels they can dictate how the players play the game.

What I mean is, instead of wasting time talking about myths or nonsense like that, we could actually have a civil conversation about how bad the Destroyer nerf was (not very), and the like.

Personally I liked the Destroyer changes...  it was balanced/tweaked so I can do more shields now with the missile launcher.  Yet I still see the problem it brings with low ammo weapons and obvious choices being removed for some folks that liked doing something a little different like using 2 -> 3 shot shottys on him.

Maybe, since Eric Fagnan dropped a few hints in the thread for the balance change, we could discuss what other changes it signals (My guess?... Probably a buff to the collector weapons and the typhoon, since I can't imagine what else the magazine bonus would make too hard to balance).

Speaking of that Typhoon, they really overreacted without proper data when they nerfed it.  One week in the game, while its new, everyone that gets a gun would want to use it.  That multiplier nerf was an absolute overreaction and a really rash decision.

I honestly think the power creep on the enemy side is vastly overstated compared to power creep on the player side.

How so?  I can play with the same weapons/kits I used prior to the DLC, and the difference is noticeable.  They didn't even add any weapon in the DLC that was worthwhile.  So unless you're talking specific to people doing Volus Shield Boosting tricks like Rio container gaming and the Turian Ghost, I just don't see it.

Again, your ability to adapt and skills to deal with increased difficulty doesn't reflect everyone else's.  That you've become oblivious to the enemy side power creep does not mean it didn't happen.

They don't balance directly on usage but they clearly use that as a guide for what they should investigate—IE: In the case of the Piranha they actually asked us why it was the most used Shotgun. I'm still waiting for the payoff on the feedback they got regarding other light shotguns, but we did get a huge Wraith buff out of that (now maybe something that isn't Ultra Rare could get a buff eh?).

This issue has been covered pretty thoroughly.

Sure you use the Piranha as an example.  What about the Typhoon?  That was a stupid overreaction with limited data.  And what of the Demolisher nerf?  I play mostly PUGs, and Demolishers are quite overused, and most of them are pretty terrible indeed.  They camp, can't do much else but spam grenades and die very easily.

There's weapons that are awesome that Bioware won't likely touch like the Claymore and Graal.  Why?  Because these are not overused and takes skill to use.

Fact is Eric constantly spouts this overuse garbage as a reason to justify nerfs.

Personally, heck, I could care less about the Demolisher nerf, they're just a pain in most PUGs to have around, but that's proof that the balance philosophy at BIoware is truly flawed.

[Azrael 007]

I respect your post. Very mature despite the title. I don't understand why they release such powerful things in the first place. I feel that they had to of known that the TGI was LOL incredible compared to many other kits before release.
It's one thing to not give a kid the perfect toy. It's another to give a kid the perfect toy then come into his room and break it or damage it just so he'll remember to play with the other things you gave him. Uh.. possibly a bad metaphor. I've been awake for a long time